AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series > Fate/ Series

Notices

View Poll Results: Fate/Zero - Episode 19 Rating
Perfect 10 55 43.65%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 39 30.95%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 22 17.46%
7 out of 10 : Good 7 5.56%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 0.79%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.79%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.79%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 126. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-05-17, 16:18   Link #221
Klashikari
Swords•Maidens Maniac
*Graphic Designer
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 28
Send a message via Skype™ to Klashikari
Kiritsugu's choices and actions are by no mean "universal", let alone "absolutely correct". That being said, there is a line of logic and conviction in there, beyond simply being a "douchebag".
I can't say I entierely agree with everything he has done, but most of what he has done has a specific reason which is actually acceptable to some degree, moreso in this scenario due to the circumstances going against him.

I'm more disagreeing with the whole point that "he enjoys doing that" and "doing for the hell of it".
Klashikari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-17, 16:26   Link #222
brandon279
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
That doesn't stop the fact the prana supply is -not- dependant of the contract at all, so your point is moot.It has been demonstrated by Caster and his monster that they would be self sufficient if they have enough supply from "somewhere else". What matters with a servant is the prana, regardless where it comes from. Another point, but outside of Fate Zero prove that as well, but going any farther would be a spoiler.
no my dear, it is your point which is moot.

no master, no link, no link servant disappears, it is simple as that.

no contract= no binding to the world. no binding = disappear (with maximum few days delay if you have certain ability) even with unlimited mana supply






no contract from the magus: servant gets no mana from him/her (except if the magus was part of the contract with the master)
--------------
edit:
contract provides: binding to the word and mana supply if the master has mana(or knows a volunteer)

servant needs both binding and mana to stay in the word.

Karyth cant provide mana (after his injury), so no servant with limited mana would choose him.

contracts can be done by: summoning, using command seal or having "affair", i cant see any remaining servant having affair with him to get binding and still disappear due lack of mana,

Last edited by Klashikari; 2012-05-17 at 16:42. Reason: spoiler at this point
brandon279 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-17, 16:27   Link #223
Haak
Forever Alone...
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 23
I think in this case it might have been worth putting in a scene where Kiritsugu talks about all the possible ways he can save Natalia without endangering the lives of others, but painfully confirming there's no other way, but perhaps the time constraints simply didn't allow it.

But it should be obvious why he did what he did, anyway. He's already experienced what happens if he doesn't act, and in the most brutal possible way. Such experiences are unlikely to leave you with room to compromise or be flexible.
__________________
Haak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-17, 16:33   Link #224
mAc Chaos
King of Heroes
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 28
A Servant needs two things to stay in the world.

A Master, and a mana supply. The Master themselves is more like an anchor that causes the Servant from disappearing back into the spirit world, like a balloon getting carried off by the wind. But they also need mana to do anything.
mAc Chaos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-17, 16:33   Link #225
Klashikari
Swords•Maidens Maniac
*Graphic Designer
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 28
Send a message via Skype™ to Klashikari
1) There is no such thing as "part of the contract" for the non master magus: a contract binds the Master and the Servant without any other party (Lancer even mentioned that there was nothing "legit" done with Sola).

2) True, the contract serve as the binding part, and? Actually your example (which I had to delete) supplement the fact that no matter how incompetent the master is, a simple contract can do the trick. And that's without the CS. I guess I should redirect the discussion there as we are too close to spoilers.
Klashikari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-17, 16:43   Link #226
LunarMoon
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by mAc Chaos View Post
But in real life, solders go back into war zones to save stranded comrades all the time, even though they're putting themselves at risk.
Individual soldiers may do so, but no military commander in his right mind is going to risk the deaths of dozens of soldiers in order to save one private (Natalia). Part of what seperates the brutal realities of warfare from the romantacized, heroic portrayal of it in fiction is that in real life, it really is a number's game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brandon279 View Post
for me it was mass murder crime, the japanese had declared their acceptance of conditioned surrender to the world and lets dont forget that the target of the bombs: civilians

the aim of bombing was to scare Russia, nothing more.
Then you disagree with the vast majority of historians out there, who argue that the alternative would have resulted in a much higher death toll.
__________________
To consume all good forms of Japanimation,
To stream new productions from NicoNico's Station,
To judge the legitimacy between Subs and Dubs,
To await an anime for the VN Muv-Luv,
Lunar.Moon.
Downloading from Hulu at the speed of light,
To remain within the bounds of copyrights!
http://myanimelist.net/profile/LunarMoon
LunarMoon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-17, 16:47   Link #227
Alaya
Counter Force
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
I think a couple of people forget something.

1. It's not only thinking about the outbreak. We have to think about dealing with the Church and Mage Association too. For example, if the plane landed but the zombie/bees spread out into the airport, then both factions would be summoned. In that case, we can basically say goodbye to New York's airport and to a certain extent, some area of New York too. Both faction would just kill everyone in the area or in the worse case, turn the airport area into a war zone between the two factions too.

That's the possibility that Kiritsugu tried to avoid the most, in my opinion.

2. A servant can stay in the world, as long as they can get a mana supply. And there's another mana supply than a Master, people's life force. Since magical energy composes of two fraction, ode (life force) and mana (obtain from the environment), a Servant can suck people life force to sustain themselves until he can find a new master.

I would not say Lancer would do that, but it's still a possibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post
Individual soldiers may do so, but no military commander in his right mind is going to risk the deaths of dozens of soldiers in order to save one private (Natalia). Part of what seperates the brutal realities of warfare from the romantacized, heroic portrayal of it in fiction is that in real life, it really is a number's game.
And that's why Kiritsugu hates Heroic tales :P It just fools people and hide the brutality of war under the premise of valor.
__________________
Fate/Zero: This was the tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and was driven to despair by them.

Madoka: This was the tale of magical girls whose wishes are pure and by them are driven to despair.
Alaya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-17, 17:08   Link #228
brandon279
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post
Then you disagree with the vast majority of historians out there, who argue that the alternative would have resulted in a much higher death toll.
how many of those historians know that Japan had already declared conditional surrender?
how many of them know that bombing civilian is war crime?

and how many of them are non American?
==============
@ Alaya


your point number 2 is wrong, any more explaining would be a spoiler

in point number one:
the church cant eliminate the whole airport if the bee are within the plane, so the primary question: Can Natali land the plane?
she seemed sure that she would land it if Kiritsugu stopped making her laugh.
Kiritsugu didnt bother to ask if she can or not, he had a stinger ready from the beginning, why bother asking?
thats the retarded mentality that i am trying to make you (and other people) realize.

Last edited by brandon279; 2012-05-17 at 17:19.
brandon279 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-17, 17:29   Link #229
Xagzan
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by brandon279 View Post
how many of those historians know that Japan had already declared conditional surrender?
how many of them know that bombing civilian is war crime?

and how many of them are non American?
==============
@ Alaya


your point number 2 is wrong, any more explaining would be a spoiler

in point number one:
the church cant eliminate the whole airport if the bee are within the plane, so the primary question: Can Natali land the plane?
she seemed sure that she would land it if Kiritsugu stopped making her laugh.
Kiritsugu didnt bother to ask if she can or not, he had a stinger ready from the beginning, why bother asking?
thats the retarded mentality that i am trying to make you (and other people) realize.
Why is that the primary question for Kiritsugu? Whether or not she could land the plane doesn't address his ideology's primary concern; even if she somehow landed it, what likelihood was there she actually exit the plane without even ones of the bees sneaking off with her and escaping into a civilian population? I've seen it said on this thread before that Kiritsugu always goes for the 0% risk option whenever possible. If that's true, then obviously he would never risk even one bee escaping with Natalia.
Xagzan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-17, 17:37   Link #230
brandon279
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
why would he ask? !!!!

may be to avoid unnecessary death of dear person?
may be to preserve a good partner so they would be able prevent more incidents thus saving more lives than just Kiritsugu alone?

well, the question is the primary one because it differentiate between :
1- it was necessary
2- it was easy

1- Emya is sane
2- Emya is bastard.
brandon279 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-17, 17:42   Link #231
biodude711
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: USA
Age: 23
Send a message via AIM to biodude711
I'm actually curious, what's with all the Kiritsugu hate, saying that he is a bastard?
Is it because of his character? His actions?
__________________
biodude711 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-17, 17:50   Link #232
Ithekro
Warning
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 37
As a historian, I am quite aware the the Japanese were attempting to find a conditional surrender. The Allies wanted unconditional surrender. The Japanese were attempting to make new negatiations with the Soviets (right before the Soviets double crossed them and invaded Manchuria). Basically the war would have continued for several more weeks regardless due to the combined stubbornness of the Allies and Japanese governments. The fire bombings would have continued and if negotiations failed, or the military could rally up the people to fight on, invasion of Japan. Tens of thousand more would die from starvation as well as the combat and bombings.

And there is the knowledge factor. The Americans can't read the Japanese minds. If they did they would have figured out that they felt backed into a corner by our reaction to their invasion of China. With the combined mindsets of the Americans and the Japanese, there basically was no way to avoid that war. And because of all this, the Atomic bombing was also unavoidable. Because the alternative would have been more dead and no proof of the horrors of the bomb. Those horrors have stopped us from using it in combat, even once, since 1945.

Somedays you just have to left people die for the greater good. Churchell was forced to let a city be bombed even though the British knew the Germans were coming. Because if they did anything ahead of time the Germans would have found out the british had broken their codes, and then change them, endangering all Allied operations in Europe ans Africa.

It isn't pretty. It isn't kind. But sometimes it is the most logical solution to the problem.
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai! Signature by ganbaru
Rena's Saimoe Take Home List 2014: Dairenji Suzuka.Misawa Maho.
Ithekro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-17, 18:00   Link #233
brandon279
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
form what i know: Japan tried to use Russia as representative for negotiation for many days, Japan sent a message (received by the Americans) declaring that they would surrender but with better conditions (not removing the emperor) (the funny thing: usa never cared to remove him, it was just a justification).

it was avoidable.


but the administration wanted to scare the Soviet.


it is simple to accept if you are non American, but if you are one, your bias would prevent you.
brandon279 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-17, 18:23   Link #234
Click This
CEO of Asia!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 167 East 51st St, New York, NY, 10022 - N40° 45.4097', W073° 58.2709'
Send a message via MSN to Click This
Just saying, a MANPAD can't down a widebody A300 like that. Damage yes, shoot down, no.
__________________


Click This is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-17, 18:34   Link #235
Ithekro
Warning
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 37
Also landing is the most difficult part of flying. One could land it, but usually someone with single engine experiance would need tlo be talked down by someone from the tower.

But that still doesn't answer the other problem. The mage and churches policies about no witnesses in magical/supernatural activities.
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai! Signature by ganbaru
Rena's Saimoe Take Home List 2014: Dairenji Suzuka.Misawa Maho.
Ithekro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-17, 18:36   Link #236
Click This
CEO of Asia!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 167 East 51st St, New York, NY, 10022 - N40° 45.4097', W073° 58.2709'
Send a message via MSN to Click This
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Also landing is the most difficult part of flying. One could land it, but usually someone with single engine experiance would need tlo be talked down by someone from the tower.

But that still doesn't answer the other problem. The mage and churches policies about no witnesses in magical/supernatural activities.
If they know how to use ILS, then they should be good.
__________________


Click This is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-17, 18:54   Link #237
Xagzan
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by brandon279 View Post
why would he ask? !!!!

may be to avoid unnecessary death of dear person?
may be to preserve a good partner so they would be able prevent more incidents thus saving more lives than just Kiritsugu alone?
Ok...but I don't see how that provides a reasonable answer to my question about why her ability to land the plane should have been his first concern. Again, from what I'm gathering about Kiritsugu from everyone here, I don't think that first point about her survival was actually his primary concern, even if he wished it could be. And the second one is extremely hypothetical, and I doubt he'd have acted upon such a scenario.
Xagzan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-17, 18:55   Link #238
Ithekro
Warning
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 37
Also remember this is suppose to be something like 1981.
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai! Signature by ganbaru
Rena's Saimoe Take Home List 2014: Dairenji Suzuka.Misawa Maho.
Ithekro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-17, 19:05   Link #239
GDB
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Also remember this is suppose to be something like 1981.
I'm thinking it might be 1982. I know that's nitpicking a bit, but this is based on evidence (since people were unsure a few pages back when it took place). Look at episode 17, time stamp 12:42 on the UTW version. Kirei's document on Kiritsugu specifically mentions 1982, and as this event is supposed to be a big one as far as his reputation goes (Kirei and Tokiomi were talking about it in the first few episodes), it's likely what's being referred to.
GDB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-17, 19:05   Link #240
Click This
CEO of Asia!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 167 East 51st St, New York, NY, 10022 - N40° 45.4097', W073° 58.2709'
Send a message via MSN to Click This
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Also remember this is suppose to be something like 1981.
ILS was very advanced in 1981/1982. She could have easily landed the jet.
Also, there's a fluke with "no witnesses" as the cockpit has a CVR(Cockpit voice recorder) which can withstand some of the larger explosions out there and blabber away Kiritsugu's entire conversation.
__________________


Click This is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:46.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.