AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Related Topics > General Anime

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-05-17, 05:51   Link #41
totoum
Gamer
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 26
Send a message via MSN to totoum
Quote:
Originally Posted by Random32 View Post
Yet another example of "shounen" shounen in Jump compared to a non-"shounen" shounen series in a magazine that doesn't focus on "shounen" shounen. .
Not sure I understood what you wanted to say so I'll say it just in case ,Kuroko no Basket is published in Shonen jump like Slam Dunk was

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
Whether "shounen" is a demographic or not doesn't really change the fact that there are a lot of trends and story elements that are strongly associated with the demographic, possibly to the point of it warranting its own genre. In addition, "story elements strongly associated with the shounen demographic" doesn't really roll off the the tongue the way "shounen" does.

I think it's just a matter of being nitpicky with words.
The "story elements strongly associated with the shounen demographic" are actualy "story elements strongly associated with action mangas published in shonen jump"

It doesn't include romantic comedies or slice of life shows.
__________________
totoum is offline  
Old 2012-05-17, 06:57   Link #42
Random32
Also a Lolicon
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
I was intending to say the thing I've been saying for every post so far. Not all shounen is "shounen" and it has been that way for a long time--Dear Boys, the other example of not "shounen" enough shounen started in 1989.
Random32 is offline  
Old 2012-05-17, 07:27   Link #43
Qilin
Romanticist
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
The "story elements strongly associated with the shounen demographic" are actualy "story elements strongly associated with action mangas published in shonen jump"

It doesn't include romantic comedies or slice of life shows.
In that case, it's just a problem with the labeling, isn't it?

A lot of people tend to refer to the "shounen battle genre" as just "shounen", but I can easily see how its usage might be a cause for misunderstanding when certain romantic comedy titles also fall within the shounen demographic.

But parroting the old "shounen is a demographic" line doesn't really say much to address the problem. It's just a different way of using a term. Nowadays, it's as much a collection of genres as it is a demographic anyway.
__________________
Damaged Goods
"There’s an up higher than up, but at the very top, down is all there is."
Qilin is offline  
Old 2012-05-17, 12:39   Link #44
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
Its not an "old line" - its the definition of the term. Misusing it is not "just a different way" any more than is using "peanut-butter users" to describe "peanut-butter" is. It just shows that some western fans aren't using the word correctly.

I don't think anyone claiming there's been a shift in focus in what shounen publishers put out has done the numbers to support the feeling. However, qualitatively, there does seem to have been a shift in storylines and art styles in the entire field of anime. The "young boys action" subsection of what shounen publishers produce has also been affected by that.

Is it a problem or is it just a natural evolution? It certainly is what current japanese consumers (the ones spending the lion's share of money) seem to want.
Vexx is offline  
Old 2012-05-17, 12:53   Link #45
DonQuigleone
Knight Errant
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 26
While Shonen is certainly a demographic indicator first and foremost, there is certainly a shonen "Genre" that spans both Action and Sport Manga. You can't necessarily call it "Action" or adventure either, because sometimes the formula comes up without any real action at all (EG all those Shonen cooking manga).

Likewise, you can argue that Shojo romance is a genre of it's own too, it's quite different from non-Shojo Romance, and tends to use the same story elements repeatedly.

Really, the issue comes down to the fact that we're using Western Genre labels, for Japanese media. I doubt the Japanese have any trouble with this.
DonQuigleone is offline  
Old 2012-05-17, 13:27   Link #46
MisaoFan
Prefectural Magical Girl
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Paris, France
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
While Shonen is certainly a demographic indicator first and foremost, there is certainly a shonen "Genre" that spans both Action and Sport Manga. You can't necessarily call it "Action" or adventure either, because sometimes the formula comes up without any real action at all (EG all those Shonen cooking manga).
The "shounen" subgenre you are talking is called nekketsu (hot blood in Japanese).
__________________
<img src=http://i.imgur.com/O5yUSnx.png border=0 alt= />I will protect you from the darkness and I change my destiny.
MyAnimeList
MisaoFan is offline  
Old 2012-05-17, 18:20   Link #47
Fuyuno
Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Sorry for not taking part in a discussion that I started but I just couldn't get online if my wife is around. Thanks for replying though.

My only reason to made this thread is I worry when someday(not today) the anime that intended for male audiences would be filled with teenage girls behaving like kindergarten kids or crazy yandere bitches with blood splattering all over place. Female ones would be nothing but ambiguously or obvious gay bishies making out with each other or horny bishies raping plain-looking girl. Just like some other members point out, it is really scary when fanservice is preferred over substance.
Fuyuno is offline  
Old 2012-05-17, 18:38   Link #48
DonQuigleone
Knight Errant
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisaoFan View Post
The "shounen" subgenre you are talking is called nekketsu (hot blood in Japanese).
Thing is, that designation is never used in English, which is part of the problem. Go onto Baka-updates or ANN...
DonQuigleone is offline  
Old 2012-05-17, 20:16   Link #49
Qilin
Romanticist
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Its not an "old line" - its the definition of the term. Misusing it is not "just a different way" any more than is using "peanut-butter users" to describe "peanut-butter" is. It just shows that some western fans aren't using the word correctly.
Why would it be incorrect to use a term if it doesn't correspond to its traditional usage?

The thing is, meanings change over time. They are dependent on society and context, so the change is somewhat inevitable. The more pressing objection concerning this issue I can see is the confusion between the contemporary definition and the traditional definition of the term that may arise, but I don't think I've seen anyone approach the matter from that point.

I mean, as far as I know, so many people these days use the word "incorrectly", perhaps to the point of exceeding those who care to "ed?cate" them on the "correct" meaning. Would it still make it wrong usage in that case.
__________________
Damaged Goods
"There’s an up higher than up, but at the very top, down is all there is."
Qilin is offline  
Old 2012-05-17, 22:35   Link #50
Coldlight
Sayaka★Magica
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Under the piercing blue sky
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
Why would it be incorrect to use a term if it doesn't correspond to its traditional usage?
It's linguistic corruption. Just because a misused and abused term is very widespread, doesn't mean it's correct. Also, assuming something is true because a lot of people now use it is a logical fallacy called argumentum ad populum or bandwagon fallacy (e.g. "Xs of people can't be wrong", where X is plural). It only proves that a belief is popular, not that it is true.

You are right that meanings change over time, but it doesn't change the fact that the corruption of the word stems from incorrect usage. Also, I don't think usage of the term "shounen" in English warrants splitting it into "traditional" and "contemporary" definitions. There is only one definition. The other is a corruption of the definition.
__________________
Coldlight is offline  
Old 2012-05-17, 22:54   Link #51
Qilin
Romanticist
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldlight View Post
It's linguistic corruption. Just because a misused and abused term is very widespread, doesn't mean it's correct. Also, assuming something is true because a lot of people now use it is a logical fallacy called argumentum ad populum or bandwagon fallacy (e.g. "Xs of people can't be wrong", where X is plural). It only proves that a belief is popular, not that it is true.

You are right that meanings change over time, but it doesn't change the fact that the corruption of the word stems from incorrect usage. Also, I don't think usage of the term "shounen" in English warrants splitting it into "traditional" and "contemporary" definitions. There is only one definition. The other is a corruption of the definition.
Corruption, distortion, evolution, change... All are words with similar meanings referring to the development of language over time, albeit with different tones. Which one you use reflects your emotions regarding the issue.

Bringing up argumentum ad populum here doesn't change a thing. Consensus is the very mechanism by which word meanings are agreed upon after all. Meanings evolve over time according the context they are developed in. In the first place, language is arbitrary by nature, so the only thing that matters is that the equivalent meanings attached to a word are shared among a large group of people.

How the change in meaning came about is irrelevant. The important thing is that it catches on and becomes a common symbol for a group of people.
__________________
Damaged Goods
"There’s an up higher than up, but at the very top, down is all there is."
Qilin is offline  
Old 2012-05-17, 23:36   Link #52
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
Except that the audience from whom the term comes from still constitute the vast majority of users -> the japanese. The term has only "changed" with outlier groups.
Vexx is offline  
Old 2012-05-17, 23:57   Link #53
Qilin
Romanticist
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Except that the audience from whom the term comes from still constitute the vast majority of users -> the japanese. The term has only "changed" with outlier groups.
Like I said, the term's use and representation is already agreed upon by a particular group of people, which, in this case, is probably a good deal of the English-speaking anime community. Whether the group is an outlier or not is not important as long as there is a general consensus among its members.

Obviously, if you juxtapose how the Japanese and English communities use their terms, the two would be very different. However, that is likely indicative of the fact that the two communities hardly have opportunities to interact with each other. In that case, why should one group change how they use a term on account of another group, which they seldom communicate with?
__________________
Damaged Goods
"There’s an up higher than up, but at the very top, down is all there is."
Qilin is offline  
Old 2012-05-17, 23:57   Link #54
Coldlight
Sayaka★Magica
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Under the piercing blue sky
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
Consensus is the very mechanism by which word meanings are agreed upon after all.
This is just from a descriptivist approach, which emphasizes changes, as opposed to a prescriptivist approach, which focuses on standardization. It just reflects which camp you are in regarding the usage of a language.

Quote:
Meanings evolve over time according the context they are developed in.
My problem with this is that I don't think "over time" applies to the usage of the word "shounen" yet. It hasn't been all that long since "shounen" started seeing usage in English. I think at this point, it's still an oft-misused and abused term. It is not yet too late to correct what is becoming a runaway misunderstanding.
__________________
Coldlight is offline  
Old 2012-05-18, 00:13   Link #55
Triple_R
Center Attraction
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
Like I said, the term's use and representation is already agreed upon by a particular group of people, which, in this case, is probably a good deal of the English-speaking anime community. Whether the group is an outlier or not is not important as long as there is a general consensus among its members.

Obviously, if you juxtapose how the Japanese and English communities use their terms, the two would be very different.
And doesn't that cause problems? It's not good for a worldwide fanbase to be so starkly split over commonly used fandom terms. And like you said, it's their term so we should respect how they choose to use it, and abide by that.

Besides, like Coldlight points out, there's some value in standarization. It's good for people to be on the same page when it comes to the understood meanings of commonly used words. One thing that I think has really harmed anime fan discussion is too much term drift and/or lack of agreement on what a term means. "Tsundere", "Slice of Life", "Moe", lots of discussions on these are really hindered by people not being on the same page with them.
__________________
Triple_R is online now  
Old 2012-05-18, 00:34   Link #56
Qilin
Romanticist
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldlight View Post
This is just from a descriptivist approach, which emphasizes changes, as opposed to a prescriptivist approach, which focuses on standardization. It just reflects which camp you are in regarding the usage of a language.
I'm not exactly familiar with the terms you used, but can I take this to mean that it's impossible for us to come to an agreement on the nature of language? Whatever the case, let me just clarify my position:

Words in themselves are meaningless. They only gain meaning through how people use it. In a sense, they are merely symbols with mutually agreed representations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldlight View Post
My problem with this is that I don't think "over time" applies to the usage of the word "shounen" yet. It hasn't been all that long since "shounen" started seeing usage in English. I think at this point, it's still an oft-misused and abused term. It is not yet too late to correct what is becoming a runaway misunderstanding.
I'm sorry that I didn't make myself clear.

The usage of language changes according to the changes in its context. The context by itself can change in different ways. One way that I mentioned through the passage of time, which you've covered. However, there are other ways for it to change. One significant change the term has experienced, for example, is how the term's usage began to spread outside the Japanese community and how it began to be interpreted across different cultures and contexts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
And doesn't that cause problems? It's not good for a worldwide fanbase to be so starkly split over commonly used fandom terms. And like you said, it's their term so we should respect how they choose to use it, and abide by that.
There are hardly any opportunities for the two fan bases to interact. I think the very disparity that exists between their usage of terms is indicative of that. If, by chance, the two groups were to somehow become homogenous, the standardization of language usage would be a natural consequence of it.

Respect? What are you talking about? They don't own the word. Languages adopt words from other languages all the time, then subsequently indigenizing the meaning to fit its culture. Is that wrong too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
One thing that I think has really harmed anime fan discussion is too much term drift and/or lack of agreement on what a term means. "Tsundere", "Slice of Life", "Moe", lots of discussions on these are really hindered by people not being on the same page with them.
Based on my observations, it's the ones who insist that "shounen is a demographic" who are the minority in discussions I've witnessed. From your logic then, that would mean that they are the ones who aren't on the same page as everyone else.

Standardization is indeed important, but only within a group. There's no reason to adopt similar representations as other groups you hardly interact with.
__________________
Damaged Goods
"There’s an up higher than up, but at the very top, down is all there is."
Qilin is offline  
Old 2012-05-18, 01:32   Link #57
totoum
Gamer
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 26
Send a message via MSN to totoum
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
One significant change the term has experienced, for example, is how the term's usage began to spread outside the Japanese community and how it began to be interpreted across different cultures and contexts.
Sure,another exemple would be how the west uses "hentai" to describe porn anime,while "hentai"=pervert in japanese they don't use the term "hentai anime" they just say "echi anime" (hentai->h->echi) while in the west "echi" will refer to fanservice anime but not porn.

But we're still somewhat in the same general vicinity.Meanwhile people only associating shonens with action/sports/harems leads to absurd stuff like me having to look for stuff like Azumanga Daioh,Yotsuba&,K-on in the shojo part of the manga store instead of the shonen or seinen part and when I ask the people working at the store what the hell they're doing there they tell me those can't possibly be shonens so by elimination they must be shoujos.
That's happened to me quite a few times.
__________________
totoum is offline  
Old 2012-05-18, 01:56   Link #58
Coldlight
Sayaka★Magica
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Under the piercing blue sky
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
I'm not exactly familiar with the terms you used,
I am also sorry for not being clear with this part. I used those terms because I thought those were the most precise terms to best describe our opposing viewpoints. Watering it down a bit, one could take descriptivist to mean liberal, and prescriptivist as conservative, in the context of language usage.

Quote:
but can I take this to mean that it's impossible for us to come to an agreement on the nature of language?
It seems that is the case. Just as it is here, there is an ongoing "war of words" in many other places regarding the nature of language. I think the first part (before the W3C section) of this blog post best describes the two sides without being overly biased. Our dispute over the usage of "shounen" in English is just one of the many language usage skirmishes being fought in other places. Ironically, "shounen" hasn't even been accepted as an English term yet and we are here disputing over how it should be used in English.

Quote:
Whatever the case, let me just clarify my position:

Words in themselves are meaningless. They only gain meaning through how people use it. In a sense, they are merely symbols with mutually agreed representations.
This is the position of descriptivism. "The masses define what a word means." As someone from the opposing camp, I beg to differ, and I'd like to let the experts define the word. In this case, the "experts" are the smaller group of people who know best about the subject, and the Japanese, who created the word themselves. Thus to me, "shounen" is still just a demographic.

Quote:
One significant change the term has experienced, for example, is how the term's usage began to spread outside the Japanese community and how it began to be interpreted across different cultures and contexts.
The spread of the term's usage outside the Japanese community is a significant change, yes, but when it first jumped the barrier over into the English community, it still meant what it should be, a demographic. Only really recently has the misuse of the term been spreading, and as such it is not an interpretation, but a misinterpretation of what it really is.
__________________
Coldlight is offline  
Old 2012-05-18, 02:03   Link #59
Tempester
AS's "Love Live!" Fanatic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Listening to "SENTIMENTAL StepS" on repeat
Age: 23
There are already words which aptly describe the kind of manga that the ignorant English-speaking masses tend to relate shounen to. Examples would be "battle manga", "competitive manga", and "shounen battle manga". The paramount question for those who wish to change the meaning of "shounen" in English: what word do you propose to replace the original Japanese meaning which is a manga that is published in a shounen magazine?
__________________
MyAnimeList
- - - - -
Visual novel list
- - - - -
Recently completed anime:
Zettai Shougeki: Platonic Heart
JoJo's Bizarre Adventure (1993 OVA)
Girls und Panzer: Kore ga Hontou no Anzio-sen Desu!
Sakura Trick
Love Live! School Idol Project 2nd Season
Selector Infected WIXOSS
Tempester is offline  
Old 2012-05-18, 03:04   Link #60
Triple_R
Center Attraction
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
There are hardly any opportunities for the two fan bases to interact.
You might be surprised. I recall how some time ago there was a post up on this forum talking about how Japanese anime fans had translated many Anime Suki posts into Japanese in order to talk about what we were saying.

I'm also pretty sure there's some Japanese anime fans on this site who are more or less fluent in both English and Japanese.


Quote:
Respect? What are you talking about? They don't own the word. Languages adopt words from other languages all the time, then subsequently indigenizing the meaning to fit its culture. Is that wrong too?
It depends on the circumstances. If you're taking a word from a language that's not used a whole lot any more in everyday conversation (Latin, say) and indigenizing its meaning, that's one thing. But if you're taking a word from a language that's still widely in use in certain parts of the world, then how that word is used by speakers of that language is what's most important, imo. That's what I mean by "respecting how they choose to use it".

We English-speakers don't take "déjà vu" from the French and do whatever we want with it. That's because the French language is still alive and well and using "déjà vu" itself. So English-speakers understand "déjà vu" the same way the French do.

And so shounen is a demographic. If we're talking about a type of anime that's more specific than "aimed at teenage boys" then we probably should use a more specific term than shounen.


Quote:
Based on my observations, it's the ones who insist that "shounen is a demographic" who are the minority in discussions I've witnessed.
You sure about that? Coldlight, Vexx, totoum, Tempester, and I all seem to be disagreeing with you here.

I don't see a lot of people agreeing with you on the idea that we can basically just disregard what the term "shounen" means to the Japanese people themselves.
__________________
Triple_R is online now  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 20:09.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.