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View Poll Results: Fate/Zero - Episode 20 Rating
Perfect 10 19 24.36%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 22 28.21%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 28 35.90%
7 out of 10 : Good 6 7.69%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 2.56%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 1.28%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 78. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-05-19, 22:07   Link #41
Broskander
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So if we assume it was Berserker...then I suppose that worm that Zouken forced down Kariya's throat was the reason Kariya could finally control Berserker, right? no? Hmm.
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Old 2012-05-19, 22:15   Link #42
Kaiba
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Originally Posted by Broskander View Post
So if we assume it was Berserker...then I suppose that worm that Zouken forced down Kariya's throat was the reason Kariya could finally control Berserker, right? no? Hmm.
Kariya still has all 3 command seals, he could just use those.
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Old 2012-05-19, 22:16   Link #43
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Well, if it isn't Rider, use process of elimination.
It cannot be Saber because well, it can't.
It cannot be Lancer, Caster, or Assassin, because they are dead.
Rider does not makes sense.
So it is either Archer or Berserker.
I cannot say much about Berserker, but does anyone honestly think Gil's ego would allow him to impersonate anybody?

So that logically leaves it to be Berserker. If it truely is not Rider.
There are just logical holes with everyone. I can't buy it being Berserker since he hasn't shown any level of subtlety to this point. Also far as we know neither Kariya or Berserker know where Saber is based from. Besides if Berserker went up against Maiya there wouldn't be enough left of her to talk after. While I could see her being left alive by the Archer team so she could confirm the wrong information.

I could see Archer going along with it if it means keeping himself entertained. He has interest in Saber so having her be manipulated like that would likely be interesting enough for him to go along with it.

Doesn't make much sense for it to be Rider. Just seems not to be his style and if he said he was going to wait until night then he probably would do that. In the end we'll have to wait and see.
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Old 2012-05-19, 22:18   Link #44
Ithekro
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Well if those were the same worms that they used on Sakura...well there had to be a reason for it, right.
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Old 2012-05-19, 22:20   Link #45
Broskander
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Kariya still has all 3 command seals, he could just use those.
True that, but then that makes the scene with Berserker and the worm a little pointless, no?
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Old 2012-05-19, 22:21   Link #46
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Back to the present with more dialogue, but this time the stakes are very high. Looks like Team Kiritsugu didn't know Kirei killed off Tokiomi, then Maiya killed and Iri kidnapped by Rider, and Kariya being forced to eat the worm that feed off Sakura's virginity to gain more mana (and possibly control Berserker). Waver doesn't know Kayneth is killed and Kariya doesn't know Tokiomi is killed (by Maiya and Kirei respectively). Things are finally turning around for the Holy Grail War.
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Old 2012-05-19, 22:25   Link #47
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Gonna suck for Rider to face a pissed off Saber. Well at least he wanted to fight her, but it looks like he just wanted to son her a little bit...while Saber is going to be all bloodlusted.
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Old 2012-05-19, 22:50   Link #48
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Originally Posted by wandering-dreamer View Post
Ahhh, I've seen some of the tv/BD comparisons but none for that episode, I take back what I said earlier then.

.

Anywhere with a good list of the tv/BD comparisons? How much extra footage was there?
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Old 2012-05-19, 22:58   Link #49
Aesthetic Shampoo
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True that, but then that makes the scene with Berserker and the worm a little pointless, no?
I think if Kariya would have died if he didn't get the mana he needed from the worm. The worms inside him would rip his body apart trying to get mana for berserker.
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Old 2012-05-19, 23:08   Link #50
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Well if those were the same worms that they used on Sakura...well there had to be a reason for it, right.
Beyond Zouken being a completely evil, sadistic jackass, you mean?
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Old 2012-05-19, 23:11   Link #51
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Jackass mages do jackass stuff for reason that benefit themselves.
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Old 2012-05-19, 23:12   Link #52
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I'm always wary of participating in the discussion of episodes that leave as many questions and mysteries as this one, but I guess I'll give the novel readers the benefit of doubt here.

The placement for Kiritsugu's flashback does make more sense now. Maiya raised quite a few death flags throughout this episode, so it wasn't entirely surprising to see her go (and it really seems like we won't go a single episode without somebody dying in Season 2), but the scene was still effective in displaying how Kiritsugu's stoic endurance is just barely hanging on by a thread at this point. But before we get into that...

The Iri and Maiya talk may have gone on for a little too long, but it was a fitting final scene for the two together in the end. They were polar opposites and each represented the two sides of Kiritsugu (even the color schemes of their designs highlighted this), so at first they were only able to see that one side of him (the Magus Killer for Maiya and the childish man who dreams of saving the world for Irisviel), but through their mutual understanding they were able to get a clearer picture of him, which Maiya showed in her final words to him. Like Iri had done when she met him, Maiya realizes how weak and vulnerable Kiritsugu actually is underneath it all, which is why he suppresses he emotions so vehemently. And now that he's lost her and will probably soon lose Iri, it really does seem like a foregone conclusion that he will break down throughout the course of the war. The best he can hope for is that happens later rather than sooner, so that he might still have the strength necessary to win the war and claim his prize.

Yet the quite apparent massive scheme on the part of his foes has now made his situation more grim than ever...

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Originally Posted by Swithin View Post
I haven't read the novel to be 100% sure, but I think we can safely say it wasn't Rider at the end of the episode. First, he and Waver were to be resting until nightfall - the abduction happened while there was still daylight outside. Second, he said that he'd have to use his chariot for flight, and as we saw at the end the kidnapper was flying unassisted (which is a bit weird... some kind of long-jump? I didn't think Servants could just superman about like that.)

Anyway, the whole direction of the event (not showing his face, not hearing his voice, making him an impersonal threat,) means that I don't think the viewer is even supposed to suspect that it was actually Rider, just to be pissed off that Archer would frame the lovable goof.

Anyway, I think the title (Return of the Assassin) pulls more work than just talking about Kiritsugu's mentality - which, honestly, has evolved a bit. His concern over Irisviel, using a command seal to send Saber, even after she's effectively exited the Grail War shows that. The absolutely emotionless "assassin" aspect of his personality returned in full when he went off to kill Tokiomi (according to Maiya,) but that didn't actually last very long. He can't keep it up anymore. Kirei, on the other hand, has recently returned to actual assassinations and Assassin was the original Servant he summoned. It makes sense if he has some part in this episode, which has checked in on all the other surviving Masters... and if it comes as a faceless and sudden attack, well all the better to make the title apply to him as well.
Agreed with everything. To me this definitely seems like a massive Xanatos Gambit on the part of the newly formed Kirei and Gilgamesh team in order to turn all of their opponents against each other. Now I have no idea how they caused the Rider attack or how exactly they plan to follow up on it, but it really does seem like the only possible explanation.

I suppose one way they could have done it would be to cut off Waver's arm, attain control of his Command Spells and force Rider to do the things he did, but it's hard to believe they would be able to accomplish that so quickly and easily.

But who knows. I won't bother speculating any further (partially because I don't want to prompt any overeager novel reader into carelessly spoiling the answer) and will simply enjoy the mystery while it lasts. And by enjoy I mean suffer in agony for the next week.

I do gotta wonder just how large in scale this likely scheme is, since the preview made it seem like even Kariya and Aoi will be involved. And speaking of the former, I loved the scene with Berserker. It was great to finally see him non-CG and actually forming coherent speech. I doubt we'll get that much more characterization for him, but I really enjoyed what we got here. He's exactly the type of man I'd imagined him to be, bitter and resentful, and what he said about himself only further confirmed how fitting for one another the Master and Servant are once again. Much like Berserker, Kariya has been "cursing those who shine brilliantly" (the Magi, particularly Tokiomi, of course) for quite a while now, so it's rather ironic that Berserker would feed on one that is going through the exact same suffering as him. I expect (and hope) that eventually, though, the mad dog will see the similarities in their plight and will feel true loyalty for his poor Master.

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Originally Posted by Swithin View Post
About the word assassin fitting Kiritsugu or Kirei better, keep in mind that Kirei was also an assassin for the church (Burial Order) before the start of the show, so it's not just Emiya in that line of work.
Yeah, it was likely very much intentional for the title to be applicable to both. The Kiritsugu and Kirei parallels have been a constant since the very beginning of the show. It's part of what makes their dichotomy so good even though they haven't even met each other yet.

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Originally Posted by HandofFate View Post
Anywhere with a good list of the tv/BD comparisons? How much extra footage was there?
There is a thread made exactly for that question, but there was definitely enough new footage for at least one entirely new episode. The episodes which were most expanded on were probably 11 and 12.

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Originally Posted by EssTEss View Post
I think if Kariya would have died if he didn't get the mana he needed from the worm. The worms inside him would rip his body apart trying to get mana for berserker.
Yeah, that's what I surmised too. You can probably look at it like a "power up" for Kariya, so to speak, in order for him to be able to fight still. But of course Zouken couldn't resist the urge to offer it in the cruelest possible manner. Old bastard really hasn't taken it well that Kariya abandoned the family's bloodline magic.
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Old 2012-05-19, 23:16   Link #53
GDB
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Jackass mages do jackass stuff for reason that benefit themselves.
And in this case, he received joy from the emotional suffering Kariya felt when he learned what he just ate.

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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
Old bastard really hasn't taken it well that Kariya abandoned the family's bloodline magic.
I think he's just a sadistic, evil bastard. Kariya's just easy prey.
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Old 2012-05-19, 23:23   Link #54
Vicious108
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I think he's just a sadistic
Eh, I disagree. Well he definitely is when it comes to Kariya, but he doesn't strike me as being indiscriminately so. It just doesn't seem like a coincidence to me that he's been shown to enjoy the suffering of a "traitor" and a "failure" like Kariya, yet we haven't seen any similarly clear indications for Sakura. Unlike Kariya, she behaves nicely and actually provides excellent results, which is probably why he doesn't seem nearly as interested in having her suffer anymore than necessary. Granted, in this case, the necessary is already plenty to begin with, but still.
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Old 2012-05-19, 23:28   Link #55
GDB
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Eh, I disagree. Well he definitely is when it comes to Kariya, but he doesn't strike me as being indiscriminately so. It just doesn't seem like a coincidence to me that he's been shown to enjoy the suffering of a "traitor" and a "failure" like Kariya, yet we haven't seen any similarly clear indications for Sakura. Unlike Kariya, she behaves nicely and actually provides excellent results, which is probably why he doesn't seem nearly as interested in having her suffer anymore than necessary. Granted, in this case, the necessary is already plenty to begin with, but still.
Or because she's shut down her emotions. When she appears, she doesn't seem like much more than a robot. Hard for a sadist to get pleasure out of torturing someone when they won't respond.
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Old 2012-05-20, 01:07   Link #56
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I think after seeing this episode, unless you just hate the character, I don't think you can really deny the importance of the last two episodes for properly building Kiritsugu's character and giving his actions emotional weight. The fact that they were placed before the ending line of episodes which will be the climax of the whole series also seems wholly appropriate in retrospect because now they can successfully scrap at it for all its worth. I think Ufotable was right in their placement.

Kariya's scene was sad as usual. Zouken is obviously the world's greatest father. Making him feast on the worm that raped Sakura . I did like Berserker's scene here, drawing a nice parallel between the servant/master relation. Maybe we'll get another scene with Berserker, I'd find that nice.

Overall this episode seemed to be mostly the calm before the storm. Before Maiya's death, it was just mostly a check up on the rest of the masters and their current situation before the final conflicts start to unfold. Like everybody else, I am not quite sure if that really was Rider there at the end.

In any case, these last stretch of episodes are going to be what I was waiting for all along in Fate/Zero. In particular the Kiritsugu vs Kotomine dynamic that is presumably going to surface towards the end. The conflict will be hitting its pinnacle in intensity.
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Old 2012-05-20, 01:41   Link #57
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Overall this episode seemed to be mostly the calm before the storm. Before Maiya's death, it was just mostly a check up on the rest of the masters and their current situation before the final conflicts start to unfold.
Indeed. It was the deep breath before the plunge for the remaining participants, and probably the last true chance for a breather we'll get in this final phase of the war. Irisviel's kidnapping seems to me like it'll be the catalyst for all of the likely nonstop conflict which I expect to take place from now on and until the end, with Maiya being merely the first in a string of merciless casualties. I'm curious to see how things will unfold and just how grim a ride it will be. Knowing Urobuchi, probably quite a bit, but I do wonder if we'll get to see any hopeful or, dare I say, heroic moments here and there.

I also think it's no coincident that the only team we didn't get to check up on in this episode was the team of Kirei and Gilgamesh. When a scheme is at hand, we usually don't get to see much of the ones behind it, which is why I imagine they're behind the shenanigans in this episode and why I expect they'll be a main villainous force to be reckoned with in this final phase of the war. And with Rider low on mana, Kariya more beaten down and battered than ever and Kiritsugu's protective emotional shell cracking, who knows who will be able to stand up to them. So yeah, it should be a very intense ride, and I hope they've planned it well enough that the 5 episodes we have left will suffice to show everything in all of its glory.
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Old 2012-05-20, 02:35   Link #58
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And with Rider low on mana, Kariya more beaten down and battered than ever and Kiritsugu's protective emotional shell cracking, who knows who will be able to stand up to them.
I thought the whole point of the "you've returned to your old self" scene was to show that Kiritsugu is now one again the cold bad ass he was before he met iri.
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Old 2012-05-20, 02:49   Link #59
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I thought the whole point of the "you've returned to your old self" scene was to show that Kiritsugu is now one again the cold bad ass he was before he met iri.
Except when Maiya was about to bite the dust he let his emotionally broken little boy side resurface once more.
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Old 2012-05-20, 02:53   Link #60
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I thought the whole point of the "you've returned to your old self" scene was to show that Kiritsugu is now one again the cold bad ass he was before he met iri.
Yes... right up until Iri was kidnapped and Maiya was killed, hence the latter speaking in the past tense at the end: "This morning, you finally looked like your old self."

Knowing how dangerous this final phase of the war will probably turn out to be, he did indeed return to the cold machine-like Kiritsugu of old, which is why he was so emotionally unresponsive at the beginning of the episode, even when faced with Iri's heartfelt words of farewell. But in the end, when those closest to him were threatened and harmed, his feelings crept up once again and made him waver, hence the tears he couldn't hold back when faced with Maiya's death. In the end, no matter how hard Kiritsugu tries, no return to his "cold bad ass" self will be an assuredly permanent one and he will always be prone to letting his repressed humanity get the better of him. That's been his main source of inner turmoil since the start of the war. He knows that those feelings will only make him weaker and less effective on the battlefield, yet he can't bring himself to completely discard them. It's why Maiya kissed him in episode 3, in order to get his mind out of Illya during a time of war, why he resorted to arson before blowing up Kayneth's building in episode 6, why he considered abandoning the war and living simply for the sake of his family in episode 7, etc etc etc.

And now, even though he'd just resolved himself into fully embracing the Magus Killer side of him, Maiya's death quickly dispelled that self-imposed facade. No matter how hard he tries, Kiritsugu just can't run away from dealing with his emotions. The question is how much that is going to cost him in the upcoming final stage of the conflict.
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