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Old 2012-05-17, 17:51   Link #321
brandon279
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so you suppose that the grail would give him CS, he is healed enough to work his circuits Or his wife provides mana, a disappearing servant "happens" to see them in the right time.... dont you see that every point is unlikely

dont you see that all Kiritsugu needed to do is to add this to the binding contract "i Kayneth forfeit my claim to the holy grail forever and cut any relation to it and its war"

at least Kiristugu would have made contract with lancer.


the end point, Kiristugu kills not because he needs to, but because he accustomed to kill then feel the guilt and convince himself that he needed to kill, while in reality... there was no need at all
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Old 2012-05-17, 18:01   Link #322
Klashikari
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Kayneth magic circuit are already healed by default: Kiritsugu's Origin severs and forcefully ties back the circuits, hence why it basically "fry" the Magus and lead to nasty effect on the body if their circuits are active.
Which means that he needs to tend his physical wounds, but circuits are already in a state that cannot be recovered. That being said, it doesn't stop him from simply producing prana (but he definitely wouldn't be able to perform magecraft, ever).
That being said, he can use Sola as an additional prana supply, but Kayneth is theorically possible for that. What he needs to do is simply to lurk around keeping a low profile.

As "unlikely" a disappearing servant might be, I think we had much more "unlikely" stuff on a much more numerous basis in this franchise to the point such convenient part is at least realistic than what we got.

Also, no your suggestion doesn't work: the scroll is a -self geas-, meaning that it would only affect kiritsugu. And the geas would work only if all conditions are fulfilled, which would be impossible for Kayneth to perform in a material way (conditions must be done for its activation, and simply stating "I won't be part of the war anymore" doesn't work, since there is -no- curse applied on those who aren't the target of the geas).

And funnily enough, Kiritsugu isn't the only character who specificy that killing masters is the best method. So in a pragmatic 0 risk perspective, it is necessary.
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Old 2012-05-17, 22:11   Link #323
Touko
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Fried circuits do not produce mana. The analogy Nasu gave was "shorting out an electrical circuit".

Kiritsugu broke Kayneth.

He can still be a Master and acquire Command Spells because those activities do not actually require the person to be a magus.
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Old 2012-05-18, 04:21   Link #324
brandon279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Also, no your suggestion doesn't work: the scroll is a -self geas-, meaning that it would only affect kiritsugu. And the geas would work only if all conditions are fulfilled, which would be impossible for Kayneth to perform in a material way (conditions must be done for its activation, and simply stating "I won't be part of the war anymore" doesn't work, since there is -no- curse applied on those who aren't the target of the geas).

And funnily enough, Kiritsugu isn't the only character who specificy that killing masters is the best method. So in a pragmatic 0 risk perspective, it is necessary.
1: the condition was to kill lancer, what i mean is to change that condition to forfeit the grail, once the condition is done, there would be no way for Kayneth to return


it is funny that you insist that Kayneth is danger and Kiritsugu must kill him, while Kiritsugu did think the same about Kiri.

Kiritsugu wanted Kiri to leave the country, and didnt see any need for further action.


do we need any comparison between Kayneth and Kiri to see who is dangerous?


2: the only other master who acts like Kiritsugu and goes after other masters is ..Kiri (anther sick individual.
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Old 2012-05-18, 04:33   Link #325
chaos_alfa
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Originally Posted by brandon279 View Post
1: the condition was to kill lancer, what i mean is to change that condition to forfeit the grail, once the condition is done, there would be no way for Kayneth to return
Even if Kayneth wasn't any longer a participant of the war he could still prevent Kiritsugu from obtaining the Grail.

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Kiritsugu wanted Kiri to leave the country, and didnt see any need for further action.
It was Iri's idea to send Kirei away not Kiritsugu's. Kiritsugu would have rather seen him dead.
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Old 2012-05-18, 04:41   Link #326
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but he agreed, then he agreed that leaving is enough.
end of the point
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Old 2012-05-18, 05:38   Link #327
Haak
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Well he had to at least kill Sola, that's for sure. And I don't think Kayneth would've appreciated that...
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Old 2012-05-18, 05:41   Link #328
chaos_alfa
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but he agreed, then he agreed that leaving is enough.
end of the point
I don't think he did said that. I could be remembering it wrong.

He agreed with them going to the meeting. He doesn't know Kirei attacked Iri and Maiyu.
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Old 2012-05-18, 08:31   Link #329
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Technically, Maiya shot only kill Sola... Saber that finish Kayneth.
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Old 2012-05-18, 08:43   Link #330
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Technically, Maiya shot only kill Sola... Saber that finish Kayneth.
Kayneth would have bled out, Saber only ended his suffering.
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Old 2012-05-18, 13:57   Link #331
Kaiba
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but he agreed, then he agreed that leaving is enough.
end of the point
It's more a question of negotiation. It's extremely unlikely Tokiomi would have accepted the idea that he should kill his own student, especially since Irisviel offered nothing more at the church than "I'll kill you later."
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Old 2012-05-19, 03:31   Link #332
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brandon279 View Post
1: the condition was to kill lancer, what i mean is to change that condition to forfeit the grail, once the condition is done, there would be no way for Kayneth to return
This condition is -not- applicable: forfeiting the grail is only -words- : there is no spell or any effect applied on Kayneth, so he could potentially pretend he would no longer seek the grail. To forfeit the grail without any restriction applied on Kayneth would mean that the grail was already obtained by someone else, which is impossible to apply.
To make such condition applicable, it would require Kiritsugu to force Kayneth to sign a self geas on his own behalf, claiming he won't seek the grail or be in Kiritsugu's way.
Quote:
Kiritsugu wanted Kiri to leave the country, and didnt see any need for further action.
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but he agreed, then he agreed that leaving is enough.
end of the point
No that's Iri, and Kiritsugu had no idea that Tokiomi made his move on Iri and Saber. Iri didn't even know how Kiritsugu deals with his enemies etc (Kiritsugu mentioned Iri saw the first time his methods), so of course she wouldn't ask Kirei to be dead, and Tokiomi would not accept such condition since the request would be unbalanced in their deal.
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2: the only other master who acts like Kiritsugu and goes after other masters is ..Kiri (anther sick individual.
Except that Kayneth as well had no trouble declaring he would kill Kiritsugu, way before he is crippled (he knows the implication of the war and plays so): hell, he threatened seriously Waver back when they meet each other.
Among the Masters, only Waver doesn't aim specifically the master because he is young and naive. The rest is peculiar: Kariya has only 1 objective, Uryuu is a nutcase murderer. Meanwhile, Tokiomi is such a flashy showcase and arrogant magus for having gil that he just remains passive and keep using underhanded method.
Those who aim for the kill are much more down to earth than the rest. In fact, Kayneth would be your cutting edge and usual Master participating the war.
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Old 2012-05-19, 10:52   Link #333
hinode
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If a willingness to kill other masters makes one a sick individual, then Rin and Saber are both just as sick as Kiritsugu, as they tell Shirou he should do just that repeatedly throughout FSN.
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Old 2012-05-19, 23:14   Link #334
Grey
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A lot of unanswered questions this episode. Why was Rider moving around before nightfall? Why bother grabbing Irisviel? They never had trouble meeting normally like before. More importantly, how did Waver or Rider know where the Emiya team was based?

Someone in the episode thread: Berserker impersonating Rider. Which...doesn't make a lot of sense. But Zouken...I can see him targeting the Grail vessel and finding out where she is. Zouken snooping around makes more sense to me than Rider or Waver finding Emiya's base.

So I don't really know what's up. But I blame Zouken for half of it at least. Maybe he had some illusion magic and a golem up his sleeve too.

Also: is that Aoi's voice in the preview? Incoming death!
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Old 2012-05-20, 01:10   Link #335
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I was initially wondering how Zouken would get Berserker to do his bidding, but I suppose there's a bunch of different ways he could coerce Kariya into using a Command Spell, not the least of which being holding Sakura hostage or whatever.

And yeah not only is Aoi's voice in the preview, it seems as if she will somehow be manipulated into thinking Kariya's responsible for Tokiomi's death. Kariya really doesn't get a break, does he. Earlier on in the series I thought Kayneth would be the main victim of Urobuchi's penchant for selecting a character to be the story's whipping dog, as with Sayaka in Madoka, but it seems Kariya might be the one after all. I just hope he gets his own moment eventually, instead of always being an almost entirely powerless victim of the circumstances.
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Old 2012-05-20, 09:12   Link #336
Grey
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Another possible culprit is the Kotomine team. Gil's cheaty enough that he could pull everything off. If he thought it would be entertaining.

Two problems: I think it's too early for Kotomine to try and fight with Kiritsugu. So plot-wise I don't see him using Irisviel as a lure yet. And I don't think he or Gil would waste time with fake Rider tricks. Kotomine would face Kiritsugu personally.
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Old 2012-05-20, 10:05   Link #337
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Gil's got no problem with cheating, yes, but not when it's a cheat that involves having his haughty self impersonate someone else, and an inferior king nonetheless. I don't see him being the one.

And the Irisviel kidnapping seems more intent on getting Saber and Rider to fight each other than on luring Kiritsugu IMO. Turning his opponents on one another does sound very much like Kirei. He and Gil could simply sit on the sidelines, watch the entertaining proceedings and only get personally involved if the situation calls for it.
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Old 2012-05-20, 12:36   Link #338
Grey
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I meant Gil's cheaty because of everything that's in the Babylon treasury. For all I know he has an item that lets Kotomine fly and pretend he's Rider.

But I can't see Kotomine doing it. Even when he had Assassins he's always gone for Kiritsugu personally. At the castle and the skyscraper. If it were Kotomine he would have been waiting there when Kiritsugu came back.

I don't think he cares enough about Rider or Waver to set up this fight. And from the Caster fight, I don't think Gil's the type to set this up. He would just wait for Rider and Saber to fight each other or him.

So I'm blaming Zouken.
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Old 2012-05-20, 13:05   Link #339
Vicious108
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Originally Posted by Grey View Post
I don't think he cares enough about Rider or Waver to set up this fight.
Uh, Kirei wants to win the Holy Grail, so he will have to care enough about Rider and Waver sooner or later. If he doesn't deal with them, he won't be able to claim the Grail for himself, simple as that.

And precisely because they're the only team he hasn't shown interest in, it makes sense they would be the first one he would want to get rid of. They're simply getting in the way of him and those he actually wants to confront and question, aka Kiritsugu and Kariya.

Also, you seem to be overlooking the fact that Kirei's changed since the times of the skyscraper and the castle. He's now fully embraced his psychopathic nature, meaning he's not just out to question Kiritsugu anymore. He'll be wanting to cause as much tragedy and despair as possible along the way now, not only for himself, but also to keep Gilgamesh entertained. And kidnapping Irisviel definitely sounds like a good first step in achieving that.
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Old 2012-05-20, 13:59   Link #340
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Considering that he is basically living on borrowed time, and that the author seems to love to screw with people, best odds are that he starts to win a fight and then just drop dead from the load Berserker takes out of him. It would almost be a comedic death if this wasn't a serious show.

As for keeping Gil entertained, sure he can be entertained, but do you think his ego would allow him to make himself look like any "mongrel"? He is just too full of himself for that. Plus he wants Saber.
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