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Old 2012-05-20, 13:01   Link #41
Ithekro
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Iran getting a second form of deturrent might be enough to make both void. At which point niether is a deturrent as the locals feel too threatened to not do something about it.
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Old 2012-05-20, 13:15   Link #42
ganbaru
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Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
You don't need a nuke to not be attacked, you just need to not be worth the effort, and Iran is not worth the effort.
Not worth the effort or making it not worth all the problems than would come from it. Sadly, the second seem to be valued less while it should be as much( if not more ) tan the first.
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Old 2012-05-20, 14:36   Link #43
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mangamuscle View Post
Israel is still belligerent so why the surprise_face.jpg?
Israel has not tried to start up anything with Lebanon since the withdrawal.

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Resolution 242 do calls for a full retreat; it does not call for an immediate retreat because the USA would have vetoed such a resolutionm, heck, if resolution 242 required today a new vote the USA would veto it as-is.
I'm pretty sure full retreat is something Israel have accepted as part of the two state solution, which they've endorsed. And this is all besides the point anyway. The point is that Hezbollah were not created due to Israel not withdrawing from Palestine.
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Old 2012-05-20, 15:07   Link #44
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If they have accepted why do they continue colonisation? ... Seems paradoxal.
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Old 2012-05-20, 16:05   Link #45
mangamuscle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Israel has not tried to start up anything with Lebanon since the withdrawal.
Google disagrees with your statement. But let's cut the chase "On June 12, 2006, in response to the Lebanese group, Hezbollah, capture of two Israeli soldiers, Israel backed by few Western powers attacked Lebanon infrastructures, from bridges, airport, ports, depots, hospitals, everything it can bomb. It attacked children, women, and elders. Over 1,300 Lebanese, including infants, and children were killed on the order of the Israeli prime minister Ohud Olmert." <-- See below link for full timeline

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I'm pretty sure full retreat is something Israel have accepted as part of the two state solution, which they've endorsed.
Endorsed like a politician campaign promise, oh, btw, I have a nice condo in mars that I can sell you for cheap, I accept paypal

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And this is all besides the point anyway. The point is that Hezbollah were not created due to Israel not withdrawing from Palestine.
Ok, hezbollah was created due to the invasion of lebanon, but it exists even today thanks to the expansionist politics of Israel in Palestine, Lebanon's Shebaa Farms and Syria's Golan Heights; no one votes for a beligerant political party in times of peace.
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Old 2012-05-20, 16:19   Link #46
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Ok we get it. You're an anti-semite Hezbollah sympathizer. Can we get back on topic now?
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Old 2012-05-20, 16:22   Link #47
mangamuscle
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Originally Posted by RandySyler View Post
Ok we get it. You're an anti-semite Hezbollah sympathizer. Can we get back on topic now?
I am also a werewolf that eats children, pees on public park areas and never pulls the chain in the WC
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Old 2012-05-20, 16:23   Link #48
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Great news, you can be against Isreal policy without being anti-semite. The world isn't as black and white as this.
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Old 2012-05-20, 17:03   Link #49
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mangamuscle View Post
Google disagrees with your statement. But let's cut the chase "On June 12, 2006, in response to the Lebanese group, Hezbollah, capture of two Israeli soldiers, Israel backed by few Western powers attacked Lebanon infrastructures, from bridges, airport, ports, depots, hospitals, everything it can bomb. It attacked children, women, and elders. Over 1,300 Lebanese, including infants, and children were killed on the order of the Israeli prime minister Ohud Olmert." <-- See below link for full timeline
Regardless of how badly Israel conducted that war, the fact remains is that it was Hezbollah that started that one and not Israel. And no, the Shebaa farms are definitely not a good reason.

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Endorsed like a politician campaign promise, oh, btw, I have a nice condo in mars that I can sell you for cheap, I accept paypal
Look, I'm not here to defend Israels less than stellar perfomance in Palestine. I'm just pointing out that whilst Israel have disregarded many UN resolutions, this isn't one of them.

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Ok, hezbollah was created due to the invasion of lebanon, but it exists even today thanks to the expansionist politics of Israel in Palestine, Lebanon's Shebaa Farms and Syria's Golan Heights; no one votes for a beligerant political party in times of peace.
The issue of the Shebaa farms is not that clear cut and neither are the other two issues, especially when one involves a peace process and the other involves a ceasefire.

Why is the Palestinian cause even relevant with the issue of Iran, anyway? Does Iran even care about the Palestinian cause? It probably does, and even I think that if Israel finally established a respectable peace with the palestinians, then Iran would be at least a little pacified. But the fact of the matter is that there are way better ways of supporting the Palestinian cause than by sponsoring terrorism, and all the Iranian regime has really shown is that it cares more about hating Israel than supporting the Palestinians. And due to the fact that Hamas doesn't want negotiations and Netanyahu is perfectly content with the status quo, the Palestinian Question isn't going to be resolved anytime soon so it's pointless to factor it in anyway. And even if it was miraculously solved, there's no gauruntee that would stop Iran anyway.
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Last edited by Haak; 2012-05-20 at 17:18. Reason: broken link
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Old 2012-05-20, 18:28   Link #50
NightbatŪ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mangamuscle View Post
Iraq had no nuclear weapons yet still the US needed to invade them to " ship their oil and sell the countru by the square mile".
Exactly my point

Why doesn't the US invade Rogue states like N-Korea or Iran, but did Iraq and Afghanistan?

The answer is simple:
North Korea and Iran are very capable of defending themselves
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Old 2012-05-20, 18:39   Link #51
mangamuscle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Regardless of how badly Israel conducted that war, the fact remains is that it was Hezbollah that started that one and not Israel. And no, the Shebaa farms are definitely not a good reason.
The "they started it so we have the right can kill three thousand people in retaliation for "kidnapping" two people" is childish at best. Those two soldiers were on enemy terriory and became POW, as simple as that; israel would have done the same thing. or are you telling me that if two lebanese soldiers were aprehended in Israel's territory then Lebanon has the right to kill 3000 Israelis?

Quote:
Look, I'm not here to defend Israels less than stellar perfomance in Palestine. I'm just pointing out that whilst Israel have disregarded many UN resolutions, this isn't one of them.
Are you seriously saying that just because they say they endorse said resolution they are fullfiling it? That is like eating a big mac while saying you are not disregarding your diet because you accept eating fast food is the cause of obesity.

Quote:
The issue of the Shebaa farms is not that clear cut and neither are the other two issues, especially when one involves a peace process and the other involves a ceasefire.
Whether the Sheeba farms belong to Lebanon or Syria or Palestine is irrelevant. The works of politicians is to make even the most simple of taks unclear, difficult and slow and that is why you keep hearing that this is a delicate and complicated affair. I am more of a technocrat and see no real dificulty in returning said territories, everything else are mere excuses.

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Why is the Palestinian cause even relevant with the issue of Iran, anyway?
I am glad you ask It has been said ad nauseum that the reason for invading Iran is because they support terrorist organizations (which nowadays in the public mind invokes images of alqaeda and 9/11). While it is true that Iran does support said organizations, nowadays they limit their radius of operations to palestine/israel, an attack from Hezbollah/Hamas on US soils is as posible as an attack from the ERI or ETA. I conclusion, invading Iran as a preemptive attack is a lie no different from the WMD excuse used to invade Iraq.

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Does Iran even care about the Palestinian cause?
Why is this relevant? Actions and not words make the world go round.

Quote:
It probably does, and even I think that if Israel finally established a respectable peace with the palestinians, then Iran would be at least a little pacified. But the fact of the matter is that there are way better ways of supporting the Palestinian cause than by sponsoring terrorism,
When israel closes the gaza border as they see fit, no foreign aid can go thru so normal aid becomes futile. Before you tell me that Hezbollah does not operate in gaza let me tell you that hamas do operates there and there are another of the organizations that receive financial aid from Iran.

Quote:
and all the Iranian regime has really shown is that it cares more about hating Israel than supporting the Palestinians. And due to the fact that Hamas doesn't want negotiations and Netanyahu is perfectly content with the status quo, the Palestinian Question isn't going to be resolved anytime soon so it's pointless to factor it in anyway. And even if it was miraculously solved, there's no gauruntee that would stop Iran anyway.
Probably the only thing both the Israel and the Palestine goverment agree on is on the status quo "Oh, now be honest, Captain, warrior to warrior. You do prefer it this way, don't you, as it was meant to be? No peace in our time.". But that does not make one side virtuoso and the other side wicked.

Come again, stop Iran from what specifically?

Last edited by Daniel E.; 2012-05-21 at 03:18.
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Old 2012-05-21, 02:13   Link #52
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightbatŪ View Post
Exactly my point

Why doesn't the US invade Rogue states like N-Korea or Iran, but did Iraq and Afghanistan?

The answer is simple:
North Korea and Iran are very capable of defending themselves
It's less a matter of they can defend themselves, because let's face it, they'd be crushed in a conventional war, and more a matter of both nations possess strong conventional deterrents. Iran can shut down the Straits of Hormuz, and North Korea has a ton of artillery pointed at Seoul. Both would be stopped pretty quickly, but they'd do a hell of a lot of damage before that happens. You'll note that neither involves engaging and defeating US forces in a head to head battle. In addition, occupying Iran would be a nightmare, while North Korea risks Chinese intervention.
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Old 2012-05-21, 02:25   Link #53
Ithekro
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Consider how long both North Korea and Iran have been considered enemies of the United States and how long either has had even a hint of nuclear capability. There was a whole lot of time when they didn't have any of those abilities and yet they still were not invaded (mostly). North Korea has been a starring match over the DMZ since 1953 and Iran has been a "problem" since 1979. Niether has needed nuclear weapons before to keep the Americans from invading.

In fact the threat of American invasion seems to increase the more one threatens to get nuclear weapons (see Iraq) if one is still inside the Non-Nuclear Proliferation Treaty. Israel, India, and Pakistan were never in that treaty, and North Korea bowed out of it just before going nuclear. Iran is still in the treaty, and if they do attempt to develope nuclear arms without leaving the treaty (via a clause made for that purpose) they are going counter to the treaty. What can be done to those going against the treaty is not stated at all as far as I can tell, but the world in general doesn't like the spread of nuclear arms based on the number of countries that are in the treaty (all but the four mentioned above and techically Taiwan...because it isn't considered a country by the treaty...it says it will follow the treaty, and does not have the right to nuclear arms that China itself has the right to own).
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Old 2012-05-21, 03:43   Link #54
DonQuigleone
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I don't think Iran genuinely cares about the Palestinians, or Lebanese. It's more a case of them frantically looking for allies, and also funding opponents of their enemies.

Currently Iran's only ally is Syria, along with hezbollah (though how much help it would be in a full war is questionable...).

The main use of their support of hezbollah is to undermine their greatest rival and threat in the region: Israel. Funding Hezbollah, and Hamas, achieves a number of objectives for them. It isolates Israel from it's neighbours (the rest of the arab world will always sympathise with the palestinians/lebanese), and it forces them to expend more money on defense, all the while creating an atmosphere of paranoia and fear, which is likely to cause Israel to make all kinds of mistakes and shed western allies if they take unjust actions, for instance, they've already lost the sympathy of a lot of Europe, policy succesful.

Otherwise, Iran actually doesn't have many friends in the arab world, Arabs and Persians have traditionally been at odds with each other. There's certainly plenty of bad blood between Iraq and Iran. Iran doesn't have friends in the Arab world the way, say, Turkey does. It has to take what it can get. A nation without allies is a nation that gets pounced on and destroyed.
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Old 2012-05-21, 04:31   Link #55
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mangamuscle View Post
The "they started it so we have the right can kill three thousand people in retaliation for "kidnapping" two people" is childish at best. Those two soldiers were on enemy terriory and became POW, as simple as that; israel would have done the same thing. or are you telling me that if two lebanese soldiers were aprehended in Israel's territory then Lebanon has the right to kill 3000 Israelis?
Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said Israel had to right to kill 3000 people in retaliation. I'm simply pointing out that it was Hezbollah that was belligerent. And the two soldiers were not on enemy territory. It was a cross border attack.


Quote:
Are you seriously saying that just because they say they endorse said resolution they are fullfiling it? That is like eating a big mac while saying you are not disregarding your diet because you accept eating fast food is the cause of obesity.
No. I'm seriously saying that Israel have not disobeyed any UN resolutions to retreat just because they haven't retreated yet.

The reasons why I believe Israel is for the two state solution are based on their actions: They withdrew from Gaza, they established the Palestinian National Authority and Police, and negotiated for a retreat in the 2000 Camp David summit and the follow up Taba summit. I'm not inclined to believe in conspiracy theories so whilst I do believe that Netanyahu has tried to stall things, I don't believe that Israel doesn't believe in the two state solution and I certainly don't believe in any conspiracy theories that Israel is trying to take over everything.

Quote:
Whether the Sheeba farms belong to Lebanon or Syria or Palestine is irrelevant. The works of politicians is to make even the most simple of taks unclear, difficult and slow and that is why you keep hearing that this is a delicate and complicated affair. I am more of a technocrat and see no real dificulty in returning said territories, everything else are mere excuses.
Hezbollah can't claim to be fighting against Israel for territory that isn't theirs so yeah, I think it's kinda relevant if we plan to stick to the subject of Hezbollah instead of just switching the subject to how bad the Israelis are.

Quote:
I am glad you ask It has been said ad nauseum that the reason for invading Iran is because they support terrorist organizations (which nowadays in the public mind invokes images of alqaeda and 9/11). While it is true that Iran does support said organizations, nowadays they limit their radius of operations to palestine/israel, an attack from Hezbollah/Hamas on US soils is as posible as an attack from the ERI or ETA. I conclusion, invading Iran as a preemptive attack is a lie no different from the WMD excuse used to invade Iraq.
Fine but I'm not even making that point. I'm just saying that it's Iran that's been belligerent towards Israel first.


Quote:
Why is this relevant? Actions and not words make the world go round.

When israel closes the gaza border as they see fit, no foreign aid can go thru so normal aid becomes futile. Before you tell me that Hezbollah does not operate in gaza let me tell you that hamas do operates there and there are another of the organizations that receive financial aid from Iran.
But this does not justify Iran supporting Hezbollah, nor does it justify Iran supplying arms to Hamas.

Quote:
Probably the only thing both the Israel and the Palestine goverment agree on is on the status quo "Oh, now be honest, Captain, warrior to warrior. You do prefer it this way, don't you, as it was meant to be? No peace in our time.". But that does not make one side virtuoso and the other side wicked.

Come again, stop Iran from what specifically?
Stop Iran from hating Israel.
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Old 2012-05-21, 11:22   Link #56
mangamuscle
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I'm simply pointing out that it was Hezbollah that was belligerent. And the two soldiers were not on enemy territory. It was a cross border attack.
Both sides are belligerent, but one side is making most of the damage/deaths and is the one that has to take the initiative to end the conflict.

As for the two soldiers, your argument simply does not add up. What kind of officer would make two normal soldiers patrol a border that is a technical battlezone? You do not see them doing that on the koreas border. If said soldiers were inside a tank it would be ok, but they would not have been captured if inside a moving tank. The only logical reason is that these soldiers were commandos entering into lebanese territory that were caught in the process of entering or returning from lebanese territory.

Quote:
No. I'm seriously saying that Israel have not disobeyed any UN resolutions to retreat just because they haven't retreated yet.

The reasons why I believe Israel is for the two state solution are based on their actions: They withdrew from Gaza, they established the Palestinian National Authority and Police, and negotiated for a retreat in the 2000 Camp David summit and the follow up Taba summit. I'm not inclined to believe in conspiracy theories so whilst I do believe that Netanyahu has tried to stall things, I don't believe that Israel doesn't believe in the two state solution and I certainly don't believe in any conspiracy theories that Israel is trying to take over everything.
Up until the peace negotiated by Clinton in camp david summit I would have belived it, but after Ehud Barak left office it as become quite obvious they are backtracking on their promises, it is clear to see at the present time that with every passing day fulfilling said U.N. resolution becomes more improbable.

Quote:
Hezbollah can't claim to be fighting against Israel for territory that isn't theirs so yeah,
Why can't hezbollah make such a claim? "The enemy of my enemy is my friend", so that technically makes any of the countries having a claim for sheeba farms hezbollah's allies, remember "War makes strange bedfellows".

Quote:
But this does not justify Iran supporting Hezbollah, nor does it justify Iran supplying arms to Hamas.
Remember that when giving support you need two, one who is willing to give the aid and one that is willing to receive it, if Israel were not actively beligerant with their neighbors then there would be no one in Lebanon or Palestine that would receive Iran's money or weapons, if you want to distribute the blame then you have to include israel.

Quote:
Stop Iran from hating Israel.
Countries do not hate, they are not living beings like mammals or even physical entities, they are mental constructs in the minds of humans alone. That both countries spend time, money and human lives fighting each other is due to the poor choices their leaders have made, because for fighting you need two willing subjects, specialy when neither country has a land border with the other, so there can be no direct fighting between them.
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Old 2012-05-21, 11:41   Link #57
Ridwan
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I don't know how much people around here has been updated of the current politics in israel but, here goes : http://www.juancole.com/2012/05/new-...an-attack.html
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Old 2012-05-21, 11:55   Link #58
NightbatŪ
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
But this does not justify Iran supporting Hezbollah, nor does it justify Iran supplying arms to Hamas.
So again, whos to decide who sells arms to who?

Saddam got US weapons by the boatload, Al Queda rose to power by US arms

I think Iran is allowed to sell anyone weapons, except those that are prohibited by their law or signed treaty

...The same way the west is selling arms
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Old 2012-05-21, 11:58   Link #59
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mangamuscle View Post
Both sides are belligerent, but one side is making most of the damage/deaths and is the one that has to take the initiative to end the conflict.

As for the two soldiers, your argument simply does not add up. What kind of officer would make two normal soldiers patrol a border that is a technical battlezone? You do not see them doing that on the koreas border. If said soldiers were inside a tank it would be ok, but they would not have been captured if inside a moving tank. The only logical reason is that these soldiers were commandos entering into lebanese territory that were caught in the process of entering or returning from lebanese territory.
Yes of course, that is totally the only logical reason.

The soldiers were in armoured Humvees crossing between Zar'it and Shtula.

Before the attack, Hezbollah had sent diversionary attacks to military posts in border villages, blatantly suggesting that it was a planned attack. Hezbollah were the only belligerents here.

Quote:
Up until the peace negotiated by Clinton in camp david summit I would have belived it, but after Ehud Barak left office it as become quite obvious they are backtracking on their promises, it is clear to see at the present time that with every passing day fulfilling said U.N. resolution becomes more improbable.
There's no backtracking. Gaza hasn't been reoccupied and the PNA and the police haven't been disbanded. It's simply been stalled. To conclude that they are directly disobeying UN resolutions is a stretch based on purely subjective interpretation.

Quote:
Why can't hezbollah make such a claim? "The enemy of my enemy is my friend", so that technically makes any of the countries having a claim for sheeba farms hezbollah's allies, remember "War makes strange bedfellows".
That's a very poor excuse to call for the destruction of Israel...

Quote:
Remember that when giving support you need two, one who is willing to give the aid and one that is willing to receive it, if Israel were not actively beligerant with their neighbors then there would be no one in Lebanon or Palestine that would receive Iran's money or weapons, if you want to distribute the blame then you have to include israel.
I'm not denying Israel should get no blame whatsoever but to claim that Israel are somehow equivalently at fault is just BS. At the end of the day, Iran is one being belligerent towards Israel.

Quote:
Countries do not hate, they are not living beings like mammals or even physical entities, they are mental constructs in the minds of humans alone. That both countries spend time, money and human lives fighting each other is due to the poor choices their leaders have made, because for fighting you need two willing subjects, specialy when neither country has a land border with the other, so there can be no direct fighting between them.
I meant Iranian regime. XP


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Originally Posted by NightbatŪ View Post
So again, whos to decide who sells arms to who?

Saddam got US weapons by the boatload, Al Queda rose to power by US arms

I think Iran is allowed to sell anyone weapons, except those that are prohibited by their law or signed treaty

...The same way the west is selling arms
Well they're wrong too.
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Old 2012-05-21, 12:01   Link #60
Ithekro
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Remember that no matter what anyone does, the Iranian President will be out of office before August 2013 due to term limits.
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