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Old 2012-05-23, 05:30   Link #1261
leukrota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desrtsku View Post
^ yeah but that doesn't change the fact that he can produce it no? ^^"
If he does produce any........... no? >going along with the fad
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Old 2012-05-23, 06:13   Link #1262
desrtsku
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leukrota View Post
If he does produce any........... no? >going along with the fad
Yep he does, if he doesn't, there's nothing to be canceled at all, is there?

Back to serious mode :
we'll as Chaos said, he underwent the current curriculum of AC. The point is, no matter how how you look at it, there's no way all these experiments done to their bodies wouldn't have any effect(s) (like how there's no way you can't sleep after inhaling a certain amount of sleeping gas) ; it's just that certain persons get better results than others. Thus, even the weakest level 0 can produce the bare minimum quantity of AIM ... if they doesn't, then, there shouldn't be anything that differentiate them from normal humans ... meaning :
1- they wouldn't be labeled as "ESPer" in the first place
2- Level Upper and AIM stalker wouldn't have worked on Level 0s (since they doesn't have powers to be boosted or tracked in the first place, like Saten's Aerohand or Shiage's whatever it is)
3- They should be able to use magic
4- Tsuchimikado's auto-rebirth shouldn't exist either
Thus it's safe to say that yes, Touma can produce AIM (the can here is to emphasize the fact that' it's technically erased by IB)
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Old 2012-05-23, 07:02   Link #1263
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Originally Posted by desrtsku View Post
Yep he does, if he doesn't, there's nothing to be canceled at all, is there?

Back to serious mode :
we'll as Chaos said, he underwent the current curriculum of AC. The point is, no matter how how you look at it, there's no way all these experiments done to their bodies wouldn't have any effect(s) (like how there's no way you can't sleep after inhaling a certain amount of sleeping gas) ; it's just that certain persons get better results than others. Thus, even the weakest level 0 can produce the bare minimum quantity of AIM ... if they doesn't, then, there shouldn't be anything that differentiate them from normal humans ... meaning :
1- they wouldn't be labeled as "ESPer" in the first place
2- Level Upper and AIM stalker wouldn't have worked on Level 0s (since they doesn't have powers to be boosted or tracked in the first place, like Saten's Aerohand or Shiage's whatever it is
3- They should be able to use magic
4- Tsuchimikado's auto-rebirth shouldn't exist either
Thus it's safe to say that yes, Touma can produce AIM (the can here is to emphasize the fact that' it's technically erased by IB)
Trouble with this line of thought is with Touma being labled as a Gemstone in AC's records means that he came in to AC with a known and demonstatable power that could not be measured nor does he have any control over it so it was labled as level 0. It is unclear how much of the PCP gemstones go through Since a large part of it is just manifesting the power. Also Gemstones tend to have hard to understand powers (Deep Blood, whatever the number 7's is, and Image Breaker (note it is only clasified as this on AC's records) and all true Gemstones are said to have stronger AIM feilds the AC Espers. As a side note Deep Blood is also likely clasafied as a level 0 power as there is no way AC is going to a) admit there are vampiries b) be able to measure how effective it is or c) have any control over it
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Last edited by kagato3; 2012-05-23 at 08:03.
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Old 2012-05-23, 08:48   Link #1264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
Trouble with this line of thought is with Touma being labled as a Gemstone in AC's records means that he came in to AC with a known and demonstatable power that could not be measured nor does he have any control over it so it was labled as level 0. It is unclear how much of the PCP gemstones go through Since a large part of it is just manifesting the power. Also Gemstones tend to have hard to understand powers (Deep Blood, whatever the number 7's is, and Image Breaker (note it is only clasified as this on AC's records) and all true Gemstones are said to have stronger AIM feilds the AC Espers. As a side note Deep Blood is also likely clasafied as a level 0 power as there is no way AC is going to a) admit there are vampiries b) be able to measure how effective it is or c) have any control over it
OK, -_- There's 3 HUGE flaws in your statements :

1- The point I made is about either LV.0s produce AIM or not, and to induce if Touma is able to do so or not ... the answer is YES.
So them/Touma being a Gemstone or not is completely irrelevant (since Gemstone are stated to produce a larger-than-usual amount of AIM anyway), I hope it's clear now ...

2- Where the hell was it ever stated/confirmed (by AC) that IB is the esper power of a Gemstone?!! it's been stated since the very beginning that IB is not an ESPer/AIM based power in the first place (neither a magic one), and it's even confirmed later by Aleister and Tsugutoshi.

3- *sigh* ... And just to be clear when we're talking about "Touma's esper powers", we're obviously not talking about IB but the esper powers he should have but is negated by IB (and it's precisely for the sole purpose of proving the existence of that power that we're debating)
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Old 2012-05-23, 09:05   Link #1265
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If we're talking about official records, Touma is labelled as a plan and simple Level 0.

However among the board of directors and various high-level individuals, initially they do categorize Imagine Breaker as a Gemstone. HOWEVER, it was Kumokawa Seria in vol SS2 chap 11, that told them not to do that stating that he is possibly something more 'interesting'.

Whether or not the director took her seriously remains to be seen.

Also, Gemstones aren't particularly powerful, their value comes from how rare and 'mysterious' their abilities are, this was taken from the same volume and chapter as well.
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Old 2012-05-23, 11:01   Link #1266
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Originally Posted by desrtsku View Post
OK, -_- There's 3 HUGE flaws in your statements :

1- The point I made is about either LV.0s produce AIM or not, and to induce if Touma is able to do so or not ... the answer is YES.
So them/Touma being a Gemstone or not is completely irrelevant (since Gemstone are stated to produce a larger-than-usual amount of AIM anyway), I hope it's clear now ...

2- Where the hell was it ever stated/confirmed (by AC) that IB is the esper power of a Gemstone?!! it's been stated since the very beginning that IB is not an ESPer/AIM based power in the first place (neither a magic one), and it's even confirmed later by Aleister and Tsugutoshi.

3- *sigh* ... And just to be clear when we're talking about "Touma's esper powers", we're obviously not talking about IB but the esper powers he should have but is negated by IB (and it's precisely for the sole purpose of proving the existence of that power that we're debating)
Chaos2Frozen A level 0 can still have a power. One of Saten's classmates is a level 0 telekenitic who can badly lift a paper cup. So it is completely possible to be both a level 0 and a gemstone it's not like IB was being hidden by Touma or his family and there was even a tv show about him before he entered AC.

1. For the most part level 0's do have an AIM field however weak this is why they can't be mages

2. SS2 as Chaos2Frozen said so at least untill vol 14 high ranking AC personal see IB as a Gemstone. how easy it is to find out his status as a belived gemstone is unclear. It is imposable to belive that his records don't show that he can negate powers after living in AC for 10 years and acording to railgun anime he is an urban legend. the main reason he is still a level 0 are no one is able to get a reading of his AIM feild, it's limited to one hand and always on (ie no control over it), very likely alester says so as he is still part of his plan and like he hid his plan for the clones by makeing it look like they were for something else it's easier to hide something if it's in the millions of level 0's and not the handfulls of level 4 or 5's

3. Since IB was thought to be a gemstone it is unclear how much of the PCP he went through as a lot of it is to manifest the powers in the first place and if the hints that IB had more of an AoE when he was younger it would be hard to miss that peoples powers stopped working when he was around
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Last edited by kagato3; 2012-05-23 at 17:53.
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Old 2012-05-23, 12:15   Link #1267
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I'll probably have to cut off Touma's right hand and then do the measurements to see if an AIM field is produced.

For Science!
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Old 2012-05-23, 16:39   Link #1268
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
I'll probably have to cut off Touma's right hand and then do the measurements to see if an AIM field is produced.

For Science!
Considering how weak the nature of an AIM field is, and how overwhelmingly strong that other thing is... Good luck with that...
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Old 2012-05-23, 19:09   Link #1269
leukrota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desrtsku View Post
we'll as Chaos said, he underwent the current curriculum of AC. The point is, no matter how how you look at it, there's no way all these experiments done to their bodies wouldn't have any effect(s) (like how there's no way you can't sleep after inhaling a certain amount of sleeping gas) ; it's just that certain persons get better results than others. Thus, even the weakest level 0 can produce the bare minimum quantity of AIM ... if they doesn't, then, there shouldn't be anything that differentiate them from normal humans ... meaning :
But Touma is not any level 0. Even if he took the curriculum, how do you know the IB didn't block/interfere-with the brain modifications he could have had? Until there's something more concrete we can't say for sure that he has an esper power.

EDIT: ↓ Thanks for the reminder Teh Ping, it's easy to get carried away.

Last edited by leukrota; 2012-05-24 at 03:51.
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Old 2012-05-23, 22:01   Link #1270
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...This is the Q&A thread, not the power speculation thread...
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Old 2012-05-24, 00:25   Link #1271
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Would adding question marks at the end of every sentence make it alright then?
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Old 2012-05-24, 06:07   Link #1272
desrtsku
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^ Probably not?
To Teh_Ping. Sorry that's right, but we weren't really off topic this time ... at least not leukrota and sumeragi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
I'll probably have to cut off Touma's right hand and then do the measurements to see if an AIM field is produced.

For Science!
Exact, that's the best thing to do
Quote:
Originally Posted by leukrota View Post
But Touma is not any level 0. Even if he took the curriculum, how do you know the IB didn't block/interfere-with the brain modifications he could have had? Until there's something more concrete we can't say for sure that he has an esper power.
*sigh* Ok, I hate repeating myself, especially when you retort with a point I made myself
Quote:
Originally Posted by desrtsku View Post
Thus it's safe to say that yes, Touma can produce AIM (the "can" here is to emphasize the fact that' it's technically erased by IB)
In other word, regardless of his level he MUST HAVE an esper power but it's constantly erased by IB. Thus he's an esper but just can't use his ability.
An example if you don't get it yet, just because it's night doesn't mean that the sun died, does it? So can you say that Touma's not an esper because his power is constantly erased by IB?


Quote:
Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
-snip-
little precision about the topic :
*cough* Sorry but it's starting to be way too off-topic >.> the main point of the discussion is to prove if he's an esper or not (which is "yes he is" btw) ... or to be correct it's to answer this question

Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenHero View Post
Alright guys I have a question. I know Imagine Breaker is not an esper ability, but is Touma an actual esper?
And not discussing about IB itself or some (proven to be wrong) gossip made by the general board of directors of it being a gemstone power
... so better change to another thread if we're to continue that discussion, please ^^"
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Last edited by desrtsku; 2012-05-24 at 06:19.
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Old 2012-05-24, 13:50   Link #1273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
I'll probably have to cut off Touma's right hand and then do the measurements to see if an AIM field is produced.

For Science!
You'd have to be a scientific Othinus to do that. Or Aleister probably. Or Aiwass maybe.

Either way, I have no doubts you'll say you are better than all of them combined.
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Old 2012-05-24, 16:40   Link #1274
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You'd have to be a scientific Othinus to do that. Or Aleister probably. Or Aiwass maybe.
I thinking being a Kihara would be sufficient.

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Originally Posted by Soul Assassin View Post
Either way, I have no doubts you'll say you are better than all of them combined.
Would Aiwass be a higher being than a Goddess?
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Old 2012-05-24, 17:12   Link #1275
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I thinking being a Kihara would be sufficient.
I don't think Aleister would allow that. It never happened before.

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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Would Aiwass be a higher being than a Goddess?
That being is from a different aeonic age from you :3.
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Old 2012-05-24, 17:14   Link #1276
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That being is from a different aeonic age from you :3.
Who cares about Aeonic Ages when you're a being that transcends the ages?
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Old 2012-05-24, 17:21   Link #1277
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last i will say on this issue.
Desrtsku you are missing my point. It is unclear if Touma ever went through any part of the PCP. Gemstone = esper that did not get thier powers through the PCP or other artifical means. IB was/is thought to be a gemstone by very highlevel people in AC therefore Touma had IB coming in to AC. Espers can only have 1 power. A large part of PCP is to manifest the power in the first place. Therefore it is pointless and likely dangous to Touma for AC to have put him through the part of PCP to manifest his powers. And due to not being able to read anything on his powers Parameter List likely has him taged as don't even try and he seems to have always been on Aliesters watch list with the words "no touchie, this means you Kihara"

If Touma never went through the parts of the PCP that alter his mind and body then he is not an esper unless he realy is a gemstone and IB is sealing that power. so the correct answer to is Touma an esper is maybe but likely not. There are too many unknowns to be sure.
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Old 2012-05-26, 00:44   Link #1278
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In the Dark May Project, what were the researchers doing to the subjects?
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Old 2012-05-26, 00:50   Link #1279
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In the Dark May Project, what were the researchers doing to the subjects?
trying to recreate Acelerator via drugs and uploading his thought patterns into the subjects, may have also included cybernetics.
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Old 2012-05-26, 01:20   Link #1280
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If you upload a person's thought patterns into the subject's mind, does it make the subject act like the other person?
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