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Old 2012-05-25, 13:27   Link #9121
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Odd View Post
Actually, Medaka replied saying that she doesn't think it's possible to copy his nature.
No aijimu said she could, Medaka also seemed mildly agree to likely being able to could but never bothered to try/believed it to be phenominom.
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Old 2012-05-25, 13:30   Link #9122
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
No, if I remember correctly the explanation we received was that Plus skills usually are something from within the user that affects their own bodies while Minus skills are abilities that affect their environment and others.
That's the official explanation, sure, but I'm extrapolating here.

Notice how during the Flask Plan arc all the Abnormalities received some kind of psuedoscience justification (except, notably, the Plus Six). Then Kumagawa came along and the manga stopped bothering to justify anything.
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Old 2012-05-25, 13:58   Link #9123
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Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
Yes, I don't know about them being Styles, but I's sure that Kikaijima and Akune's sctiks are no skills. Skills are basically what makes Abnormals a notch above the rest (Not-Equals seem to be more like Skill creators than users...or something like that...they are weird and not explained >_>)

It's funny...in my eyes while Skills seem overwhelming at times, I still find that Styles are much more versatile and usable in combat (not counting the God Mode skills like stopping time and so on).

And the problem with Medaka Box's theories still stands: We can speculate all we want, but when it comes to the reveals, Nishio usually goes around and kicks us in the ass with a big Chuck Testa.
Agreed. It seems like Nishio is so off beat that he seems to genuinely enjoy crushing our expectations.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Specials are different from Abnormals because their skills don't rule their entire lives, like they do with Abnormals. Specials still have skills; even Normals can have skills, just that they are not born with them.

The difference is that Normals and Special skills are not supernatural, unlike Abnormals.

To answer your question, and expand upon the above a little, Abnormals are simply born with their abilities, and it seems that while Plus skills have some sort of reality-based, scientific justification, Minus skills do not.
That makes some sense considering how the powers are distributed. I know in Naruto, every has special abilities but the source usually comes from chakra, the internal spiritual energy that ninja use in the series. Medaka is still a power copying demi goddess although that isn't too different from protagonists such as Kenshiro from Fist of the North star or Maki from Air Master. She is still a sue.
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Old 2012-05-25, 14:26   Link #9124
Tempest35
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Hnn, another addition to the Skills thing between Normals, Specials, and Abnormals.

Skills are some that can be learned, a Talent is a 'Skill' that you have inherited due to birth and/or enviornment. Skills//Talents are things that one learns to be able to interact with their enviornemnt on a different level:
- A Normal learns normal skills normally (watching/studying/working at it). The basic skills come easy but they may/not learn more advanced ones.
- A Special usually has a basic skill or two already at Lv 2 so they don't need to stay long at the basic Lv 1 for long, which gives them more time to perfect it. They also have the thing where their special ability only really comes out when they are in the right enviornment for it.
- An Abnormal usually has just one or two skills that are so maxed out, it seems hax. This can usually cause some of their 'normal/basic' skills to lack as well. They are also defined by that skill that they have. Where a Special's skills really come out in the situation best-suited for it, an Abnormal's skill can come out regardless of the situation.

Well, that's my take on it

As for the styles...I equate them to 'systems'. I haven't seen enough to come up with an analysis like how I did for the Skills but it seems that these 'Systems' were made to combat against those with 'Skills'. In theory, a 'system' should work, regardless of what kind of skills you may/not have. You might have skills that make learning the system easier for you but a system should work regardless of who learns and uses it.

Once a 'System' user takes out/disables/'nulls' the skill that defines a 'Skill' user, the 'Skill' user would be at a supreme disadvantage.
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Old 2012-05-25, 15:36   Link #9125
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Tempest35 View Post
Hnn, another addition to the Skills thing between Normals, Specials, and Abnormals.

Skills are some that can be learned, a Talent is a 'Skill' that you have inherited due to birth and/or enviornment. Skills//Talents are things that one learns to be able to interact with their enviornemnt on a different level:
- A Normal learns normal skills normally (watching/studying/working at it). The basic skills come easy but they may/not learn more advanced ones.
- A Special usually has a basic skill or two already at Lv 2 so they don't need to stay long at the basic Lv 1 for long, which gives them more time to perfect it. They also have the thing where their special ability only really comes out when they are in the right enviornment for it.
- An Abnormal usually has just one or two skills that are so maxed out, it seems hax. This can usually cause some of their 'normal/basic' skills to lack as well. They are also defined by that skill that they have. Where a Special's skills really come out in the situation best-suited for it, an Abnormal's skill can come out regardless of the situation.

Well, that's my take on it

As for the styles...I equate them to 'systems'. I haven't seen enough to come up with an analysis like how I did for the Skills but it seems that these 'Systems' were made to combat against those with 'Skills'. In theory, a 'system' should work, regardless of what kind of skills you may/not have. You might have skills that make learning the system easier for you but a system should work regardless of who learns and uses it.

Once a 'System' user takes out/disables/'nulls' the skill that defines a 'Skill' user, the 'Skill' user would be at a supreme disadvantage.
The way you describe "systems" sound largely ineffective, skills can be anything and everything, so you can't counter those specific abilities without knowing what they are and coming up on the spot with a system to counter it, otherwise a system beating a skill is just plain luck. Much like a skill beating a system, though skills users would like have had there abilities longer.

It's like someone having a gun and you coming up with a martial arts to defeat that person, your going to need more prep than what you'll likely get more likely you'll need a bullet proof shield and those just don't hang around and it's the same with your definition of systems. Really in the grand scheme of things for it to compete with skill users they'd have to be pretty similar but with more well defined limitations as shown.

Really for Nisio to go this route he seriously didn't think his through, He completely shitted on the battle portion of this manga and is basically coming back to see turds everywhere. He should have put in well defined limitations on all of his abilities which a large amount seem to lack, without those defined limitations your stuck with unrealistic hard counter battles especially with the jokers. Basically you'd either need someone above aijimu or extremely specialised to almost ass pull level abilities to counter them.

These complex mechanics only really work with Zenkichi's group because their pretty low on the hax scale, but when you have such a large amount of overpowered characters with ill defined limitations, introducing battles that depend on specfific battle mechanics becomes either worthless or riduclous.
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Old 2012-05-25, 16:45   Link #9126
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At first that kanji power made me think, "Whaat! What the heck kind of power is that?!" But then I remembered everything else in Medaka Box.

After Ajimu Najimi I can't complain about anyone's powers. Plus I think Ajimu is glorious so...yeah. I can live with any weird powers Nisio starts giving his characters.
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Old 2012-05-25, 17:44   Link #9127
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Kanji style?

Sometimes I feel like Nisio's humor goes over my head. I'm pretty sure I had to spend extra time on those pages to get the joke.
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Old 2012-05-25, 18:28   Link #9128
Wolfenstein
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Specials are different from Abnormals because their skills don't rule their entire lives, like they do with Abnormals. Specials still have skills; even Normals can have skills, just that they are not born with them.

The difference is that Normals and Special skills are not supernatural, unlike Abnormals.
You may be using the term 'skill' far too broadly. That's not a name given to special's prowesses and such.

Specials do not posses actual skills, where have you even read that? The only ones that posses a plus are abnormals(or minuses having a minus). Normals having skills? What? They might be able aquire one like Zenkichi, but that's an exception.

Specials can have special abilities, such as Kikajima's extreme lung capacity from her training and Akune's ability to copy, but specials do not posses pluses or minuses, neither do they posses skills like abnormals. If specials do have skills, what's a skill like Nekomi's? She does not posses one, and Akune and Kikaijima are geniuses that posses special traits, but not skills.

"The Flask Plan is a project run within Hakoniwa Academy, and a driving plot force in Medaka Box. The Flask Plan seeks to create a method to turn ordinary humans into Abnormals."

There is a reason the Flask Plan targeted only Abnormals for study, and that Shiranui Hanten's skill embodies this plan. They want to turn everyone into an abnormal, ie. give them skills.
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Old 2012-05-26, 01:05   Link #9129
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I guess "Styles" are things that have been passed down throughout the Branch families, while "Skills" are something a person is born with or given to them by someone like Ajimu or Hanten.
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Old 2012-05-26, 01:39   Link #9130
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Does this mean that the Four Not Equals have styles of their own, that compensate for their lack of skills?

For example, take Shiori Munakata/ Wani. None of the physical feats she pulls are part of any skill, but certainly, they are not something any ordinary girl could pull off.

Even the bi-polar Tabarane may well have been using a style in her attempt to torture Kumugawa, back at the very beginning of the Not-Equal arc.
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Old 2012-05-26, 02:25   Link #9131
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It's possible. Yet it's possible they're just doing what Zenkichi does, which is not really a style per say. He may be a Zero, but the difference from Zero to Normal isn't that huge(in the combat-sense, as the changes were solely to his personality and the way fate affected him + others).
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Old 2012-05-26, 03:22   Link #9132
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
You may be using the term 'skill' far too broadly. That's not a name given to special's prowesses and such.

Specials do not posses actual skills, where have you even read that?
Just an observation. Kikaijima's ability to cast Shout and Zenkichi's earthquake stomp have been defined as "skills" before, even though they're not skills in the Plus/Minus sense.

Granted this was when the manga was far less complicated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by novalysis View Post
None of the physical feats she pulls are part of any skill, but certainly, they are not something any ordinary girl could pull off.
Munakata did mention that he learned how to conceal objects on his person from another. That could count as a "Style".

This is getting even MORE complicated now...
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Old 2012-05-26, 05:11   Link #9133
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I don't really get where the idea is coming from that "Styles" are operationally any different from "Skills". We've got a person who can control kanji, and another who cut any sort of thing like aircraft carriers and helicopters, after all. The actual distinction Naze made was that "Styles" are neither a Plus nor a Minus--preferring to call these "Styles" rather than "Skills" seems to me merely like a naming distinction.

I'm fairly confident that each of the suitors also still fall under the general "abnormal" category.

Let's even talk about the distinction between a "skill" and an "abnormality" for a moment. A "skill" is an ability--something you can do; whereas "Abnormal" is a status (as is "Special", "Normal", "Zero", "Not Equal" etc.). "Skills" are the things which Ajimu has a zajillion of and passes around, but "statuses" can't be passed around so easily (skills are what you have, but statuses are what you are).

Think of, for example, the fact that Naze possesses a Minus yet is still herself an Abnormal. Aka, for her part I believe, is classified as a Special (as given in the Medaka Box wiki; she's in class 12).

Let's distinguish between an Abnormal's "skills" and their "abnormality". After all, it's already been established by a huge number of characters that it's possible to possess more than one "skill".

Take Miyakonojou, who had both "Weighted Words" and "Unreasonable Taxation". First of all, it's uncertain whether these should be considered separate skills or merely different applications of a general ability on Miyakonojou's part to manipulate electricity. As for Miyakonojou's actual abnormality, though--the aspect of his personality which gives him his Abnormal status--I'd probably say it's his belief that he's meant to be king.

Similarly consider Naze. Her skill: Remodelling (now also Ice-Fire, which is a Minus skill). Her abnormality (personality trait): Stoicism (preferring/enjoying suffering).

So what the hell is a "Style"? Well, it's neither a Plus nor a Minus (skill), and apparently surpasses the concept of "skills" in general, so perhaps you could say that a Style refers to an overarching (possibly Abnormal) "concept" itself which is manifested through a user's skills/abilities. After all, saying that Kanaino's "style" is Kanji, and Namanie's "style" is Cutting doesn't seem all that different to me from saying that Kanaino's "abnormality" is Kanji and Namanie's "abnormality" is Cutting. The difference being, concepts like "Kanji" or "Cutting" are practically more like external objects or things rather than personality traits that you'd actually apply to a human (Miyakonojou's "kingship", Naze's "stoicism", Koga's "desire to be abnormal", Unzen's "justice", Medaka's "elevation/constant change", etc.).
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Old 2012-05-26, 09:08   Link #9134
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We do have precedent for external skills: they're called Minuses. Perhaps a Style combines the environmental manipulation of a Minus with the internal mindset of an Abnormal?
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Old 2012-05-26, 09:27   Link #9135
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we have more explanation later but for now I love the suitors skills.when to mistress Youka I always find really great I hope she can copy their the suitors style to create a new technique....
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Old 2012-05-26, 11:32   Link #9136
Wolfenstein
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Just an observation. Kikaijima's ability to cast Shout and Zenkichi's earthquake stomp have been defined as "skills" before, even though they're not skills in the Plus/Minus sense.

Granted this was when the manga was far less complicated.



Munakata did mention that he learned how to conceal objects on his person from another. That could count as a "Style".

This is getting even MORE complicated now...
Fair enough.

Also, since Medaka copied Munakata's Hidden Weapons, that means she can copy styles as well.
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Old 2012-05-26, 13:23   Link #9137
Kaisos Erranon
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*snip*
I think the difference is that while a Skill cannot be learned under normal circumstances (only through being passed on via another Skill, or copied via something like The End), Styles can be learned by anyone, provided that they're competent enough to do so. Styles, then, are akin to martial arts.
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Old 2012-05-26, 13:26   Link #9138
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I think the difference is that while a Skill cannot be learned under normal circumstances (only through being passed on via another Skill, or copied via something like The End), Styles can be learned by anyone, provided that they're competent enough to do so. Styles, then, are akin to martial arts.
Pretty much. Nienami's 7 sword-style was learned from someone else, her master. And could probably be learned by other people.
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Old 2012-05-26, 13:30   Link #9139
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I think the difference is that while a Skill cannot be learned under normal circumstances (only through being passed on via another Skill, or copied via something like The End), Styles can be learned by anyone, provided that they're competent enough to do so. Styles, then, are akin to martial arts.

But if styles work this way don't this mean that Zen would be able to learn them all if he want?
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Old 2012-05-26, 14:50   Link #9140
Kaisos Erranon
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But if styles work this way don't this mean that Zen would be able to learn them all if he want?
Probably, although he has plenty of limitations. Imagine if the style involved solving simple puzzles.
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