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Old 2012-05-25, 00:53   Link #101
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
I don't think I need to repeat what I said, but...
A pupil learning from a master to BEST that master, is NOT considered dishonorable, cheap, or any of that in Eastern culture.

If you don't like it, well, the issue is not with OP, it's your preference.
Actually, it's to each their own, my friend. I know of people emanating from Eastern culture that share my view on this. I perfectly understood what you said, and just stated my opinion on why I disagree with the matter. If you don't like it, well, the issue is with you.
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Old 2012-05-25, 01:21   Link #102
aohige
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Haha, nice return banter there.
And yes, there were Japanese readers that felt the same as you.

But keep in mind, Zoro's theme is a samurai. I think it's fitting.
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Old 2012-05-25, 02:53   Link #103
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I was just wondering, since Kaido may be the target of the new born alliance, if we actually know anything about that man except for his name and position. Wasn't it stated somewhen, that he fought Whitebeard on even terms, or am I confusing some facts?
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Old 2012-05-25, 03:02   Link #104
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that he fought Whitebeard on even terms
He was the one who fought Moria and killed his crew.

He was also the one who tried to ambush WB when he was on his way to Marineford.
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Old 2012-05-25, 04:46   Link #105
Darmill
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
I don't think learning from the strongest in order to become stronger than him is at all cheapning.

But it may be the difference of way East and West precieve.
師を超える (going beyond the master) is a common concept not only in Japanese culture, but I'm pretty sure in Chinese as well.
Fascinating. I know the Chinese pendant to the aforementioned idiom: “青出於藍”which means 'to surpass one's master in learning'. But it has nothing to do with defeating your own master: No matter how good you've become in the according skill, the student is obliged to respect the master and his teaching. It's really not that much different from the western culture with reference to the teacher-student relationship. Even within the Bushido it's neither accurate nor honorable to beat your own master. I know that people like Tachibana Dōsetsu and Takahashi Shigetane had been a rarity during the gloomy Sengoku period, but that's why they were and still are highly praised and belong timelessly to the best examples representing the way of a true warrior.

But you only used the term 'to best' and not 'to defeat', so I guess we're on the same boat.
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Old 2012-05-25, 05:59   Link #106
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Oh, so that's how things are, thanks for clearing that up for me.
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Old 2012-05-25, 09:37   Link #107
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I do recall being slightly disappointed about Zoro's decision to train under Mihawk before the skip, but I've long since accepted it. Besides, as BDK pointed out, it'll actually make things more interesting if this means that Mihawk will be toppled by a swordsman other than Zoro before they have a proper rematch. It actually reminds me of many moons ago when people were speculating left and right about how epic a Luffy vs. Ace/Whitebeard match would be, but then the events leading up to the war happened, and..... well, you all know the rest.



To go back on topic, I'm getting more curious about what ol' Kinemon's up to. We haven't seen him these last few chapters since he ran off to find his torso, and we STILL have zero clue as to what became of his son. Did CC turn Momonosuke into a giant crackhead like those other kids, or did he convert him into some grotesque beast like that dragon or slime.....?
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Old 2012-05-25, 09:47   Link #108
ronin myael
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
I still don't like how Oda opted to have Zoro train under Mihawk. If it were some other swordsman that trained Zoro I wouldn't have a problem at all.
zoro training under mihawke surprised me but it didn't bother me one bit. it's not that uncommon. but like you said, to each his own.

Quote:
it has nothing to do with defeating your own master: No matter how good you've become in the according skill, the student is obliged to respect the master and his teaching. It's really not that much different from the western culture with reference to the teacher-student relationship. Even within the Bushido it's neither accurate nor honorable to beat your own master. I know that people like Tachibana Dōsetsu and Takahashi Shigetane had been a rarity during the gloomy Sengoku period, but that's why they were and still are highly praised and belong timelessly to the best examples representing the way of a true warrior.
do you remember rurouni kenshin? himura kenshin had to defeat his own master, seijuro hiko, to complete his training, his master did that before him and so on. it's the only way they could truly claim mastery of the hiten mitsuguri ryu for the technique is passed on from master to pupil for generations, and only one is chosen to succeed the former.

this type of practice was not rare in eastern martial arts. some techniques were so secret that they didn't just teach them to anyone. these chosen pupils were usually required to defeat or overcome their masters as their final test. of course nowadays, they are not so secretive and selfish anymore, even wudang is now being taught to western pupils when years ago they wouldn't even teach women. no wonder most of these secret martial arts techniques have long vanished. those that did survive are the ones that changed with the times.

zoro training under mihawke doesn't cheapen anything, let alone the inevitable battle between the two of them. it just made things a little more interesting, that's all. zoro intrigued mihawke enough for the latter to allow him to live. mihawke could have killed zoro but he didn't. instead, he challenged him to become stronger, and come and face him again someday. as for mihawke's reasons for teaching zoro, i believe he did it on a whim and maybe out of curiosity. perhaps he was curious to see how powerful zoro would become at his tutelage and if zoro could best him using the skills he taught him himself. knowing how competitive he is, i bet he thought of it as an interesting challenge.
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Last edited by ronin myael; 2012-05-25 at 10:29.
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Old 2012-05-25, 10:15   Link #109
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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
I do recall being slightly disappointed about Zoro's decision to train under Mihawk before the skip, but I've long since accepted it. Besides, as BDK pointed out, it'll actually make things more interesting if this means that Mihawk will be toppled by a swordsman other than Zoro before they have a proper rematch. It actually reminds me of many moons ago when people were speculating left and right about how epic a Luffy vs. Ace/Whitebeard match would be, but then the events leading up to the war happened, and..... well, you all know the rest.



To go back on topic, I'm getting more curious about what ol' Kinemon's up to. We haven't seen him these last few chapters since he ran off to find his torso, and we STILL have zero clue as to what became of his son. Did CC turn Momonosuke into a giant crackhead like those other kids, or did he convert him into some grotesque beast like that dragon or slime.....?
Like for example Tashigi beating Mihawk and taking his sword?


I too was rather surprised that Luffy accepted Law's offer. Will be interesting how things will turn out. I wish I liked Law that much that I'd be completely hyped about that fact, but in reality I'm rather worried that Law will betray them. Also I wonder what the body switching was there for? Just for the lols?

And I wonder how Smoker and Tashigi are going to get their bodies back. I'm pretty sure THEY won't team up with Luffy and Law. And I don't seem them getting their bodies back by force either and I don't want to see Smoker being saved because Luffy pities him again

Also the mystery about Zoro's defeat hasn't been solved yet. And I wonder how they're going to beat the slime
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Old 2012-05-25, 10:23   Link #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
have you forgotten rurouni kenshin? himura kenshin had to defeat his own master, seijuro hiko, to complete his training, his master did that before him and so on. it's the only way they could truly claim mastery of the hiten mitsuguri ryu for the technique is passed on from master to pupil for generations, and only one is chosen to succeed the former.

i'm from an eastern culture myself and this type of practice was not rare in eastern martial arts. some techniques were so secret that they didn't just teach them to anyone. these chosen pupils were usually required to defeat or overcome their masters as their final test. of course this is no longer practiced, even wudang is now being taught to western pupils when years ago they wouldn't even teach women. no wonder most of these secret martial arts techniques have long vanished.
It's indeed very interesting that each faction has it's own peculiarities. As I mentioned earlier, one should respect his master and the demanded disciplines. If the master asked for a test or to put up a condition to defeat him, then that's perfectly legitimate; but if the student has long ago completed his training and years later, he comes back to challenge his master in order to prove that he's become better than him, then that would be totally inaccurate.

A condition set by the master is different from a challenge demanded by the student. If Mihawk wants Zoro to challenge him later on, then I have no problem with that. But I also assume that there will be an alternative candidate as Zoro's final opponent.
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Old 2012-05-25, 10:40   Link #111
ronin myael
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Originally Posted by Darmill View Post
It's indeed very interesting that each faction has it's own peculiarities. As I mentioned earlier, one should respect his master and the demanded disciplines. If the master asked for a test or to put up a condition to defeat him, then that's perfectly legitimate; but if the student has long ago completed his training and years later, he comes back to challenge his master in order to prove that he's become better than him, then that would be totally inaccurate.

A condition set by the master is different from a challenge demanded by the student. If Mihawk wants Zoro to challenge him later on, then I have no problem with that. But I also assume that there will be an alternative candidate as Zoro's final opponent.
well, when you put it that way then it does seem that the said student is acting like a cocky little prick. the student's intention is not to actually learn but to prove that he is better than the person who taught him. that is indeed a dishonorable way to prove yourself.

i think mihawke would welcome the challenge. he knew full well that it was zoro's intention to defeat him and claim his title. but even with that knowledge he still trained him. i think the guy is just waiting for someone who would truly be a challenge to him. i bet he's bored out of his mind most of the time. he knows he could defeat almost anyone he encounters. i wouldn't be surprised if he traveled all over the world just to look for someone else to defeat.
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Old 2012-05-25, 11:17   Link #112
Darmill
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Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
well, when you put it that way then it does seem that the said student is acting like a cocky little prick. the student's intention is not to actually learn but to prove that he is better than the person who taught him. that is indeed a dishonorable way to prove yourself.

i think mihawke would welcome the challenge. he knew full well that it was zoro's intention to defeat him and claim his title. but even with that knowledge he still trained him. i think the guy is just waiting for someone who would truly be a challenge to him. i bet he's bored out of his mind most of the time. he knows he could defeat almost anyone he encounters. i wouldn't be surprised if he traveled all over the world just to look for someone else to defeat.
Yeah it reminds me of the encounter between Mihawk and Vista where Mihawk didn't really pay much attention to one of Whitebeard's strongest commanders but kept focusing on Luffy which indicated how mighty a swordsmaster he truly is
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Old 2012-05-26, 04:53   Link #113
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I don't know about that. My recollection was that Vista was relatively scratch free in the summit war and successfully intercept/interrupted Mihawk's advance. I don't remember Mihawk just brush away Vista like nothing.

That being said, Mihawk is still the strongest swordsman in OP until Oda reveal otherwise in future chapters.

Wano might have swordsman rivals Mihawk but unless we know more, Mihawk is still the strongest swordsman in OP world.
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Old 2012-05-26, 08:44   Link #114
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Neither Mihawk nor Vista were going all out in their brief duel. And it's clear that the former held the latter in high regard by saying only a fool wouldn't know his name. For all intents and purposes, that clash was a stalemate.

Further reasoning as to why I feel Shiliew will beat Mihawk later on is because of BB's DF hunting spree. BB is going for the best DFs, and naturally that would mean that the phoenix and diamond abilities would be on his hit list. It's reasonable to infer that the remnants of the WB pirates will run into the BB pirates and have a showdown. Of course, they'll end up losing/getting killed and that's when BB will seize the opportunity to steal Marco's and Jozu's abilities. Whether he'll assimilate those into himself is something to consider/ponder about, but if not, there's always the option of giving those abilities to his crewmates. Personally, I see the diamond ability being perfect for Shiliew. During the war at Marineford, Mihawk failed to even lay a scratch on Jozu's diamond body which may be an indication that he can't cut diamond. And if that's the case, that's all the more reason for him to lose to Shiliew should they encounter one another. Seeing as how Zoro and Shiliew are going to inevitably clash much later on, Zoro defeating Shiliew would undoubtedly make the former the world's strongest swordsman (and by extension, surpass Mihawk: his mentor).
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Old 2012-05-26, 11:50   Link #115
Darmill
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Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
I don't know about that. My recollection was that Vista was relatively scratch free in the summit war and successfully intercept/interrupted Mihawk's advance. I don't remember Mihawk just brush away Vista like nothing.
I was referring to this part where Mihawks mind was still on Luffy while fighting a guy like Vista:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7RQVSbxezA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
Further reasoning as to why I feel Shiliew will beat Mihawk later on is because of BB's DF hunting spree. BB is going for the best DFs, and naturally that would mean that the phoenix and diamond abilities would be on his hit list. It's reasonable to infer that the remnants of the WB pirates will run into the BB pirates and have a showdown. Of course, they'll end up losing/getting killed and that's when BB will seize the opportunity to steal Marco's and Jozu's abilities. Whether he'll assimilate those into himself is something to consider/ponder about, but if not, there's always the option of giving those abilities to his crewmates. Personally, I see the diamond ability being perfect for Shiliew. During the war at Marineford, Mihawk failed to even lay a scratch on Jozu's diamond body which may be an indication that he can't cut diamond. And if that's the case, that's all the more reason for him to lose to Shiliew should they encounter one another. Seeing as how Zoro and Shiliew are going to inevitably clash much later on, Zoro defeating Shiliew would undoubtedly make the former the world's strongest swordsman (and by extension, surpass Mihawk: his mentor).
Although I agree with that Shiliew represents a potential final opponent for Zoro, I cannot exclude the possibility that Mihawk is going to be killed by the whole BB crew instead of getting owned in a one-on-one battle, i.e. Mihawk could end up like Edward Newgate, getting overrun by a bunch of notorious pirates with sneakiest kind of tricks up their sleeve. Not to mention how insanely powerful they will be after taking possession of those puissant DFs.
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Old 2012-05-26, 14:48   Link #116
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
I see the diamond ability being perfect for Shiliew.
I like this theory, especially this line in particular. I remember Zoro (recalling from the anime) mentioned after defeating Mr 1, he'll next cut down diamond. A nice foreshadow and seems like a neat way for Zoro to achieve his dream.
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Old 2012-05-26, 16:16   Link #117
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
Neither Mihawk nor Vista were going all out in their brief duel. And it's clear that the former held the latter in high regard by saying only a fool wouldn't know his name. For all intents and purposes, that clash was a stalemate.

Further reasoning as to why I feel Shiliew will beat Mihawk later on is because of BB's DF hunting spree. BB is going for the best DFs, and naturally that would mean that the phoenix and diamond abilities would be on his hit list. It's reasonable to infer that the remnants of the WB pirates will run into the BB pirates and have a showdown. Of course, they'll end up losing/getting killed and that's when BB will seize the opportunity to steal Marco's and Jozu's abilities. Whether he'll assimilate those into himself is something to consider/ponder about, but if not, there's always the option of giving those abilities to his crewmates. Personally, I see the diamond ability being perfect for Shiliew. During the war at Marineford, Mihawk failed to even lay a scratch on Jozu's diamond body which may be an indication that he can't cut diamond. And if that's the case, that's all the more reason for him to lose to Shiliew should they encounter one another. Seeing as how Zoro and Shiliew are going to inevitably clash much later on, Zoro defeating Shiliew would undoubtedly make the former the world's strongest swordsman (and by extension, surpass Mihawk: his mentor).
Given Haki's ability to bypass/negate DF effects, wouldn't getting a diamond body DF be a pointless gesture against a haki using swordsman? I have to assume Mihawk has Haki.
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Old 2012-05-26, 16:59   Link #118
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Given Haki's ability to bypass/negate DF effects, wouldn't getting a diamond body DF be a pointless gesture against a haki using swordsman? I have to assume Mihawk has Haki.
You have to remember that Jozu also has powerful Haki.

With his powerful Armament Haki stacked over his diamond body, he can withstand Mihawk's sword even if Mihawk did use Haki.
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Old 2012-05-26, 17:39   Link #119
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There is something everyone has been overlooking, I believe. Before the time skip there were four Yonkou, but that doesn't mean that there are four now. We know BB is one now, but there could be a fifth which we don't know about. There are many unknowns.
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Old 2012-05-26, 17:47   Link #120
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Yes, but then it's unlikely that they would still have been called "Yonkou" in the manga by people like Law and Jinbei, given that Yonkou implies that it's a fourstrong group... :/
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