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View Poll Results: Fate/Zero - Episode 21 Rating
Perfect 10 51 48.11%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 37 34.91%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 11 10.38%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 4.72%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.94%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 0.94%
Voters: 106. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-05-26, 21:07   Link #61
rpgman1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
worst then Lancer and his master?
Probably so since Kariya seems to endure the suffering anyway. If it wasn't for Kirei to heal him back then, Kariya would've just died from the battle with Tokiomi. Even Zouken like to watch his family suffer just for his own purposes.
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Old 2012-05-26, 21:22   Link #62
Shinji103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
worst then Lancer and his master?
Absolutely. Even Kiritsugu's tragedy has nothing on what happened to Kariya.

This series is downright depressing. Now I need to go watch something cornily happily. Amagami sounds just right............
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Old 2012-05-26, 21:38   Link #63
Thess
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Originally Posted by rpgman1 View Post
Now we're down to 4 masters and 4 servants. Rider's chariot is no match for Saber's Excalibur anyway.
Keep in mind that his chariot wasn't at full power (it was only in flight mode) nor did he want to injure Saber gravely, only defeat her in a misguided attempt to 'save' her.
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Old 2012-05-26, 21:43   Link #64
mAc Chaos
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He also was worried about Waver too probably since he was right there in the middle of the Excalibur blast with him.
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Old 2012-05-26, 21:46   Link #65
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The bike chase scene looks like something from Need for Speed
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Old 2012-05-26, 22:05   Link #66
Grey
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This episode felt long. In a good way. Lots of stuff happening.

I thought Kariya's breakdown was very well done. Nothing like a good inner monologue. And the visual minimalism allowed that to play out perfectly. Just an amazingly good job.
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Old 2012-05-26, 22:31   Link #67
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That CG for the chase scene would have cost so much
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Old 2012-05-26, 23:01   Link #68
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Yay, Saber and her motorbike! (That was a lot of CG.) The fight between her and Rider wasn't much, but more Rider and Waver is welcome ("We'll have to walk.").

And of course - oh dear, Kariya. That scene - Kirei's "play" - was just horribly painful and depressing to watch. Can't help but think that there was rape symbolism there. Nevertheless, I think the staff did a very good job animating the part, especially Kariya's inner monologue; it was just as intense as its counterpart in the novel.

Ah well, four more episodes...

Last edited by Allium; 2012-05-26 at 23:21.
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Old 2012-05-26, 23:17   Link #69
DragoZERO
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Invisible Air + Motorcycle + Riding Skill = AWESOME! That was so great. And Rider got schooled, bad.

Why Kariya... why!?
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Old 2012-05-27, 00:04   Link #70
Vicious108
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So it was Berserker after all. Now that I think about it, it does make a lot of sense that the guy who curses his own body and envies shining heroic spirits would be able to assume the shape of one.

The chase scene between Saber and Rider was fun to watch, in the same way the Gilgamesh and Berserker dogfight was (even if not as fun as that one), but I felt their duel was the weak link in an otherwise excellent episode. The way they settled it was a little too anti-climatic, with Rider's tactics being pretty questionable. I get that he wanted to win her over first and forest, rather than truly wanting to win the physical contest itself, but still. Hopefully, the next episode's confrontation between him and Archer (the preview makes it obvious enough) will be more satisfactory. I expect nothing but greatness once those two giants and fantastic characters collide.

The Kariya and Kirei stuff was really good though. Speaking of which, Zouken was very intelligently used by Urobuchi in this episode. Not only does he serve as a device to fuel Kariya's misery, but here he also added to Kirei's character development, by showing the priest he still isn't entirely confident that this transformation he's embraced is for the best. Kirei's expression once Zouken likened them to each other tells the story. Faced with a true monster in every sense of the word, doubts begin to creep up in his heart once again and suddenly Gilgamesh's advice to disregard the sinful nature of his sources of pleasure doesn't sound as alluring anymore. Yet, as shown by the play he arranged at the end, he still can't resist the thrill of watching tragedy unfold. Either way, even though he's finally stopped repressing his true nature, he's still very much conflicted about it and will thus continue to obsess over the one he believes holds the answer to that dilemma - Kiritsugu.

And man, this episode finally solidified Kariya's character as one of the greats in the series for me. He was a little too absent in the first season and in the second season, up until now, he'd received almost no dialogue beyond telling magi to go fuck themselves, so all of his monologues in this episode were extremely welcome and did wonders for his character, who's quite possibly become the best representative of Urobuchi's apparent favorite type of character arc - taking a virtuous individual with a noble and seemingly selfless wish and corrupting them and said wish beyond salvation and recognition (very much like a certain Madoka character).

I imagine this will make some of his prior fans start hating his guts, since it seemed as if his initial appeal for most was him being the only truly good person among the participants (alongside maybe Waver I guess), but to me this was fantastic development for the character, whose actions in what remains of the war I'm very much anticipating now. Where can he go from here and just how badly will his already degenerated mind be further scarred by this incident? I imagine he'll either desperately hang on to the wish of saving Sakura, all the while loathing himself for having killed her mother, as the only hint of goodness he's got left in himself and his life, or that he'll throw himself into the chaos of battle, wishing to be put out of his unfathomable misery as rapidly as possible. Either way, it should be a dark yet fascinating ride, as usual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post
It seems like they were really hammering in the rape imagery and metaphors, with Kariya's feelings for Aoi. He straddled her.
Yeah, that was a bold touch. I don't know if that much was described in the Light Novel, but if not Urobuchi was probably very proud of the direction of that scene. Not only that, the stills and black screens also really added to the raw emotion behind it all. Remarkable work by Ei Aoki.

Well, it could have used better character models in some of shots (this episode in general seemed to be cutting corners here and there), but it was still a mighty powerful scene. Kudos to Kariya and Aoi's seiyuu as well. The latter's surprised me in particular, since her character had been so meek and subdued up until this appearance. But she totally made the most out of this one chance to ham it up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
If wasn't for Kariya, Rin would be processed prana for Caster. Mommy and daddy just suck to properly take care of their own children. At least she has a competent legal guardian now who can raise her properly... Kirei needs father of the year award.
It really is telling that a psychopath could raise a child better than them.

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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
Why Kariya... why!?
Being friendzoned can truly drive a man crazy.
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Old 2012-05-27, 00:21   Link #71
matapat
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post

Being friendzoned can truly drive a man crazy.
I really shouldn't have laughed at this or Gil's snarky "What a terrible play!", but I did anyway

Boy when Urobuchi gets the Tragedy Train rolling there is just no stopping it. Kariya has to be one of the best tragic characters ever written in anime history. His and Aoi's seiyuus just killed it in that scene.

Amazing chase scene with Rider & Saber. And Zouken and Kirei's interaction was a nice touch. Even someone like Kirei had to give pause when Zouken gives him the "hey, we're not so different!" compliment.
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Old 2012-05-27, 00:33   Link #72
j0x
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episode 21


i like Rider now with this episode being King of Conquest means not destroying or degrading an opponent but to win/rule over them, that proves how strong and how confident he is, since we all know in a war/battle/fight its always been much easier to destroy or degrade the enemies

the race is very well done too, that awesome moment when my jaw dropped and i only realize the jaw dropping after all the action

the last part is tragic though, Karia killed his love interest due to him being blind by doubt/fear at that moment, it goes to show you how intense/extreme emotion can easily make someone have poor judgement and become a slave of their bad emotion/instinct, what i hate though is that they made that choking scene look like rape/sex it kinda ruined the moment of tragic for me a little bit since i also felt lust at that scene too
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Old 2012-05-27, 00:42   Link #73
GuidoHunter_Toki
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what i hate though is that they made that choking scene look like rape/sex it kinda ruined the moment of tragic for me a little bit since i also felt lust at that scene too
Indeed that was kind of wierd how they did that scene. It seemed almost intentional. (not that I should really be laughing at it)
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Old 2012-05-27, 00:46   Link #74
mAc Chaos
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Well, I think the anime didn't do Rider's stand there as much justice as they could have. In the novel, he basically acknowledges it's a huge risk, but his chariot is so fast that he has a real chance of taking down Saber.

So it's not like he just made a suicide blitz and gave up. Saber was in legitimate danger, and it was only at the last second that he decided to bail out and sacrifice the chariot because it would have endangered Waver to push any farther. He sacrificed the victory to save Waver's life.
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Old 2012-05-27, 01:16   Link #75
jeroz
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"you can cast before the channelling is over??? fkin OP"

well, it's either he rush Saber or be hit by that huge aoe. It's just that it took saber less time to charge up in this round.
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Old 2012-05-27, 01:17   Link #76
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Originally Posted by Shinji103 View Post
But either way, blaming him for Sakura was overdoing it. Only so much can be excused by the "heat" of the moment, and unlike Kariya, she didn't have bugs eating her body from the inside out to screw with her head.
This is even more so considering the first episode, where Aoi was the one who told Kariya off, saying Sakura's circumstances was none of his business.
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Old 2012-05-27, 01:33   Link #77
Thess
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Originally Posted by Allium View Post
And of course - oh dear, Kariya. That scene - Kirei's "play" - was just horribly painful and depressing to watch. Can't help but think that there was rape symbolism there.
A little, yes. It was kind of misplaced. The scene that should have been portrayed with rape symbolism was the Berserker/Kariya nightmare one (and the Zouken... shoving that worm into his throat, but that was intact).

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Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
This is even more so considering the first episode, where Aoi was the one who told Kariya off, saying Sakura's circumstances was none of his business.
She also completely disregarded what he said about Sakura, after their meeting on the park when he returns Rin safely to her.
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Old 2012-05-27, 01:50   Link #78
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can any1 explain what does the invisible air bike do? similar to Trans-am??
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Old 2012-05-27, 01:51   Link #79
Vicious108
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Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki View Post
Indeed that was kind of wierd how they did that scene. It seemed almost intentional. (not that I should really be laughing at it)
It most likely was, and I'm not sure what's weird about it. If it had been some random woman that Kariya was assaulting there, sure, but it wasn't. It was the woman he'd always desired. It makes sense that amidst all the rage and madness, some pent-up sexual frustration would find its way into his emotional outburst.

And honestly, I can hardly blame Kariya for it. He's lived in hellish pain for the past year and has thrown away his own life for her sake and that of her children. The thought of seeing them happy was the only thing that kept him going and made him capable of enduring his unrelenting and agonizing torment. Yet, of all things, she accused him of being selfish and incapable of loving anyone, denying everything he'd gone through for her sake. For Kariya, that was the ultimate insult and rejection. His miserable life up until then had been sustained by the thought of the light at the end of the tunnel, which he hoped would be the smile and appreciation of Aoi, but instead he was met with the utmost scorn. His reaction was most natural for a human being, no matter how unsettling the result might have been.

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Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
This is even more so considering the first episode, where Aoi was the one who told Kariya off, saying Sakura's circumstances was none of his business.
That after sort of guilt tripping him into the whole ordeal by saying he should know better than anyone why Sakura had been taken from her. She basically passive-aggressively forced him into this predicament, even if unbeknownst to her.

Now I'm not saying she deserved the fate she received here, since she was still a victim of Kirei's simple but effective scheme as well, but she's hardly a saint just because she was on the receiving end of the physical assault there, seeing as the psychological wounds she inflicted on Kariya were also extremely harmful.
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Old 2012-05-27, 02:07   Link #80
zero7090
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"Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned"

oh poor friendzoned Kariya who loved aoi and her (and another man)'s daughters like his own daughters. The guy could pretty much leave town, find another woman and lead a happy life. Yet he threw away his life, his future for Sakura.
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