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View Poll Results: Fate/Zero - Episode 21 Rating
Perfect 10 51 48.11%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 37 34.91%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 11 10.38%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 4.72%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.94%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 0.94%
Voters: 106. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-05-27, 11:31   Link #101
GDB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
Kirei and Zouken's small exchange was interesting and made me wish for a HF anime more than ever. It would be so amazing if Ufutable did it next... this route would make for a perfect "sequel" to Fate/Zero.
That's what I'm holding out hope for too. Not just because I want to see it animated (though I do), but also because it's the most natural path from Zero. Fate and UBW are better as two parts of a whole, while HF is the compliment to Zero's half.
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Old 2012-05-27, 11:58   Link #102
Goddess Madoka
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Originally Posted by Awrya View Post
I'd imagine the bike 'mutate', eg. burst open with the prana then filling and reinforcing the bike. The scene was a bit lacking for me.

I'm pretty sure she used invisible air to give the bike an additional 'push' , not to reinforce the bike with invisible air itself if that's what you mean.
Actually, Saber used Invisible Air to create an area of calm (kinda like the eye of a storm) around the bike. Basically, as mentioned earlier, it reduces air resistsnce to zero...

As for the bike augmentation, I feel as though they have done pretty much the best they could have.

I mean, Saber summons her armor the same way, except this time, she is summoning her armor on to the bike, so perhaps they (ufotable) were trying to keep some consistency? Or perhaps that is giving them too much credit, lol...

Ah well, let us wait and see what the blu-ray can accomplish...
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Old 2012-05-27, 12:16   Link #103
Haak
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Gilgamesh: "That was a terrible play, but not bad for your first playwriting attempt"

OMG, I just realised that Kotomine = Urobuchi Gen! It makes a lot of sense if you think about it (thought I can't imagine Kotomine writing a story about magical girls).

Saber's Zero Air Resistance Bike was so awesome. She should've used that on her Unit Lion.

And I suppose it's pretty redundant saying this at this point but yeah: Kotomine, Zouken and Gilgamesh - All assholes...
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Old 2012-05-27, 12:45   Link #104
Raviel
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Originally Posted by jeroz View Post
or watch Persona 4 and see Kanji being Kanji.





All comes down to Aoi's womb being too bountiful, if you know what I mean
I'm probably going to hell for saying this but...........all this could have been avoided if the Tokiomi and Aoi used protection after having Rin?

Could the entire episode be a hidden message to have safer family planning for magi families?

Anyway on a more serious I'd say if there was anyone to blame for the whole Tohsaka/Matou fiasco it would be Zouken and/or Kirei. Regardless of Aoi, Tokiomi, or Kariya's actions I think the situation would have been MUCH less tragic if the two aforementioned individuals (Zouken/Kirei) died in a pit somewhere before what happened at Fuyuki Church.

PS: It also happens to be easier to pile the blame on Zouken and Kirei because at least Aoi, Tokiomi, and Kariya's intentions were "pure" to varying degrees XD

Last edited by Raviel; 2012-05-27 at 12:58.
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Old 2012-05-27, 12:57   Link #105
KyriaL
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And the Tohsaka family is destroyed just like that, with cunning manipulation. Poor Rin has to grow up all alone, from such a young age.
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Old 2012-05-27, 13:02   Link #106
Raviel
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Originally Posted by KyriaL View Post
And the Tohsaka family is destroyed just like that, with cunning manipulation. Poor Rin has to grow up all alone, from such a young age.
Considering who her legal guardian is that might have been a better choice
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Old 2012-05-27, 13:06   Link #107
Aqua Knight
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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post

Kirei and Zouken's small exchange was interesting and made me wish for a HF anime more than ever. It would be so amazing if Ufutable did it next... this route would make for a perfect "sequel" to Fate/Zero.
Totally agreed.
But I don't think it would be successful in terms of money as HF route lacks Saber.
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Old 2012-05-27, 13:09   Link #108
Qilin
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This episode felt like a bad Shakespearean tragedy.

Well, I'd say this is quite a fitting end for Kariya, who was intent on blaming all his sufferings on his rival until the very end. He even had the gall to deny having killed Tokiomi when he had every intention of doing so to begin with, regardless of whether he actually ended up doing it or not. Good riddance.

On another note, the Kotomine Kirei we all know and love is finally back.
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Old 2012-05-27, 13:11   Link #109
Ragna92
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Gilgamesh: "That was a terrible play, but not bad for your first playwriting attempt"

OMG, I just realised that Kotomine = Urobuchi Gen! It makes a lot of sense if you think about it (thought I can't imagine Kotomine writing a story about magical girls).

Saber's Zero Air Resistance Bike was so awesome. She should've used that on her Unit Lion.

And I suppose it's pretty redundant saying this at this point but yeah: Kotomine, Zouken and Gilgamesh - All assholes...
However Gil and Kotomine are the greatest assholes. IMO they are one of the main reasons why Zero is so great. Everyone hates Zouken, but a lot of us love Gil and Kotomine.
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Old 2012-05-27, 13:19   Link #110
Aqua Knight
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If Zouken was a bishie like Gil and Kotomine that would be doubtful.
I mean look at his young photos.
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Old 2012-05-27, 13:23   Link #111
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Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
Well, I'd say this is quite a fitting end for Kariya, who was intent on blaming all his sufferings on his rival until the very end. He even had the gall to deny having killed Tokiomi when he had every intention of doing so to begin with, regardless of whether he actually ended up doing it or not. Good riddance.
Um, why are you acting as if this is the last we'll hear from and see Kariya? He's still alive, even if not for much longer now, and he's still got Berserker. His character arc and role in the story clearly aren't over just yet. Of course, it probably would be better for him and his mental health if they were, but yeah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragna92 View Post
However Gil and Kotomine are the greatest assholes. IMO they are one of the main reasons why Zero is so great. Everyone hates Zouken, but a lot of us love Gil and Kotomine.
That's because Kirei and Gilgamesh are magnificent bastards and very compelling and sophisticated antagonists. Zouken is just a boringly caricaturesque and one-dimensional villain.
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Old 2012-05-27, 13:46   Link #112
Qilin
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
Um, why are you acting as if this is the last we'll hear from and see Kariya? He's still alive, even if not for much longer now, and he's still got Berserker. His character arc and role in the story clearly aren't over just yet. Of course, it probably would be better for him and his mental health if they were, but yeah.
For all intents and purposes, he's dead. Maybe not literally, but still.

He killed his one true love with his bare hands despite his original reasons for joining the war. I don't see how he can possibly go any lower than he already has. The way I see it, his sole remaining purpose is to sustain Berserker's materialization long enough to be capable of fighting Saber.
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Old 2012-05-27, 14:05   Link #113
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For all intents and purposes, he's dead. Maybe not literally, but still.

He killed his one true love with his bare hands despite his original reasons for joining the war. I don't see how he can possibly go any lower than he already has.
I think you might be underestimating Urobuchi's perverse imagination there, but who says he has to go lower anyway? Maybe his downward spiral concluded here so he can end his quest on a high note? Not claiming that that's what most likely or whatever, but just because a character has seemingly reached rock bottom doesn't mean they become completely irrelevant to the story from that hour henceforth. It that were the case, we never would've seen Kayneth again after Kiritsugu ruined his magic circuits and Sola robbed him of Lancer. But we did, because clearly he still had a story to tell.

It should be the same with Kariya, as I'm fairly certain his character won't just be reduced to a plot device so Berserker can still be around. Every death scene in the war thus far has been meaningful and handled with care, and Kariya's end should be no different. He is one of the longest lasting participants for a reason.
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Old 2012-05-27, 14:28   Link #114
Craxuan
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Aoi is probably one of the worst kind of people out there. Extremely indecisive, uncomfortable with contact, weak-willed, and is a master of blame shifting even though she didn't usually show it on her face. Really, Tokiomi and Kariya were both extremely unfortunate to have fallen in love with her.

In fact, I believe that Aoi was modeled to be the exact opposite of Rin Tohsaka.

The saddest end for Fate/Zero's cast will undeniably belong to Kiritsugu (That's like the whole point of the story actually). But the first runner up can only be Kariya's; not even Kayneth's horrible death can top that.
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Old 2012-05-27, 14:31   Link #115
GDB
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Where do you get that she's indecisive, uncomfortable with contact, weak-willed, or a master of shifting blame? She did the last one once, after seeing her husband dead and in an incredibly emotional period, but otherwise hasn't shown any implication of any of these.
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Old 2012-05-27, 14:32   Link #116
mAc Chaos
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She was dead set against Sakura being sent off, but she just submitted to it without putting up a fight. She blamed Kariya for it indirectly by telling him it's none of his business because he ran off from the Matous and basically created that situation (earlier in the story), when Kariya was trying to get her to act on her regrets about Sakura.
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Old 2012-05-27, 14:41   Link #117
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Kariya is pretty much done. Even if he did manage to save Sakura, what would he say? "Oh by the way I killed your mother, ya sorry about that... Oh I also was going to have this epic deathmatch (even though we all know fire > insect from pokemon) with your father to try to win over your mother but someone beat me to it..."

No matter what he does from this point on he is still the guy that killed Sakura's and Rin's mother all because Aoi yelled at him. And "his" Aoi would never yell at him -_-.

I think this summarizes Kariya pretty well:

Quote:
Originally Posted by someone on another forum
Kariya's behavior reminds me a lot of internet nice guy syndrome: he's too shy to even hold a proper conversation with her half the time (reread the prologue if you don't believe me here) so he's incapable of communicating his emotions (or anything else, increasingly) to her effectively, he completely disregards her actual mindset and feelings, he arrogantly assumes HE knows what she wants far better than she ever could, he deludes himself into thinking he's doing her a favor when a deathmatch between her husband and childhood friend is one of the last things in the world she would ever want to happen, and ultimately he gets mad that she's actually behaving like an independent human instead of living up to the fictionalized version he's built up in his mind.
Though in his defense, worms and zouken. But if this was real life minus the worm/zouken thing, then Kariya basically = borderline stalker obsessed with someone.

Hell you can even interpret everything Kariya's done as trying to "win" over Aoi. I dunno if Urobuchi did that intentionally or not, but if you tried to think of it like that it is somewhat (barely imo) plausible.
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Old 2012-05-27, 14:52   Link #118
Craxuan
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Where do you get that she's indecisive, uncomfortable with contact, weak-willed, or a master of shifting blame? She did the last one once, after seeing her husband dead and in an incredibly emotional period, but otherwise hasn't shown any implication of any of these.
There are many subtle signs - her character design itself screams volumes - but you'll have to rewatch or reread the anime/novel to understand what I said. In comparison, the young Rin who did everything she can to save her classmate - absolutely reckless and stupid btw, but still - was far more impressive and worthy of respect than Aoi has ever been.
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Old 2012-05-27, 15:29   Link #119
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Whoa, whoa! Kariya, what the hell, man? You just friggin murdered her! Not cool.

Not that I'm mad for Aoi's sake, as she was barely a character in this at all. But he just robbed little Rin of both her parents. What a bastard. And now she's left with Kirei, of all people. Poor child.
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Old 2012-05-27, 16:17   Link #120
ChainLegacy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
This episode felt like a bad Shakespearean tragedy.

Well, I'd say this is quite a fitting end for Kariya, who was intent on blaming all his sufferings on his rival until the very end. He even had the gall to deny having killed Tokiomi when he had every intention of doing so to begin with, regardless of whether he actually ended up doing it or not. Good riddance.

On another note, the Kotomine Kirei we all know and love is finally back.
Funny, I had the opposite reaction. I pretty much sympathized with Kariya the whole time. Not saying what he did would be right in a real world setting. But his degradation of character based on immense suffering seems reasonable. Who wouldn't snap under the circumstances? Like he said, he went through hell to help this woman who is now here saying he never loved anyone... Makes you go : lol You'd have to have herculean character to not go insane at this point.

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Originally Posted by Swithin View Post
Of course it was. Not only is it genre-savvy, I think it's kind of daring considering how much it blows up the whole concept of ero games and where all these works come from.

Still a bit stunned with this ep. I don't think any show ever has elicited my sympathy for someone doing something as wrong as what Kariya did while they were actually doing it. Normally the "insanity" in such moments seems like a flimsy cover for straight-up moral failing, but this ep... wow. Direction, writing, and voice-acting all 10/10.
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post

And honestly, I can hardly blame Kariya for it. He's lived in hellish pain for the past year and has thrown away his own life for her sake and that of her children. The thought of seeing them happy was the only thing that kept him going and made him capable of enduring his unrelenting and agonizing torment. Yet, of all things, she accused him of being selfish and incapable of loving anyone, denying everything he'd gone through for her sake. For Kariya, that was the ultimate insult and rejection. His miserable life up until then had been sustained by the thought of the light at the end of the tunnel, which he hoped would be the smile and appreciation of Aoi, but instead he was met with the utmost scorn. His reaction was most natural for a human being, no matter how unsettling the result might have been.



That after sort of guilt tripping him into the whole ordeal by saying he should know better than anyone why Sakura had been taken from her. She basically passive-aggressively forced him into this predicament, even if unbeknownst to her.

Now I'm not saying she deserved the fate she received here, since she was still a victim of Kirei's simple but effective scheme as well, but she's hardly a saint just because she was on the receiving end of the physical assault there, seeing as the psychological wounds she inflicted on Kariya were also extremely harmful.
My thoughts exactly. They made the slide into insanity very believable and 'justified' if that's possible.

Last edited by ChainLegacy; 2012-05-27 at 16:40.
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