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View Poll Results: Fate/Zero - Episode 21 Rating
Perfect 10 51 48.11%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 37 34.91%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 11 10.38%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 4.72%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.94%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 0.94%
Voters: 106. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-05-27, 16:29   Link #121
Vicious108
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Originally Posted by whatbob1 View Post
Kariya is pretty much done. Even if he did manage to save Sakura, what would he say? "Oh by the way I killed your mother, ya sorry about that... Oh I also was going to have this epic deathmatch (even though we all know fire > insect from pokemon) with your father to try to win over your mother but someone beat me to it..."
He doesn't need to talk to her. All he has to do is hand over the Grail to Zouken and then let himself die, which shouldn't take long at all. He might at least feel some sense of redemption at the end that way. Though obviously there's no way he's actually going to win it. Not when there are guys like Kirei around.

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Originally Posted by whatbob1 View Post
No matter what he does from this point on he is still the guy that killed Sakura's and Rin's mother all because Aoi yelled at him. And "his" Aoi would never yell at him -_-.

I think this summarizes Kariya pretty well:

Though in his defense, worms and zouken. But if this was real life minus the worm/zouken thing, then Kariya basically = borderline stalker obsessed with someone.

Hell you can even interpret everything Kariya's done as trying to "win" over Aoi. I dunno if Urobuchi did that intentionally or not, but if you tried to think of it like that it is somewhat (barely imo) plausible.
There was definitely a "nice guy is friendzoned by cute girl who chooses charming asshole over him" love triangle quality to Kariya/Aoi/Tokiomi, but that so-called summary is so damn biased against Kariya that it might as well have been written by Zouken.

Claiming he did what he did simply because Aoi yelled at him is heavily distorting the situation for the sake of making him look worse as well. It was more about what she said than how she said it. And words are a powerful weapon, often capable of inflicting deeper wounds than physical harm. He may have choked the life out of Aoi, but that was only after she'd trampled on the fact that he had already sacrificed his life to save her daughter. And yes, let's not forget the worm/Zouken "thing".

That's not to say Kariya is perfectly innocent, since he was definitely blinded to an extent by his inferiority complex towards Tokiomi, which rendered him unable to even realize the paradox behind his entire quest - the fact that he was going to kill the husband and father of those he claimed to be trying to save. And I can definitely see the chance to prove he's a better man than Tokiomi and thus sway Aoi to himself being a subconscious part of his motivation to enter the war.

But Nightengale said it best; trying to single out any one of them to attribute the blame to is a pointless endeavor. It's just one of those intricately crafted trademark Urobuchi scenarios where a bunch of people with mostly good intentions end up causing each other almost nothing but grief.
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Old 2012-05-27, 16:39   Link #122
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Whoa, whoa! Kariya, what the hell, man? You just friggin murdered her! Not cool.

Not that I'm mad for Aoi's sake, as she was barely a character in this at all. But he just robbed little Rin of both her parents. What a bastard. And now she's left with Kirei, of all people. Poor child.
He only robbed Rin of her mother.
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Old 2012-05-27, 16:53   Link #123
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First half was OK, not too ridiculous, and necessary for the fans.

But the second half was excellent, I could not think of a better way that it could be filmed (for TV broadcasting).

As for Aoi, it might sound cruel, but she got what she deserved (if not sought)
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Old 2012-05-27, 17:12   Link #124
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He only robbed Rin of her mother.
Oh I know. Guess I worded it poorly, trying to say because of him now Rin has no parents instead of just one.

Anyway, aside from all that, I thought it was pretty interesting to see Zouken and Kirei have a scene together. From what people are saying here, it seems like there's more to that relationship shown in Heaven's Feel? But they definitely are similiar in how they enjoy others suffering.

Oh, and epic chase scene. Saber went totally Trinity on that bike.
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Old 2012-05-27, 17:21   Link #125
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Does anyone else think people are going to turn sadist by the end of Fate Zero because of Gil and Kirei ?
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Old 2012-05-27, 17:27   Link #126
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There was definitely a "nice guy is friendzoned by cute girl who chooses charming asshole over him" love triangle quality to Kariya/Aoi/Tokiomi, but that so-called summary is so damn biased against Kariya that it might as well have been written by Zouken.
Heh, you missed the point of the Nice Guy Syndrome analogy completely (although that definately sums up Kariya's view of the whole relationship!). Internet Nice Guy Syndrome (see here and here) is about self-proclaimed "Nice Guys" who are in fact in fact anything but when dealing with women.

Kariya's intentions towards Sakura are noble and pure throughout the entire Grail War, but his behavior towards Aoi is seriously messed up. He desperately wants to believe that he's her white knight savior sacrificing his body for her sake, when in fact if he ever bothered to actually listen to what she has to say he'd realize that he's completely trampling over her actual feelings (as opposed to what he imagines them to be); for Aoi, the concept of a deathmatch between him and Tokiomi to be a horrifying no-win situation.

As the war drags on further and further and Kariya's sanity drops further and further, he increasingly projects his wishes onto a distorted fantasy version of Aoi that he develops in his mind. Ultimately, his inability to recognize the vision of Aoi in his head with the real thing is what causes him to snap and start strangling her.

The LN version of the event, spoiler tagged for length:

Spoiler:


Of course this is all ultimately Zouken's fault in the end; as messed up as Kariya's behavior got, he can legitimately plead worm-induced insanity for everything he did. The only thing you can really fault Kariya for is actually agreeing to a deal with Fate's resident devil to essentially become the latter's puppet, subjecting himself to endless misery and torment for ultimately no benefit.
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Old 2012-05-27, 17:50   Link #127
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Well, I'd say this is quite a fitting end for Kariya, who was intent on blaming all his sufferings on his rival until the very end. He even had the gall to deny having killed Tokiomi when he had every intention of doing so to begin with, regardless of whether he actually ended up doing it or not. Good riddance.
Just like Aoi blamed Kariya, eh? A fitting end for her. Good riddance.

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Originally Posted by brandon279 View Post
In Karyia's Mind: what ungrateful bitch, i did, sacrificed and suffered everything for her and her daughter, then she accuses me of what?
Not really. In the novels, he couldn't even recognize it was Aoi he strangled until the end. Kariya's brain was damaged. Let's not forget he had a stroke that paralyzed half of his body and is currently being eaten inside by worms:

Quote:
As a matter of fact, Matō Kariya’s madness was the last fortress left to rescue him. In spite of that, he had even missed that lowliest aid at the last moment – the face of the woman rapidly turning deathly pale due to lack of oxygen was too similar to the image of the beloved woman he cherished so much in his heart – no, it was the very woman herself. At last, Kariya realized that.

“……Ah.”

At the instant both hands loosened up, a sound slipped from Aoi’s mouth.

Collapsing onto the ground with a thud, she had fainted, not budging an inch. Lacking even the sound judgment to differentiate the living from the dead, Kariya thought that just like Tokiomi, she had died.

“Ah, ah……”

He gazed at the hands that had just choked Aoi with all their might. Someone more important than anything else; someone who was the very meaning of his life – those fingers that had plucked that someone away stiffened like they belonged to someone else. But without a doubt, there was no way to deceive himself – those fingers belonged to him.

Like a peal of thunder, he realized. Those fingers squirming so shakily were just like the crest worms creeping about Sakura’s skin.

“AaaaaAAAaaaaaAAAAAAhhhhHHHHHHhhhHH…!”

He clawed at his broken face.

He tore his dried-up hair.

A scream escaped his throat. Whether it was a shriek or a wail, he could not even understand that.

Losing the last bit of sense in him, with only his animalistic instinct, Kariya desperately sought to flee; stumbling, he ran away from the chapel.

The man who had lost everything was greeted by the pitch-black darkness of the starless night.
He was too insane he noticed that was Aoi. Had he been in good condition, he wouldn't have choked her at all. In fact, he would have realized who was behind this (the novel states this later).
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Old 2012-05-27, 18:00   Link #128
Eragon
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We are so turning Sadists!! - not that I'm blaming anyone. I personally felt she was just asking to be killed when she said that
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Old 2012-05-27, 18:10   Link #129
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We are so turning Sadists!! - not that I'm blaming anyone.
Kirei and Zouken, anyone?

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Originally Posted by hinode View Post
He desperately wants to believe that he's her white knight savior sacrificing his body for her sake, when in fact if he ever bothered to actually listen to what she has to say he'd realize that he's completely trampling over her actual feelings (as opposed to what he imagines them to be); for Aoi, the concept of a deathmatch between him and Tokiomi to be a horrifying no-win situation.
Because she ever listened to what he has to say? Not talking about his feelings, but about the situation? You're making Aoi seem like a tragic heroine when the novels pretty much ironically mocked her casting herself in that egocentric role. She's as much part as the problem as Tokiomi was. Kariya was foolish to set the blame on one guy when Aoi never bothered to object. She was this perfect angel in his ridiculously idealized view. That makes her more human.

The failure of communicate (of ALL sides) bring this tragedy upon them. Similarly with Team Saber and Team Lancer.
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Old 2012-05-27, 18:40   Link #130
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This is my exact quote to a friend of mine asking about Saber on bike figure:

Well, saber on bike is long gone. Now scream in anger of your inability of getting it retail price or anger on secondary market markup. I will enjoy it either way. (Quote from Zouken)
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Old 2012-05-27, 18:41   Link #131
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Heh, you missed the point of the Nice Guy Syndrome analogy completely (although that definately sums up Kariya's view of the whole relationship!).
Or, you know, I got it just fine and simply chose not to follow the highly exaggerated pejorative connotations the author of the analogy applied to the term (though I wasn't claiming that silly description effectively encapsulates their roles and relationships either, which I assumed was obvious enough).

And you really didn't need to go out of your way to reiterate the whole thing. I pointed out the obvious paradox in Kariya's logic before you even posted on this thread:

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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
That's not to say Kariya is perfectly innocent, since he was definitely blinded to an extent by his inferiority complex towards Tokiomi, which rendered him unable to even realize the paradox behind his entire quest - the fact that he was going to kill the husband and father of those he claimed to be trying to save.
So yeah, you really didn't say anything I didn't already know. But just because I realize Kariya's own foolishness doesn't mean I agree with the aforementioned analogy and your own view. I don't, because it attempts to single out and vilify Kariya and no one else (while ironically putting Aoi on a pedestal almost as much as Kariya himself). I would elaborate on that, but Thess has already done it for me. Aoi trampled over his feelings just as much. Before this episode that is, because in the end she totally outdid him in that department. Yet as far back as episode 10 already she failed to even acknowledge any of the things he said about saving Sakura. And he actually told her all of those things directly and out loud. But she simply ignored all of his goodwill, despite not having the excuse of having had her brain serve as a worms nest for over a year. How's that for not listening to someone?

Last edited by Vicious108; 2012-05-27 at 18:55.
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Old 2012-05-27, 19:00   Link #132
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In his sweet dreams, her smile surely appears. But he doesn't have the courage to face her when he is really in front of her. It has been so for the past 8 years, and Kariya will probably never be able to face that smile forever after.

Because she makes him so nervous, he never knows what to talk about after greeting each other, and a subtle blank appears. That too happens everytime.

To break the awkward silence, Kariya looked for the one he can easily talk to.

— There. Playing in the middle of the other kids on the grass, the twin pony tails happily dancing about. Though very young, the girl already showed signs of the beautiful face she has inherited from her mother.
It's hard for her to listen to what he says when he has so much trouble saying anything to her in the first place besides small talk and her kids. Basically the only time he ever talks to her about the situation was right after he rescued Rin, at which point his mental state had already degenerated to the point where he was not so much talking with her as holding a rambling monologue:

Quote:
Slightly confused, Aoi asked the childhood sweetheart in front of her continuously. But Kariya didn’t answer any questions, and just continued on the previous topic with a gentle tone.
He also alludes to Sakura's condition in that monologue in ways that make it super-obvious to readers what he's talking about, but which lead Aoi confused because she's completely ignorant about anything related to magecraft. I think this was intentional on Kariya's part: he didn't want to horrify her by informing her what exactly Sakura had gone through at that point and hoped he could save her from it before Aoi would find out. By leaving her ignorant on this subject though, he also essentially removed any chance of making her understand what his motives and viewpoints actually were in reality before his sanity slipped irrevocibly.

You're right in that Aoi's whole doormat routine was as much responsible for Sakura being shipped off for adoption as Tokiomi's Magus tunnel vision, and that she shouldn't be passive-aggressively blaming anyone for it besides herself and her husband. I don't blame her for not seriously communicating with a guy who'd never attempted to seriously communicate with her despite knowing her since childhood, though. Friendship with a shy kid doesn't come with an obligation to make him spit out feelings that he/she refuses to spit out personally.

I still blame Zouken for Sakura's situation more than everyone else, though. He took advantage of everyone's (Tokiomi, Kariya, Aoi to a lesser extent) weaknesses brilliantly and got everything he could've wanted from the bargain, and then some.

And hey, Team Saber's still in it despite their terrible communication! I'd also argue that they're suffering as much from their respective ultramartyr syndromes and having trying to solve problems that can't be solved except with a miracle, but this isn't really the best topic for this line for conversation.
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Old 2012-05-27, 19:06   Link #133
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I think you might be underestimating Urobuchi's perverse imagination there, but who says he has to go lower anyway? Maybe his downward spiral concluded here so he can end his quest on a high note? Not claiming that that's what most likely or whatever, but just because a character has seemingly reached rock bottom doesn't mean they become completely irrelevant to the story from that hour henceforth. It that were the case, we never would've seen Kayneth again after Kiritsugu ruined his magic circuits and Sola robbed him of Lancer. But we did, because clearly he still had a story to tell.
Or maybe I'm saying this because it IS Urobuchi we're talking about here. Precedent seems to say that much at least.

I can see what you're getting at, but using Kayneth is a really bad example for what you're trying to say. What you just said could be reinterpreted as Kayneth, despite having been humiliated by having his magic circuits destroyed, being forced to endure even more humiliation by dying like the way he did. Lancer's case is similarly tragic, so I really don't see how things got better for them.

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Funny, I had the opposite reaction. I pretty much sympathized with Kariya the whole time. Not saying what he did would be right in a real world setting. But his degradation of character based on immense suffering seems reasonable. Who wouldn't snap under the circumstances? Like he said, he went through hell to help this woman who is now here saying he never loved anyone... Makes you go : lol You'd have to have herculean character to not go insane at this point.
He's sympathetic, I agree. However, I really don't like how he blames Tokiomi for all the suffering he's been through. This might be my opinion speaking, but I believe he was already this way before entering the war.

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Just like Aoi blamed Kariya, eh? A fitting end for her. Good riddance.
How are the two cases comparable?

One was doing so out of ignorance while the other was doing it to make himself feel better.
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Old 2012-05-27, 19:34   Link #134
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Or maybe I'm saying this because it IS Urobuchi we're talking about here. Precedent seems to say that much at least.

I can see what you're getting at, but using Kayneth is a really bad example for what you're trying to say. What you just said could be reinterpreted as Kayneth, despite having been humiliated by having his magic circuits destroyed, being forced to endure even more humiliation by dying like the way he did. Lancer's case is similarly tragic, so I really don't see how things got better for them.
I think you've misunderstood my position, which I probably could have made clearer, I suppose. I wasn't implying Kariya's character can only go on if he goes uphill from here. That was but one example of possible future scenarios for the character, which is why I specifically stated I wasn't claiming that it was the most likely one. The point is that there's no contradiction in "being forced to endure even more humiliation" and "still having a story to tell". You claimed that because Kariya just went through what he did, he's now become essentially a non-character, dead to the story beyond serving as a plot device to keep Berserker around still. But the way I see it Kayneth's example effectively dispels that notion, because it shows how a character can still have a role in the story despite having gone through what looked like a tragedy that might sideline them for good. In fact, I would say Kayneth was at his most interesting after his tragic fall from grace.

Not only that, but this scene just didn't seem like the conclusion to Kariya's character arc to me. I can't be sure of what he'll do from now on, but it's obvious he's going to have an on-screen death scene and thus far Urobuchi has made sure to give each character some measure of satisfactory closure during their final moments (satisfactory to the viewer, of course, not necessarily to the characters). And Kariya, who's lasted this long, should be no different. It's unthinkable to me that they'll simply gloss over his character and final moments now, when he's at his most interesting and has finally received extremely significant character development.

But in the end this is all speculation, so we might as well wait and see how things go for him in the following month. I still have hopes for the character though (not for his recovery, but for him to remain a compelling one), so I'm not writing him off just yet.
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Old 2012-05-27, 19:48   Link #135
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How are the two cases comparable?

One was doing so out of ignorance while the other was doing it to make himself feel better.
Ignorance? Tokiomi was ice cold to the touch (description of the novels). That isn't the condition of a man who was killed before someone's eyes as Aoi claimed. Plus, she was making herself feel better about giving Sakura away by pinning the fault on him. Don't you remember she also blamed him for taking her away?
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Old 2012-05-27, 19:52   Link #136
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I think you've misunderstood my position, which I probably could have made clearer, I suppose. I wasn't implying Kariya's character can only go on if he goes uphill from here. That was but one example of possible future scenarios for the character, which is why I specifically stated I wasn't claiming that it was the most likely one. The point is that there's no contradiction in "being forced to endure even more humiliation" and "still having a story to tell". You claimed that because Kariya just went through what he did, he's now become essentially a non-character, dead to the story beyond serving as a plot device to keep Berserker around still. But the way I see it Kayneth's example effectively dispels that notion, because it shows how a character can still have a role in the story despite having gone through what looked like a tragedy that might sideline them for good. In fact, I would say Kayneth was at his most interesting after his tragic fall from grace.
The way I see it, all that's left for him is to either die in a blaze of glory or fade into oblivion. Seeing as he had already reached rock bottom with the events of this episode, I find it inconceivable for him to go anywhere but up. However, looking at precedent, I don't expect him to go up in the least.

Of course, maybe I'm underestimating Urobuchi's skill in torturing and humiliating his characters all the way 'til death. So perhaps it won't be certain until he actually bites the dust.


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Ignorance? Tokiomi was ice cold to the touch (description of the novels). That isn't the condition of a man who was killed before someone's eyes as Aoi claimed. Plus, she was making herself feel better about giving Sakura away by pinning the fault on him. Don't you remember she also blamed him for taking her away?
Emotional shock has a way of impairing basic decision making faculties.

Of course, Sakura's case was different, and perhaps Aoi was just deplorable as Kariya in that respect.
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Old 2012-05-27, 20:14   Link #137
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Emotional shock has a way of impairing basic decision making faculties.
Kariya had emotional shock and part of his brain not fully functioning properly due to his condition. Also let's not forget Tokiomi wanted to kill him too.

He could have attacked him from the back, but he was waiting to have a duel even if he was clearly in the losing side.

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Of course, Sakura's case was different, and perhaps Aoi was just deplorable as Kariya in that respect.
Well, yes. That's the point stressed and grieving people tend to blame others to feel a little better about themselves to cope.

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It's hard for her to listen to what he says when he has so much trouble saying anything to her in the first place besides small talk and her kids. Basically the only time he ever talks to her about the situation was right after he rescued Rin, at which point his mental state had already degenerated to the point where he was not so much talking with her as holding a rambling monologue:
It's hard for Aoi to even speak up to anyone of subjects that mess with her (including her husband apparently). Since she is pretty doormat-ish, isn't she? Both of them are pretty alike in this sense.

Furthermore he didn't answer these questions (“What? What’s going on? How come you are here?”) because she was giving horrified wails and panicked. The text remarks she's a coward twice (to follow him, for her reaction, irrc). She couldn't take in anything and wrapped her mind about that. Furthermore, the misunderstanding came that Kariya was assuming her priority was Sakura, thinking she was a wonderful mother (she isn't), so she must have been disturbed with Sakura's future rather than "the two men of my life are going to kill each others" (probably how Gen makes fun of 'tragic heroine' routine).

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I think this was intentional on Kariya's part: he didn't want to horrify her by informing her what exactly Sakura had gone through at that point and hoped he could save her from it before Aoi would find out. By leaving her ignorant on this subject though, he also essentially removed any chance of making her understand what his motives and viewpoints actually were in reality before his sanity slipped irrevocibly.
When it's intentional, it's mentioned (Kariya silencing stuff with Sakura, for instance). It wasn't mentioned. Have you forgotten he is Zouken's puppet? He can't speak of anything against his plans directly... It's like people have some deep selective memory.

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I don't blame her for not seriously communicating with a guy who'd never attempted to seriously communicate with her despite knowing her since childhood, though. Friendship with a shy kid doesn't come with an obligation to make him spit out feelings that he/she refuses to spit out personally.
She heard about her daughter being in potential danger and she could only thought about her husband and Kariya. The text does too by calling her lack of courage and cowardice. Kariya's not faultless, but I cut him some slack since he's half crazy and wormed, but she's essentially too weak to even speak out. Also he's not really the girls' parents.

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I still blame Zouken for Sakura's situation more than everyone else, though. He took advantage of everyone's (Tokiomi, Kariya, Aoi to a lesser extent) weaknesses brilliantly and got everything he could've wanted from the bargain, and then some.
Zouken IS the responsible for Sakura's pain, but Aoi and Tokiomi were the ones who gave her away (so breaking up their family was their own fault). They did have good intentions, but they tried to pretend they did the best even when the obvious (Kariya) slapped them in the face with a glimpse of what Matou magecraft is like.

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Originally Posted by hinode View Post
And hey, Team Saber's still in it despite their terrible communication! I'd also argue that they're suffering as much from their respective ultramartyr syndromes and having trying to solve problems that can't be solved except with a miracle, but this isn't really the best topic for this line for conversation.
Not all of it, Maiya is down and Iri is kidnapped.
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Old 2012-05-27, 20:30   Link #138
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Kariya had emotional shock and part of his brain not fully functioning properly due to his condition. Also let's not forget Tokiomi wanted to kill him too.

He could have attacked him from the back, but he was waiting to have a duel even if he was clearly in the losing side.
I was saying that I believed that he was already intent on pinning his failures on Tokiomi even before war, so the trauma he underwent afterwards is irrelevant . Also, I don't think Tokiomi saw killing him as anything personal, so the two cases aren't really comparable.

Of course, that's me as a non-novel reader talking. Does it say otherwise?
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Old 2012-05-27, 20:36   Link #139
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I was saying that I believed that he was already intent on pinning his failures on Tokiomi even before war, so the trauma he underwent afterwards is irrelevant . Also, I don't think Tokiomi saw killing him as anything personal, so the two cases aren't really comparable.
Kariya started to blame Tokiomi after he saw Sakura's endless worm rape condition, since uh Aoi told him he was the one who gave her away? So of course he was pissed with him (and Zouken).

Before that, he was all right with the guy. His hatred only increased after a year of torture (where he was unable to be hostile against Zouken because the worms get 'excited' if they smell this) which includes his stroke that paralyzed half of his body and losing the sight of one eye. It wasn't really out of blue and without justification, he was descending into madness. The anime did gloss over his pain.

In episode 5, for instance, they cut the part that his insides exploded when Berserker went mad at Saber. He almost fainted in the sewers and was unable to move for hours. Fun!

Spoiler for plus also kind of gloss over the aftermath with have him only puke blood and worms:


Tokiomi's hatred for Kariya was personal in his indifferent way, because of the magus pride he cast away.
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Last edited by Thess; 2012-05-27 at 20:48.
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Old 2012-05-27, 20:52   Link #140
Qilin
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Kariya started to blame Tokiomi after he saw Sakura's endless worm rape condition, since uh Aoi told him he was the one who gave her away? So of course he was pissed with him (and Zouken).
Then perhaps I interpreted Kariya's character incorrectly? I still hate his guts though.

I kinda saw it as him rationalizing his hatred for Tokiomi by using Sakura as an excuse. The most we can really blame Tokiomi for is his ignorance, or perhaps his callousness. But Kariya, using Sakura's suffering as a clutch, uses this vent all his frustration on Tokiomi for having what he could not have. There's a worm right there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Tokiomi's hatred for Kariya was personal in his indifferent way, because of the magus pride he cast away.
Ah. That makes sense. This is another case of moral dissonance between the values held by mages and that of ordinary folk.
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Last edited by Qilin; 2012-05-27 at 22:51.
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