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Old 2012-05-30, 08:43   Link #1
Khu
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Gender Roles

If there's another thread out there on the broader topic of this, I apologise for the extra thread, but I couldn't find any in here so... :L

Anyway, what got me thinking about this was that I was at school and one of my female friends tickled me. I retaliated in kind, but the guys were like "Rape!" So I stopped. At that point it wasn't really in the front of my mind since it was all playful stuff, nothing serious.

Then there's these few videos that got me thinking that I'd like to share.







I do agree with these videos. They may seem biased on their own, however they are backed by examples. Also with the deluge of feminist literature and media out there, some maleinst (lol new word) media won't hurt.

THIS IS WHAT I AM ARGUING:

Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Double standards everywhere, yes, but just because they exist doesn't make them right.

It is not okay to hit anyone! It doesn't matter what they have or don't have between their legs! Violence against other people is inexcusable unless there are extreme mitigating circumstances--i.e. self-defense or the defense of other innocent people.

It's not okay to bully anyone, regardless of sex, gender, sexual orientation, style of dress, whether they wear glasses, whether they play videogames or are gigantic otaku.

It's absolutely not okay for anyone to touch anyone else in a sexual manner without their consent. That's sexual harassment at the very least. Sex doesn't matter one whit.

It's absolutely not okay for anyone to abuse their partner, regardless of whether it's a woman abusing a man, a man abusing a woman, or a gay man or lesbian abusing a partner.

These things are never okay. They just aren't. But things get twisted and warped by ridiculous double standards of gender roles and masculine/feminine identity.
So this got me thinking. Double standards have turned around. Female empowerment, while fine and dandy, has reached the point where women are expecting more of men, and less of themselves. I won't go on to massively reiterate what has been said in the videos, since I'll just start ranting, but the bottom line is: If women want equal rights, and equal jobs, and equal everything, they should also be subject to equal punishment, equal scrutiny, and equal harshness for equal crimes.

Examples of what I mean, since I'm getting misunderstood
(lol, curse my young inarticulate phrasing!)
Although I do admit I am generalising, the social constructs right now, as I see it, are permitting women to hold disdain against men who cannot hold their own in this world and also be able to support a woman. When a woman cannot do this, as I see the social pressure, it is accepted and even welcomed, as a woman who 'requires' support. This reinforces the old values that women are demure, and they require male help. And they do not! They do not ALWAYS REQUIRE support.

However, if she is in considerable strife, then YES, she is. Equally, if a man is in considerable strife, then YES, he is. WITHOUT the social stigmatism of being a bum, and not being able to support himself.

BOTH GENDERS HAVE EQUAL RIGHTS TO RECEIVE HELP IN THIS CASE, and not be prosecuted or socially pressured for "not being a man" or "being a woman."

It IS NOT okay to hit a girl. Yet when a girl hits a boy, does that make it suddenly okay? If a girl bullies a boy, insults his masculinity, is that still okay? If a girl makes a boy uncomfortable by touching his genitalia, can he, in faith of being a man, still be able to tell her to stop? If a woman engages in domestic violence against a man, can he cry, can he say he is a victim, without being called out as a liar, and being accused of domestic violence himself?

These outdated ideas that are at odds with feminism, of women not being able to hold their own, of men having to be able to support women, is what I'm arguing against - for both genders!

Now, with that in mind: thoughts?

Last edited by Khu; 2012-05-31 at 05:40. Reason: Trying to make my phrasing clearer...lol.
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Old 2012-05-30, 08:51   Link #2
synaesthetic
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Whenever women have insisted on absolute equality with men, they have invariably wound up with the dirty end of the stick. What they are and what they can do makes them superior to men, and their proper tactic is to demand special privileges, all the traffic will bear. they should never settle merely for equality. For women, "equality" is a disaster. --Robert Heinlein

Women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition. --Timothy Leary

Mammalian males essentially evolved as meatshields to protect the females, because biologically speaking a female is much more important than a male.

Ordinary feminism doesn't go far enough, and militant, man-hating feminism is just plain stupid.
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Old 2012-05-30, 08:55   Link #3
mangamuscle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khu View Post
So this got me thinking. Double standards have turned around. Female empowerment, while fine and dandy, has reached the point of critical mass.
Forgive me if I have yet to see the videos (ATM I use a shitty browser and I have to copy/paste the video into youtube). But I diagree about female empowerment reaching critical mass. It does not matter whether you live in a backwards hole like afganistan or in one of the countries in the top 10 educational rating, males have a higher income than females for the same work. That is when said women have access to said positions (quick, think 10 female CEOs, ok, google it, you will be hardpressed to find them). Money equals power and without it there will be no equality.

Oh, and I am male, but I have this weird fetish for something called "truth" (ok, it is not my only fetish, but that is a story for another thread :-p )
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Old 2012-05-30, 09:02   Link #4
Khu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mangamuscle View Post
Forgive me if I have yet to see the videos (ATM I use a shitty browser and I have to copy/paste the video into youtube). But I diagree about female empowerment reaching critical mass. It does not matter whether you live in a backwards hole like afganistan or in one of the countries in the top 10 educational rating, males have a higher income than females for the same work. That is when said women have access to said positions (quick, think 10 female CEOs, ok, google it, you will be hardpressed to find them). Money equals power and without it there will be no equality.

Oh, and I am male, but I have this weird fetish for something called "truth" (ok, it is not my only fetish, but that is an story for another thread :-p )
Fair enough point, on that I agree with, but this is only when they have access to the same jobs. But do you see women wanting to become deep coal miners? Frontline soldiers? Anything to do with danger of any sort? Although yes, I am sure there are women that would want to do these things (I know of several from my career as an Army Cadet, and quite a few who are fierce enough to be able to serve), there still remains the fact that the vast majority are still sticking to the old chivalric views, while demanding that they get paid more.

For example, if you were a poor convenience store owner, and you took out a woman who was corporately employed, would you still foot the bill? And if you didn't, would her perception of you change simply because you didn't? (Or couldn't?) Yes, you may explain your situation - but would that change how a feminist would see it?

Of course, as in any case, there are exceptions - but I am making the point to a vast majority.
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Old 2012-05-30, 09:03   Link #5
fanty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khu View Post
Double standards have turned around.
You've gotta be kidding me.

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Old 2012-05-30, 09:16   Link #6
mangamuscle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khu View Post
For example, if you were a poor convenience store owner, and you took out a woman who was corporately employed, would you still foot the bill?
Yeah, why not, obviously I would take her to a place that I can afford. If she wants something fancier I would not mind she paying the bill.

Quote:
And if you didn't, would her perception of you change simply because you didn't? (Or couldn't?) Yes, you may explain your situation - but would that change how a feminist would see it?
How am I supposed to know? I never said I understood how women think, maybe some woman in the forum might answer this for us. Also, I have no idea if the answer would change if she is or not a feminist.

Quote:
Of course, as in any case, there are exceptions - but I am making the point to a vast majority.
I can only answer for myselft, I do not represent the vast majority.
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Old 2012-05-30, 09:26   Link #7
Khu
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Originally Posted by fanty View Post
You've gotta be kidding me.

Okay, so what I got from that was that the speaker felt that men still objectified women, and that boys were still being taught that a woman was a sexual object that cannot stand for herself. And that this should change. This is true.

That fails, however to address my argument, (and my wide sweeping statements and bad phrasing are biting me in the ass I see, lol)

My argument is, in the context of your video:
It is fine that some aspects of the man box be changed. Yes, women are not sexual objects. Yes, women can stand for themselves. But by this same standard, women should NOT HARASS men who do not fit the man box that HAS CHANGED. If you change one aspect of the man box, and you teach boys to treat women as equals, then the opposite is also true! You should teach girls to treat boys as equals. You should NOT teach girls that boys are automatically rapists, you should NOT teach girls that all men are simply out for sex, you should NOT teach them to think that men and women cannot be friends. That is simply reinforcing the SAME DOUBLE STANDARD. That is what I mean by how this double standard has turned around - men are still expected to hold OUTDATED values of being strong, and being courageous, and never crying, while expected to hold NEW values of emotions, and crying, and being able to express themselves freely.

How can these two ever be reconciled? The two phrases are exactly the opposite of each other!

Another rephrasing:
It IS NOT okay to hit a girl. Yet when a girl hits a boy, does that make it suddenly okay? If a girl bullies a boy, insults his masculinity, is that still okay? If a girl makes a boy uncomfortable by touching his genitalia, can he, in faith of being a man, still be able to tell her to stop? If a woman engages in domestic violence against a man, can he cry, can he say he is a victim, without being called out as a liar, and being accused of domestic violence himself?

That is what I am trying to say.
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Old 2012-05-30, 09:27   Link #8
Xagzan
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You can have as many men doing tampax commercials, as many stories of henpecked husbands as you want. It doesn't change the reality. Mangamuscle already addressed part of it, here's another. Congress. Compare the number of men to women. 362:76 in the House, 83:17 in the Senate.

Here's another, also politically related. Viagra is covered by insurance. No one makes a fuss. People try to get birth control covered for women, there's a huge national debate. Those might not seem like clear black and white examples, where you can say "this is definitely sexism, and it's evil and should be fixed," but that's what makes it so insidious. Because it's not always obvious, and people don't always see it for what it is. That's why it continues to exist.
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Old 2012-05-30, 09:34   Link #9
Khu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mangamuscle View Post
Yeah, why not, obviously I would take her to a place that I can afford. If she wants something fancier I would not mind she paying the bill.

How am I supposed to know? I never said I understood how women think, maybe some woman in the forum might answer this for us. Also, I have no idea if the answer would change if she is or not a feminist.

I can only answer for myselft, I do not represent the vast majority.
Although I do admit I am generalising, the social constructs right now, as I see it, are permitting women to hold disdain against men who cannot hold their own in this world and also be able to support a woman. When a woman cannot do this, as I see the social pressure, it is accepted and even welcomed, as a woman who 'requires' support. This reinforces the old values that women are demure, and they require male help. And they do not!

Both genders have equal rights to receive help, and not be prosecuted for "not being a man" or "being a woman."

These outdated ideas that are at odds with feminism, of women not being able to hold their own, of men having to be able to support women, is what I'm arguing against - for both genders!

Quote:
Viagra is covered by insurance. People try to get birth control covered for women, there's a huge national debate.
Viagra should not be covered by insurance. Both promote sexual irresponsibility.



Okay, yeah, I'm going to change my opening post, evidently I'm being misconstrued here XD
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Old 2012-05-30, 09:54   Link #10
mangamuscle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khu View Post
Although I do admit I am generalising, the social constructs right now, as I see it, are permitting women to hold disdain against men who cannot hold their own in this world and also be able to support a woman. When a woman cannot do this, as I see the social pressure, it is accepted and even welcomed, as a woman who 'requires' support. This reinforces the old values that women are demure, and they require male help. And they do not!
I do not get what do you expect me to think about this. If we look at couple (whether they are married or not) it is logical that both of them must give something for the relation to work and ATM men are in a position where most of the time they can fetch (if not 100% at least 50% of) the household income. It is very important for woman to be wary of men that cannot pull their own weight as I know too many marriages when the woman gets a 100% of the income and the man does nothing-at-all (since house work is in their minds women-only work).

Quote:
Both genders have equal rights to receive help, and not be prosecuted for "not being a man" or "being a woman."
This statement is way to generic, I do not know what you are talking about.

Quote:
These outdated ideas that are at odds with feminism, of women not being able to hold their own, of men having to be able to support women, is what I'm arguing against - for both genders!
I repeat myself, if we lived in a world with equal oportunities it would make sense to ask women to "hold their own". I do not know your country but at least where I live in most couples (as in, unless you are rich) both of them work (since otherwise you cannot make ends by the end of the month).
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Old 2012-05-30, 10:04   Link #11
fanty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khu View Post
These outdated ideas that are at odds with feminism, of women not being able to hold their own, of men having to be able to support women, is what I'm arguing against - for both genders!
If that's what you think, then I definitely agree with you. A woman looking down on a man for not being "manly enough" or whatever is absolutely unacceptable. The problem is, men do not want to fight against the stereotypes of manliness. Feminists have fought long and hard (and still are fighting) to make it possible for women to lead "un-womanly" lives, but men don't really seem to want to have that fight at all. What you see more often than not, is guys complaining about how nobody allows them to be "properly manly" any more, or whatever (which is nonsense, since masculinity is still held superior to femininity).
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Old 2012-05-30, 10:35   Link #12
Paranoid Android
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Rather than wanting equality, both men and women want what their gender appears to lack in. Women seeking equality being the more notable one as they were obviously the more restricted gender. I notice some women feel entitled to everything that they are treated in lesser manner by society when they are already greater than men in other things.

My biggest problem with gender equality is that society has lower expectations for women in that regard and with a mix of perverted corruption.
*Regarding Ontario, Canada. A province I believe to be one of the relatively least prejudice states in the world.
Spoiler for education:


http://www.payequity.gov.on.ca/en/ab...e/wagegaps.php
It makes plenty of sense to me that stats show female wage average is less than male when post-secondary graduate ratios already show the same imbalance. So these graphs to me show absolutely nothing about the true problem. (except that education general pays off xD)
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Old 2012-05-30, 11:29   Link #13
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Mammalian males essentially evolved as meatshields to protect the females, because biologically speaking a female is much more important than a male.

Ordinary feminism doesn't go far enough, and militant, man-hating feminism is just plain stupid.
What do you mean? You girls have a layer of fat to protect your heart from both blunt and sharp trauma, which is a vital organ!

Actually, that is kind of a sad truth. The human race will wipe itself out if the men just go "okay whatever you bitches, fend for yourselves, I am out for a beer and some videogames".

Men and women are already equal in most parts of the world - they have something called the equal freedom of decision. But is everyone using it?
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Old 2012-05-30, 11:49   Link #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Men and women are already equal in most parts of the world - they have something called the equal freedom of decision. But is everyone using it?
Exactly, there's someone I know who complains about her work life. Well she didn't graduate high school. She dropped out by her own choice. There may be minor inequality but the major factor wasn't the gender but their personal decisions.

I have a friend who was some hardboiled sharp-tongued girl with a big ego and was one of those people who piss you off because you hate their attitude but they're just miles ahead of you in independence, career and life experience. And then she got her first boyfriend. Turned completely introverted and shy and poured water on career (she insists is voluntary, I insist she got her brain reformatted and installed a faulty OS)
Spoiler for My face when I saw her boyfriend the first time:
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Old 2012-05-30, 12:38   Link #15
fanty
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Men and women are already equal in most parts of the world - they have something called the equal freedom of decision. But is everyone using it?
Freedom to decide what exactly? To jump off a bridge when they are being forced into an arranged marriage or when they are being withdrawn from school because their parents don't think that a girl needs an education? MOST countries are a horrible place to live in as a woman.

Things are better in the west, thanks to a hundred years of feminism, but a hundred years of feminism is not enough to remedy thousands of years of oppression. Misogyny is deeply ingrained in society, and it will be many decades until it gets eliminated. And people who come in and declare that there's nothing to fight for any more and that everybody is equal now definitely aren't helping to make things better.
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Old 2012-05-30, 12:46   Link #16
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Even the most developed countries still has men being paid around 10% more for the same work. And in many cases where men and women work the same amount of time the woman still ends up doing the most unpaid work.
And women still gets asked "what were you wearing?" when in court after being raped.
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Old 2012-05-30, 12:55   Link #17
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There has been a case made that suggests that the two income family can be a problem when it comes to raising children. Mainly that the parents rarely have time to be with their children and left the schools raise them. The parents present little moral or any other values on their children. When the teachers have issues they are dismissed out of hand in most cases because the parents won't believe that "their child" could do (or doesn't do) such things.

Now who would stay home to watch and or raise the children? That would be a matter of taste I suppose. My mother did it the first year or so, and my father did it for several years after that. So it can be done by either parent. But the requirement of lifestyle has gotten to the point where a family cannot survive without two (or more) incomes.
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Old 2012-05-30, 12:57   Link #18
fanty
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Originally Posted by Usami_Haru View Post
And women still gets asked "what were you wearing?" when in court after being raped.
Which makes me bash my head against the wall, because there's plenty of rape occurring in the Middle East. Do you know how middle eastern women dress?



Rape isn't a problem with how women dress, it's a problem with how men think of women.

Which reminds me of a story I once heard on the radio, coming from a South African woman, where she told about how when she was a teen, five teenage boys from her village ganged up on her and raped her, because she refused to date any of them, and so they decided to "teach her how to respect men". It's utterly disgusting stuff, and it's happening all around the world.
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Old 2012-05-30, 13:02   Link #19
TurkeyPotPie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khu View Post
Anyway, what got me thinking about this was that I was at school and one of my female friends tickled me. I retaliated in kind, but the guys were like "Rape!" So I stopped. At that point it wasn't really in the front of my mind since it was all playful stuff, nothing serious.
I wouldn't fuck around with that stuff, not in the Anglosphere. The potential to have your life destroyed by a false rape accusation is too high.

I would suggest reading The Manipulated Man. An oldie, but a real eye opener. Also, don't get married or have children. Again, the potential to have your life ruined is too high in the west.
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Old 2012-05-30, 13:08   Link #20
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Originally Posted by TurkeyPotPie View Post
I wouldn't fuck around with that stuff, not in the Anglosphere. The potential to have your life destroyed by a false rape accusation is too high.
You do realize that when a woman accuses a man of raping her then she's basically opening the floodgates to being called a slut and having every tiniest bit of her behaviour examined in search of what it might have been that made her bring it on herself? If I ever got raped, I'd be very afraid to be vocal about it because of the scrutiny and stigma that would bring.
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