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View Poll Results: Fate/Zero - Episode 21 Rating
Perfect 10 51 48.11%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 37 34.91%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 11 10.38%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 4.72%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.94%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 0.94%
Voters: 106. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-05-30, 16:05   Link #241
ChronoReverse
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It was said that the land in Japan wasn't good for them. Leylines and such are important apparently.
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Old 2012-05-30, 16:16   Link #242
Touko
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Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
It was said that the land in Japan wasn't good for them. Leylines and such are important apparently.
That was the excuse Zouken tells himself in denial.

The fact was that the lineage is just falling apart for some reason.
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Old 2012-05-30, 16:18   Link #243
Ithekro
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Probably because he's still alive.
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Old 2012-05-30, 17:07   Link #244
Altima of the Gates
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Touko View Post
Spoiler:
Spoiler for answer:


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
It's also not a well-known trait if Tokiomi didn't seem to be aware of it until Sakura.

It seems there's quite the lack of empathy going here; a literal lack of the ability to be in the character's shoes is almost prevalent. It's a lot easier to criticize when you have more knowledge and didn't grow up in the circumstances. Doubly so because this is a fictional piece where the way people act only has to be internally consistent and not necessarily consistent with reality. This is a world where someone like Shirou and Kirei exist for instance.
That pretty much then says that Zouken of all people knows more about the wife than the husband does. That is a bit sad, as I haven't seen anything saying the Zenjou (Aoi's birth family) and the Makiri were that close. Except for the relationship between Kariya and Aoi during their childhood.

But you'd think such things would have been told to Tokiomi as well by his in-laws. Like, "Hey, son-in-law! You really lucked out, this girl here you snagged? Well our little family here has a thing that makes the kids born from our women the best they can be! Whadja think of that? Oh, and pass the pot roast."

The problem is not that I do not have empathy, but bottom line, he rolled the dice for no real reason and knew the repercussions he would face. With the way things are done, he is not the one who will have to live with the aftermath, the child will. I don't see that as a lack of empathy, but the honest truth.
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Old 2012-05-30, 18:00   Link #245
Qilin
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Well we can't even really say that given the enormity of the damage his wish could cause. Trying to rewrite human nature could even be seen as more selfish, and not weighing the terrible price to be paid in the long run by essentially lobotomizing humanity.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions", as much as I hate that phrase, sometimes rings true.
The consequences of Kiritsugu's wish are unrelated to him being selfless or not. The idea is that his intentions are (almost) completely selfless. I mean, this is a man who literally threw away all the happiness he could find for the sake of the world. His selflessness goes to such extremes that his sense of self could be said to be nearly non-existent. He is a person who would gladly sacrifice all he has for faces he's never seen, and he doesn't discriminate between the people he saves. Whatever harm his wish brings, just remember that he does it not for his own sake, but for the world's.

Oh, yes. Say what you like about his methods, but Kiritsugu is the closest thing to "selfless" that this show can offer, making him an appropriate example for what I was trying to say indeed.
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Last edited by Qilin; 2012-05-30 at 18:21.
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Old 2012-05-30, 18:40   Link #246
ChainLegacy
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The consequences of Kiritsugu's wish are unrelated to him being selfless or not. The idea is that his intentions are (almost) completely selfless. I mean, this is a man who literally threw away all the happiness he could find for the sake of the world. His selflessness goes to such extremes that his sense of self could be said to be nearly non-existent. He is a person who would gladly sacrifice all he has for faces he's never seen, and he doesn't discriminate between the people he saves. Whatever harm his wish brings, just remember that he does it not for his own sake, but for the world's.

Oh, yes. Say what you like about his methods, but Kiritsugu is the closest thing to "selfless" that this show can offer, making him an appropriate example for what I was trying to say indeed.
From all your posts you seem to greatly admire or at the very least promote this style of selflessness as the penultimate form of human morality. I fundamentally disagree. I think a man can still be great even if some of his motives are impure. After all, I love my family and expect that to be reciprocated... there's undeniable, intrinsic selfishness involved, but I don't see how that's an inherently bad thing.

Of course, in Kariya's case, his selfish motivations led to disaster. But had he saved Sakura and done so based on impure motivations, well whatever. Some good came of it, no?
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Old 2012-05-30, 18:50   Link #247
Qilin
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From all your posts you seem to greatly admire or at the very least promote this style of selflessness as the penultimate form of human morality. I fundamentally disagree. I think a man can still be great even if some of his motives are impure. After all, I love my family and expect that to be reciprocated... there's undeniable, intrinsic selfishness involved, but I don't see how that's an inherently bad thing.

Of course, in Kariya's case, his selfish motivations led to disaster. But had he saved Sakura and done so based on impure motivations, well whatever. Some good came of it, no?
All I wanted to say is that being selfless is just as bad as being selfish, maybe worse.

I'm not saying I admire him, and I'm certainly not looking to him as a good role model. It's quite the opposite actually. Kiritsugu is a monster, arguably even more so than Kirei or Zouken. However, he goes in the opposite extreme, going for a form of "extreme selflessness". He's a cruel deconstruction of the selfless superhero and a good example of what happens when a character is too selfless.

I'm not making moral judgments here, and I'm purposefully sidestepping that line of discussion. Please reconsider your baseless assertions.
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Old 2012-05-30, 19:04   Link #248
Ithekro
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Dogding such things does not help the flow of a conversation, nor foster a debate because one can sidestep the entire thing.

It is not well mannered to not take a position when one looks like they are taking a position as it makes your "opponent" look like a fool unintentionally because they always seem to misunderstand your point because you keep evading making one that is constant.
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Old 2012-05-30, 19:06   Link #249
Qilin
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^ I never brought up morality, yet the person brings it up out of context. I don't think I'm in the wrong here.
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Old 2012-05-30, 19:11   Link #250
Ithekro
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That may be, but the topic keeps heading in that direction because of the subject matter.

It also may be due to word usage as certan words can be attached to a moral stance.

Also humans tend to think in terms of moral ground when it comes to "right" and "wrong" even if those two words never come up in the conversation. Selfish and selfless tend to be draw in moral implications over an action.
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Old 2012-05-30, 19:24   Link #251
Qilin
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Also humans tend to think in terms of moral ground when it comes to "right" and "wrong" even if those two words never come up in the conversation. Selfish and selfless tend to be draw in moral implications over an action.
I can understand if it were just "right" and "wrong", but "selfish" and "selfless" always struck me as neutral words since they can be objectively defined. Or maybe that's just me speaking as a moral relativist.

Anyway, I avoid morality discussions because it's a quick way for an argument to go nowhere fast, but if anyone wants to pursue the subject, then I would willingly oblige.
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Old 2012-05-30, 19:26   Link #252
mAc Chaos
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^ I never brought up morality, yet the person brings it up out of context. I don't think I'm in the wrong here.
I'm still confused what exactly you have against Kariya, if you think everybody is selfish anyway. Even though his actions are far from selfish.

You're saying being selfish is bad, but being selfless is bad too. That's just confusing. :P

Plus, intentions are a murky thing. What about actions? Whether or not he did it for Aoi, he still wanted to save Sakura. That's still worth a lot in my book.
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Old 2012-05-30, 19:34   Link #253
Qilin
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I'm still confused what exactly you have against Kariya, if you think everybody is selfish anyway. Even though his actions are far from selfish.

You're saying being selfish is bad, but being selfless is bad too. That's just confusing. :P

Plus, intentions are a murky thing. What about actions? Whether or not he did it for Aoi, he still wanted to save Sakura. That's still worth a lot in my book.
It's his insistence on rationalizing his selfishness that bothers me. From my perspective, "saving Sakura" is just an excuse he says to himself to make his selfish motivations more palatable.

The rule of moderation is the key here. Extreme selflessness and selfishness should be avoided (arguably), though that's beside the point of this discussion.
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Old 2012-05-30, 19:42   Link #254
germanturkey
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what a tragic, tragic character. makes for very powerful viewing experiences.
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Old 2012-05-30, 19:51   Link #255
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change of subject here

Any predictions on how Kriya will die?

1. in a Blaze of Glory as he give all he can in a fight to the death.

2. like a dog in a ditch/sewer un-notice and un-mourn while his last breath is taking by Berserker.

3. in a patheically delusion state thinking he had/will save Sakura.
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Old 2012-05-30, 20:21   Link #256
zRyuu
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Both 2 and 3.

Last edited by zRyuu; 2012-05-30 at 20:54.
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Old 2012-05-30, 21:34   Link #257
Ithekro
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All three I'd say. Attempting to go down in a Blaze of Glory, died unmourned and ignored due to Berserker, who would of course take the spotlight (most servants do when they die as well) all while having a delution about Sakura as he dies.

It would be just the sort of false Hope thing Gen loves to thrown his characters into.
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Old 2012-05-31, 01:44   Link #258
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The anime changed the scenario with Aoi's "death" from the light novel:

Spoiler:
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Old 2012-05-31, 04:49   Link #259
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The anime changed the scenario with Aoi's "death" from the light novel:

Spoiler:
Strange Ufotable would change it this much.
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Old 2012-05-31, 05:11   Link #260
fertygo
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Because that scenario not working effectively with all Aoi, Kariya, and Tokiomi stuff that they totally skipped.
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