noitaminA anime block discussion

[karice67]

Originally Posted by hyl

If that is the case, why does it matter that those earlier mentioned series that some of us fgrew up with are supposed to be mainstream for the USA if we are talking talking about japan.

Because people were trying to explain what "mainstream" actually means?

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

In terms of Noitamina we mean mainstream for Japan.

And the same applies to all the other franchises you mentioned when talking about "what's popular in your country".

In case you need it pointed out:

Originally Posted by hyl

Yet there are also atleast an equal amount of people (otaku and non otaku alike) who don't like the mentioned shows and most non anime/manga readers haven't heard of those shows, so your point is? Most children in my neighbourhood don't know what anime is and because pokemon stopped airing in my country , they have never even heard of it. And sailor moon bombed in my country, so it haven't been aired on tv for roughly 8 years. One piece, bleach and many other animes never aired in this country and the mangas that were published were not succesfull at all.

So, once again, why does it even matter that these aren't mainstream in your country? Of course they aren't.

I don't know about you, but I have always been talking about mainstream in Japan, not in my country. Or yours. Because 'mainstream in Japan' is what matters for the Japanese box office.

edit: if you want mainstream worldwide, then go look up the worldwide box office records lists. Bet you won't find something like pokemon, Kamen Rider or the Gantz films on them. It's quite possible that even the most recent Ghibli film won't make it on there.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by karice67

I don't know about you, but I have always been talking about mainstream in Japan, not in my country. Or yours. Because 'mainstream in Japan' is what matters for the Japanese box office.

Yeah, Triple_R only used examples of foreign works to explain what mainstream brands are in general.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by cyth

Yeah, Triple_R only used examples of foreign works to explain what mainstream brands are in general.

Yeah, I'll take some blame for the confusion here.

I only have a very, very vague conception of what is and is not mainstream in Japan. I do, however, have a pretty good conception of what is and is not mainstream in my country of Canada, and in North America as a whole. So that's why my examples of mainstream brands were Canadian/North American, just to make sure those examples were actual legit examples.

But yes, the key (for the purposes of this discussion) is what is mainstream in Japan, not anywhere else. I raised "local mainstream" vs. "global mainstream" for just this reason, but admittedly I could have been a bit more clear there. I was originally going to cite Aya Hirano has somebody who is "mainstream" in Japan, but not well-known at all in some parts of the world, but I was a little unsure about Hirano's current level of popularity.

[Kirarakim]

Again I don't think mainstream in terms of this discussion has to mean popular necessarily just targeted to a more general audience than what Otaku anime are.

Otaku anime do sell well to a small specific audience but they don't have broad appeal.

[Pocari_Sweat]

For me, it's not a matter of whether anime becomes more "mainstream" (be it for what it is for a Japanese audience, Western Audience or global audience) as a whole, but whether there is variety in anime.

As we all know, there has been an influx of slice of life shows, specifically the ever-growing amount of shows that focus on "cute girls doing cute things" or the next "generic" LN adaptation. Fanservice on its own is kinda irrelevant on its since it has existed forever.

My problem with modern anime in general is not whether or not it's mainstream or for a niche audience, but this "checklist" approach to cater towards one niche section of the anime fandom. I'm talking about checklists that almost guarantee all or a lot of the following:

Wimpy, weak male lead
Tsundere, Yandere, Kuudere, Dandere etc.
"Caveman" fanservice - guy falling on top of girl, obnoxious pantyshots, walking into a room with a female changing following by screaming and slap, jiggling breasts
Lolis in general
Really high-pitched, "forced cuteness" from VAs
Middle-school/high-school settings
Teenagers
Love Triangles and/or Harems
Gag, Slapstick and other forms of very "anime" comedy that only the "hardcore" otakus will find funny or understand

etc.

There's a fair few more, but I'm sure people know what I mean. It just gets tiring to see the same premise, the same character archtypes, the same fanservice, the same comedy. This checklist restraint leads to shoddy directing, script writing and it also indirectly restricts genres. For example, when was the last quality fantasy anime series that wasn't some random JRPG adaptation? How about the last quality sci-fi that wasn't a mecha (excepting Steins Gate and Time of Eve)? And even if there was, how disproportionate are they in comparison to your average LN adaptation hoohah shonen romcom or slice of life featuring an all girl cast with a harem male lead?

This is where noitamina comes in and gives people wanting variety a breather and actually trying to do something different... most of the time. Yes, some noitamina shows have sucked, and there has indeed been a trend of getting more "hardcore otaku" centric shows into the slot such as Fractal, Anohana, Guilty Crown and Black Rock Shooter, all with variable rates of success, but it's this attempt at variety that made and still makes noitamina special compared to the rest of the TV channels and slots and whatnot. Not because it's trying to be mainstream. I mean, let's face it. Anime is a niche. If you're not one of the Big Shonens, a "Japanese cartoon" aimed at kids, Ghibli or a handful of other movie directors like Mamoru Hosoda or Makoto Shinkai, you're not mainstream.

And trying to make anime based on what is mainstream in the US is also dumb. You think superhero premises, rouchy sex comedies/sitcoms or police/detective shows gonna do well in Japan as a whole, let alone in an anime medium? Hell no. That's just financial suicide. I surely would welcome a few "American-style" animes once in a while but I don't want nor expect it to convert like that. Plus, "mainstream" entertainment has their own checklists which can be equally as annoying.

What can be controlled though is a bit more variety in the medium. And don't worry, Western TV, Hollywood and the gaming industry could use that too. It's not just anime. Entertainment in general could use a bit more creativity and variety.

As the old idiom goes "Variety is the spice of life".

Back on topic, as long as noitamina at least tries to maintain this variety, I'll be one reasonably happy camper. This was a part of the reason why a lot of "noitamina fans" were not very happy when something like Guilty Crown was on slot, or when Black Rock Shooter got almost a full season compared to Therma Romae which a mere 3 episodes. Fortunately 2011 and 2012 so far has been pretty good in the variety department compared to previous years in general, so I'm also a happy camper in that regard.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Yeah, I'll take some blame for the confusion here.

I wasn't trying to blame you or anything. I'm pretty certain I got what you were driving at (trying to explain what 'mainstream' is), but I'm also pretty certain the person you were trying to explain that to didn't...

It's a bit difficult to gauge how popular Hirano Aya is...her managing company is trying to push her into the mainstream, getting her spots on TV shows etc...but it still seems to be mostly anime/seiyuu otaku who talk about her...

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Again I don't think mainstream in terms of this discussion has to mean popular necessarily just targeted to a more general audience than what Otaku anime are.

Otaku anime do sell well to a small specific audience but they don't have broad appeal.

WORD.

[Last Sinner]

I'm calling that Silver Spoon gets adapted as a noitaminA series in 2013 and I'd be rather stunned if it wasn't. Considering Moyashimon is getting a 2nd series, not having a go at Silver Spoon since it's been the strongest selling new title of late in Japan would be an opportunity wasted. Arakawa going to her roots rather then shounen and still raking in sales with material fitting the demographic? Surely it would get a go.

[ahelo]

You know what's perfect for noitaminA? March comes in like a lion.

[Guardian Enzo]

I'm holding out for Otoyomegatari.

[Kirarakim]

Although I would love anime adaptions of both March Comes in Like a Lion & Silver Spoon (even though I have not read them I am a fan of the manga-ka's other work) not sure if I want either adapted on Noitamina. I would like for them to be as long as possible and that is not guaranteed on Noitamina.

If the block would adapt the whole manga like they did with Honey & Clover & Nodame then I would be more for these adaptions.

But with the current block adapting everything into 11 episodes I think I would rather see them adapt shorter manga or put more original material (although not something like Guilty Crown)


A Bride's Story also sounds like great material for an adaption. Actually that might fit better in a small episode count because from what I understand the manga is made up of short stories.

Also even though it wasn't on Noitamina before I think adapting the rest of Mushishi could work for the block, again because they are episodic stories and just having any more of Mushishi would make me very happy.


Actually this post makes me think of how much great source material is out there just waiting to be adapted.

And yes more Chihayafuru please (although of course that request has nothing to do with Noitamina)

[DonQuigleone]

I'd say novels would make good fodder for noitaminA. I'd say you could tell an average novel in about 11 episodes.

[Guardian Enzo]

This season's NoitaminA is 12 eps, so there's no theoretical reason it couldn't return to that standard.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

This season's NoitaminA is 12 eps, so there's no theoretical reason it couldn't return to that standard.

Actually from what I understand Sakamichi no Apollon is 12 episodes but Tsuritama is only going to be 11.

And well I meant one cour is too short for a lot of adaptions (whether it is 11 or even 13 episodes). I just feel a lot of stories are rushed through and things are cut to fit them into a shorter episode length and I would not want to see a great manga reduced to that.

Of course there is no reason NoitaminA couldn't expand the block to more episodes but they don't seem willing to for most titles.

I mean just look at Sakamichi no Apollon. Yes Watanabe is doing a good job but there was definitely enough material for at least a 2 cour series but instead things have to be skipped to fit it into 1 cour.

edit: And I know this post makes it sound like I don't like NoitaminA, I really do. But I think it is flawed.

[Last Sinner]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Actually from what I understand Sakamichi no Apollon is 12 episodes but Tsuritama is only going to be 11.

And well I meant one cour is too short for a lot of adaptions (whether it is 11 or even 13 episodes). I just feel a lot of stories are rushed through and things are cut to fit them into a shorter episode length and I would not want to see a great manga reduced to that.

Of course there is no reason NoitaminA couldn't expand the block to more episodes but they don't seem willing to for most titles.

I mean just look at Sakamichi no Apollon. Yes Watanabe is doing a good job but there was definitely enough material for at least a 2 cour series but instead things have to be skipped to fit it into 1 cour.

edit: And I know this post makes it sound like I don't like NoitaminA, I really do. But I think it is flawed.

I think most of us agree with you.

The simple fact is - noitaminA is not that profitable a time slot. AnoHana was an anomalie. Most titles in that bracket just aren't pitched at paying fans and they don't get enough sales to justify a 2nd season.

[Guardian Enzo]

Syoboi seems to think Tsuritama is 12, FWIW.

[TJR]

Wow, someone recently translated a great discussion between producers. It's worth the read, especially if you're interested in their views on anime trends and in the alliance between Fuji TV, Aniplex, and Good Smile Company.

http://akirascuro.wordpress.com/2012...ture-of-anime/

This season's NoitaminA is 12 eps, so there's no theoretical reason it couldn't return to that standard.

An 11 episode count seems to be standard for evening dramas. Maybe it's just more convenient for them to structure noitaminA the same way.

[Kakkou]

FYI Tsuritama is 12 eps. The DVD/BD listings say so (6 volumes @ 2 eps each).

[Kirarakim]

Well it's good to know Tsuritama is one episode longer than I thought. Thanks!


As for the 1 cour episode count I am not saying it is always bad. There are some shows that fit well into that number of episodes. But I feel its been a recent trend (and it isn't necessarily just on noitaminA) to stuff longer material into one cour thereby sacrificing the material.

Hence if the series can only be 1 cour I would rather see series that would fit better into that length than adapt long manga series. In the past I think there were a lot of good 1 cour shows (and there still are) but lately I do feel producers are not picking series that fit into this length but instead stuffing shows that do not fit.

I am not saying I wouldn't want those manga series adapted but if they are going to be adapted then I want to see justice done to them. That doesn't mean squeezing them into 1 cour. In some ways I do think it is better to have no adaption than a bad adaption.


edit: The article TJR posted was an interesting read, especially the confirmation the industry wants to move away from light novel adaptions to more original material (which I believe a recent poll showed what the fans wanted).

Of course it doesn't really focus more on the shows I want to see on NoitaminA, as the talk was focused on Guilty Crown & BRS (in my opinion two of the worst shows on the block).

[ahelo]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Actually from what I understand Sakamichi no Apollon is 12 episodes but Tsuritama is only going to be 11.

And well I meant one cour is too short for a lot of adaptions (whether it is 11 or even 13 episodes). I just feel a lot of stories are rushed through and things are cut to fit them into a shorter episode length and I would not want to see a great manga reduced to that.

Of course there is no reason NoitaminA couldn't expand the block to more episodes but they don't seem willing to for most titles.

I mean just look at Sakamichi no Apollon. Yes Watanabe is doing a good job but there was definitely enough material for at least a 2 cour series but instead things have to be skipped to fit it into 1 cour.

edit: And I know this post makes it sound like I don't like NoitaminA, I really do. But I think it is flawed.

But that's just wishful thinking already since getting funding for "noitaminA" type anime is hard to come by anyway (Chihayafuru). I understand where this is coming from though since the 11-episode format almost always leaves a lot of shows hanging.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Of course it doesn't really focus more on the shows I want to see on NoitaminA, as the talk was focused on Guilty Crown & BRS (in my opinion two of the worst shows on the block).

They really are. I don't know how I feel about diving into original works. Manga provides testing ground for stories and themes that deviate from the norm. Those with more interesting stories will get an anime adaptation, alongside every risk-averse property, but at least they'll get that chance because they've already proven themselves in another popular medium. Manga medium creates chances for properties to spring up, while anime expands their audience. So the reason why we get Guilty Crowns and not something outside of the ordinary is because they want these original properties to spring up. Aside from heavy promotion, what else do these original stories have to stand on except for artificially generated hype?

It might even be so that if Guilty Crown was a manga original, it might have had less of a chance with animation producers, because the manga audience would find it boring. Guilty Crown, coupled with great animation, is just a really safe story to go with. I'm afraid that even though Noitamina says they want to do original programing, they will not risk to animate a story that's outside of the ordinary.

As fans, we shouldn't equate original programing with quality programing, even though anime originals have that sort of ring to it. I wonder how well original TV programing did historically, even outside of Noitamina.