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Old 2012-05-30, 10:14   Link #681
Kismet-chan
The Chaotic Dreamer
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
It's a sad world we live in when the slightest hint of friendship between men is instantly construed as homosexual.
Quoted for truth. *sighs*
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Old 2012-05-30, 11:34   Link #682
Guardian Enzo
Seishu's Ace
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You have no idea. This is a battle I fight every week on RC, to no avail - the hits just keep on coming.

My view is simple - while depiction of male friendship used to be a common anime theme, it's so rare these days that every time two guys show the slightest concern for each other, the yaoi goggles come out (no pun intended).

Last edited by Guardian Enzo; 2012-05-30 at 11:58.
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Old 2012-05-30, 11:53   Link #683
Merry
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Join Date: Feb 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsu Breaker View Post
This is a fuyoshi serie, right? I mean, the bromance are powerfull in this one
Why don't you take the time to actually read a description of the story, instead of jumping to stereotypical assumptions that put you in a less than favorable light?
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Old 2012-05-30, 12:37   Link #684
SeijiSensei
AS Oji-kun
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merry View Post
Why don't you take the time to actually read a description of the story, instead of jumping to stereotypical assumptions that put you in a less than favorable light?
Or, heaven forbid, actually watch the show before making any judgements. By the way, Kitsu Breaker, the word is "fujoshi".
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Old 2012-05-30, 13:22   Link #685
Kismet-chan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
Or, heaven forbid, actually watch the show before making any judgements. By the way, Kitsu Breaker, the word is "fujoshi".
This x 500.
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Old 2012-05-30, 18:20   Link #686
DragoonKain3
Osana-Najimi Shipper
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
It's a sad world we live in when the slightest hint of friendship between men is instantly construed as homosexual.
I dunno, tell that to the fujoshis. I know my slasher friends are ecstatic over this series (heck I've seen fanart prints of these two in Anime North's Artist Alley just this past weekend, for crying out loud) but I guess that's just a small sample size...
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Old 2012-05-30, 19:00   Link #687
Guardian Enzo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
I dunno, tell that to the fujoshis. I know my slasher friends are ecstatic over this series (heck I've seen fanart prints of these two in Anime North's Artist Alley just this past weekend, for crying out loud) but I guess that's just a small sample size...
It seems to me that rather confirms the point TRL was making, not refutes it.
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Old 2012-05-30, 21:01   Link #688
fertygo
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I hate all the homo stereotype that coming from this thread all day, but how calling this "fujoshi series" is an insult? Its a jousei afterall. Me personally would call it like that too, n that's not a shame at all. Just saying.
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Old 2012-05-30, 21:15   Link #689
Eragon
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Who cares about the genre. Watanabe directed a show with this bottom line

And the work which has become a genre unto itself shall be called, Cowboy Bebop
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Old 2012-05-31, 02:00   Link #690
kuromitsu
我、勝てり!
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fertygo View Post
how calling this "fujoshi series" is an insult?
It's an insult because "eeww some icky girls are liking the show in ways that we don't agree with."

Sorry but I really can't stand this attiude. What does it bother anyone as long as those fans are not insisting that Sen & Kaoru are in fact into each other and not their respective love interests in canon? Apollon is, in not a small part, about the love between Sen and Kaoru: it's pretty much the backbone of the show. It may not be romantic love, but frankly, it could be, if it was that kind of manga/anime. (Seriously, read vols 4-5 of the manga.) Is it so weird that some people have fun imagining there's something more to it? Do they hurt anyone with it?

Btw, Guardian Enzo - you are aware that the whole yaoi/BL thing it not a recent thing at all, right? Not even remotely recent. And it was, in part, the abundance of Passionate Male Friendships(TM)/Rivalries that kickstarted its popularity...

Last edited by kuromitsu; 2012-05-31 at 02:15.
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Old 2012-05-31, 03:39   Link #691
Guardian Enzo
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Yaoi and BL have been around almost as long as anime. Seeing yaoi and BL in every non-yaoi series with two guys in it is largely a recent phenomenon.

Sorry, but I don't buy the argument that every series that focuses on male friendship should have to answer endless "yaoi" questions is normal or encouraging. It’s largely a reflection of the increasingly homogeneous gender mix in anime and homophobia. Real fujoshi know yaoi when they see it, and don't need to ask about shows like this one.
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Old 2012-05-31, 06:48   Link #692
DragoonKain3
Osana-Najimi Shipper
 
 
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I wouldn't say it is a 'recent' phenomenon though, unless you count at least 17 years (starting with NGE/Gundam Wing being the earliest biggest ones I came across) as being recent. Heck, the VERY term fujoshi refers to the fact that they see homosexual tendencies where normal people would see none. And the term fujoshi has been circulating around for a very long time already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
It seems to me that rather confirms the point TRL was making, not refutes it.
Wait a minute, TRL wasn't being sarcastic? XD
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Last edited by DragoonKain3; 2012-05-31 at 06:58.
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Old 2012-05-31, 08:34   Link #693
Kirarakim
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Kurama/Hiei were also a popular couple among yaoi fan girls. I am sure it goes back earlier than that.

After all in Western fandom you can see this phenomena as early as the whole Kirk/Spock thing.

My policy is just let fans see what they want as long as they don't insist it's canon it doesn't bother me.

Personally I am just happy to get two series on Noitamina focused on close friendship.

Anyways while there might be Fujoshi shippers for this series I don't actually think it is that popular with Fujoshi fans. I mean I don't see it being the next Durarara or Tiger & Bunny which fan girls really latched onto.
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Old 2012-05-31, 12:54   Link #694
ID555
Kamaboko smash & grab
 
 
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Spoiler for ep 8:
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Old 2012-05-31, 13:21   Link #695
leokiko
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Time to compare it to Hyouka xD. I know I did when I read the manga of this part (which coincided with the episode that week).

@to the episode: I didn't like it. The manga was much better, specially Jun-nii's past.

Last edited by leokiko; 2012-05-31 at 13:33.
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Old 2012-05-31, 13:34   Link #696
Gankutsuou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
It's a sad world we live in when the slightest hint of friendship between men is instantly construed as homosexual.
"Slightest" hint of friendship? Are you even watching the show?

[mod edit: removed allusions to future manga content; please no spoilers in an anime thread]

If Kaoru was a female character, none of you "heteronormative" commentators would even doubt the potential for "romance" between Kaoru and Sen. So, stop telling "fujoshi" fans what they should be feeling when they watch the show. Just enjoy the damn show and let others enjoy it!

Lastly, please notice that this is NOT your typical shounen show in which the guy always gets the girl in the end. This is a Josei, and many Josei titles have dealt with homosexuality. Some Josei titles that I have read even depicts the main characters as openly gay.

Last edited by relentlessflame; 2012-05-31 at 23:40. Reason: removed spoilers
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Old 2012-05-31, 13:43   Link #697
Utsuro no Hako
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
I dunno, tell that to the fujoshis. I know my slasher friends are ecstatic over this series (heck I've seen fanart prints of these two in Anime North's Artist Alley just this past weekend, for crying out loud) but I guess that's just a small sample size...
I don't have any problem with fujoshi or anyone else reading gay subtext into the series if a gay romance is something they want to see -- there's not a lot of options for them, so shipping is their best option. The problem is (A) the cries of, "Eww! Gay cooties!" any time a show focuses on two male characters, and (B) the snickering about fujoshi even though nobody ever complains about yuri-fanboys squeeing any time two girls share a tender moment.
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Old 2012-05-31, 14:22   Link #698
Gankutsuou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako View Post
I don't have any problem with fujoshi or anyone else reading gay subtext into the series if a gay romance is something they want to see -- there's not a lot of options for them, so shipping is their best option. The problem is (A) the cries of, "Eww! Gay cooties!" any time a show focuses on two male characters, and (B) the snickering about fujoshi even though nobody ever complains about yuri-fanboys squeeing any time two girls share a tender moment.
I agree and Thank you! We need more viewers like you.


Anyway, I just watched episode 8 and my goodness, the anime is really fast forwarding the manga. But I guess that's a good thing seeing how I don't see how they will make a second season since it's on Noitama and the low popularity doesn't seem to justify a second season.
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Old 2012-05-31, 16:34   Link #699
Kaoru Chujo
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A very strong episode, ep8. Strong from Riichan. Strong from Kaoru and Sen. But Jun-nii and Yurika together is seiyuu gold -- Suwabe Junichi and Endou Aya start talking and I drown in their voices. I love the fact that no-one here is evil, just lost and confused. Like many of us.

As someone who had read the original said before this show even started, there is no real gay subtext here, but there is enough in the relationship between Kaoru and Sen that you can invent one pretty easily. I say go for it if you want.

The friendship between Sen and Kaoru is front and center, and so are the potential male-female romances: Sen/Riichan, Sen/Yurika, Kaoru/Richan, and Yurika/Jun-nii. But I see no gay subtext, myself -- and I would be glad to see one if it were there. Not that the emotional relationships could get much more complicated than they are already, lol.
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Old 2012-05-31, 17:23   Link #700
Dawnstorm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gankutsuou View Post
If Kaoru was a female character, none of you "heteronormative" commentators would even doubt the potential for "romance" between Kaoru and Sen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako View Post
(B) the snickering about fujoshi even though nobody ever complains about yuri-fanboys squeeing any time two girls share a tender moment.
It's difficult to explain. What bothers me, personally, is a tendency to go for pair-bonding as the narrative default. And if this takes over, it drives out other narrative constellations: it's as if the only sort of intimacy that's worthy of a story is romantic love. I'm just tired of that. If it's male-female, what's bothering me is the implication that male-female friendships are impossible/romantic couples in denial/stepping stones to romance. If it's same gender, what's bothering me is that bodily contact is automatically assumed to be sexual in nature (an example would be Sen grabbing Kaoru's hand and running).

There's a reason why you don't see me complaining, usually. It's very hard to rail against that, because, after all, those sort of stories are worthwhile of telling. A trend is never a single show's fault, so it's unfair to rail about this one.

Sakamichi no Apollon is in my top three this season. It's a great show, but the plot isn't the main draw for me. And, yes, I was sort of miffed to see Ritsuko crushing on Sentaro, not because there's anything wrong with this, but simply because it's yet another missed opportunity for a portrayal of male-female friendship.

The ultimate effect of all that combined is a sexualisation of intimacy in a way that makes modern society feel... lonely. As if being comfortable with another prerson is so rare that it has to automatically lead to a pair-bonding default. It's slightly depressing. It's never really the fault of any single show. I guess you could say I'm an "unshipper". Wherever I see people get along, and others want to make them a pair, I go "Why can't they just stay friends?"

But complaining about this is complaining about a trend, not about a particular show. I don't care enough to make a thread about it, and I don't usually peeve about this in a thread about a show, so you don't often see me complain. Every now and then I may snap. It last happened with No. 6 (talk about bad timing, heh - the main couple's relationship turned out to be the best thing about the show).
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