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View Poll Results: Aquarion EVOL - Episode 23 Rating
Perfect 10 12 18.46%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 13 20.00%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 8 12.31%
7 out of 10 : Good 3 4.62%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 4.62%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 1.54%
4 out of 10 : Poor 4 6.15%
3 out of 10 : Bad 2 3.08%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 1.54%
1 out of 10 : Painful 18 27.69%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-06-04, 12:06   Link #221
Shinji103
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Originally Posted by KleenexGhost View Post
It shocks me when I go on myanimelist and I see people so adamant that it's genius and set up well blows my mind.
There will always be die-hard defenders who will stand up for something no matter how low it gets.....
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Old 2012-06-04, 12:11   Link #222
Kakkou
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
What I don't understand is why did Fudo say that Celiane only reincarnated into Silvia than into Mikono? Yet Fudo says that Apollo split this time by Mykage. What's his angle for leaving out Sirius?
Fudo said that the part of Celiane that loved was what reincarnated into Silvia. Sirius was Celiane's negative emotions, not love.
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Old 2012-06-04, 12:11   Link #223
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Originally Posted by KleenexGhost View Post
How people consider this plot twist brilliant shocks me.
Some people will defend anything, some people just want to enjoy a show for what it is, but I do agree at some point their ought to be a cutoff, where it's okay to criticize a plot twist here or there for what it means to the overall narrative. This is the sort of twist that cuts against the narrative the franchise has been trying to establish for pretty much it's entire run leaving the last 3 episodes to try to justify it or not. That's something even I would find pretty tough to defend.

Ways in which I could see such a twist working to a shows potential advantage is if the narrative had worked in such a way that he turned out not to be Apollonius, but some rival of his and this spelled a dillema heading into the final stretch. In fact there are tons of other ways that they could have gone with this whole he's not really who he appeared to be angle, but making him a loyal dog has certain implications and one has to ask themselves how you run with something like that for the remainder. If this isn't the point where Okada wrote herself into a corner with this TV show I don't know what is.

Forget the meta-stuff, forget the whole being amused by "trolling" (or whatever you want to call it) for a second, and just consider what such a twist would mean for any sort of example of quality writing or narrative structure. Is it really satisfactory when you strip all the external nonsense away and just look at the structure of the story itself.
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Old 2012-06-04, 12:15   Link #224
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Originally Posted by Kakkou View Post
Fudo said that the part of Celiane that loved was what reincarnated into Silvia. Sirius was Celiane's negative emotions, not love.
Negative emotions that are so negative that he sacrified himself to save the world and the sister he loved. Don't forget that they still showed the negative Amata anyway for the Apollo spliit so there was no reason not to forget Sirius unless they decided they didn't want to throw the gay possibility at Amata like they threw the beastality thing at Mikono.
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Old 2012-06-04, 12:20   Link #225
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Kaioshin Sama: not to get into a protracted argument, but if you look at it as a way to show the hubris of any mortal who'd be so foolhardy as to claim to know know anything about fate with any certainty...you might understand where some of us are coming from.
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Old 2012-06-04, 12:23   Link #226
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Originally Posted by KleenexGhost View Post
It shocks me when I go on myanimelist and I see people so adamant that it's genius and set up well just blows my mind.
Get rid of "genius", leave "blows my mind" and yeh, you pretty much got how I saw this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Forget the meta-stuff, forget the whole being amused by "trolling" (or whatever you want to call it) for a second, and just consider what such a twist would mean for any sort of example of quality writing or narrative structure. Is it really satisfactory when you strip all the external nonsense away and just look at the structure of the story itself.
Agreed, especially since "All this time these 12000 7 odd years, it was not love from a dog!" was pretty how people who've been watching this show would see this originally. Then again, it is just another fictional story and we should just chill but come on, you know we can enjoy a story with so much more to offer then this, with "this" being subject to opinions.
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Old 2012-06-04, 12:24   Link #227
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@Shinji Soooo true

@Kaioshin Like you said, you can be a fan and still point out flaws. example I like Bleach, but I'll be damned if it doesn't drag in some arcs.

Don't compromise storytelling for a plot twist. That's something M. Night Shyamalan does.
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Old 2012-06-04, 12:24   Link #228
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Negative emotions that are so negative that he sacrified himself to save the world and the sister he loved.
Hey, your dear lovely Genesis also brought up that very fact that Sirius was the negative part of Celiane's soul. It didn't mean that he was incapable of loving nor did I ever imply that. It's simply that his reincarnation was based off that part of Celiane. In the end just like Silvia and every other damn person who reincarnated, they are their own person despite whatever shit went down 12000 years ago. I'm just making light of what Fudo mentioned in this ep and what was presented in Genesis.
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Old 2012-06-04, 12:26   Link #229
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Originally Posted by KleenexGhost View Post
How people consider this plot twist brilliant shocks me.
I said "well set up" not brilliant. The plot twist itself it still stupid as fuck.

This latest piece of work pretty much sums up Mari Okada in a nutshell: "Intentionally wasted effort"
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Old 2012-06-04, 12:27   Link #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auron Requies View Post
Get rid of "genius", leave "blows my mind" and yeh, you pretty much got how I saw this.



Agreed, especially since "All this time these 12000 7 odd years, it was not love from a dog!" was pretty how people who've been watching this show would see this originally. Then again, it is just another fictional story and we should just chill but come on, you know we can enjoy a story with so much more to offer then this, with "this" being subject to opinions.
Oh yeah totally, like I never had any love for Aquarion to begin with (though I do sympathize with those who did and feel that it's been trivialized by this twist and that's also a part of the reason for my being a part of this discussion), I just feel like making a point about the writing styles of those involved and using it as an example of what I've been arguing for a few months now. Like I said in the Mari Okada discussion thread, I'm just glad she's never managed to write for anything I truly care about and I really do hope it stays that way. Her services are definitely not wanted or required by me.
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Old 2012-06-04, 12:28   Link #231
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Originally Posted by Kakkou View Post
Hey, your dear lovely Genesis also brought up that very fact that Sirius was the negative part of Celiane's soul. It didn't mean that he was incapable of loving nor did I ever imply that. It's simply that his reincarnation was based off that part of Celiane. In the end just like Silvia and every other damn person who reincarnated, they are their own person despite whatever shit went down 12000 years ago. I'm just making light of what Fudo mentioned in this ep and what was presented in Genesis.
Yet he wasn't mentioned yet Negative Amata was. They clearly left hm out on purpose because of the gayness implications which is dumb because they have a gay angel trolling everyone and their love story is based off beastality. Also watch your tone, no need for the hostilities.
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Old 2012-06-04, 12:32   Link #232
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I think Amata has already escaped the fate of being the incarnation of Pollon, thanks to Mykage separated him.

Amata were drawn to Mikono because for him Mikono is Mikono-saaaaan. It's just a cruel fate that made Amata fall in love (or obsessed ) with the same girl who was his past life's lover. But that's not the reason he loves her, isn't it? Unlike Kagura who were drawn to Mikono because she is 'his' Sylvie/a.
Nah, this episode literally smacks you upside the head with Amata/Kagura being fated with Mikono. Now, the reasons that Amata and Kagura purport for their affection are certainly different but, as Zessica oh so depressingly equivocated, she's an intruder on a 12,000+ year old story (so fate is still there, its still fated, it just that the reasons are not limited to "because fate said so", but either option still follows in line with fate... so fate wouldn't care). So, again, we have a fated pairing but the male side is fighting itself over it because of Mykage's shenanigans but neither has escaped that fate. (We're also at a bit of an impasse, you have Detachment Wings as a plot point hanging off in the background somewhere which bested Kagura, you have Amata's claim of *now and here* failing miserably with his Wings of Glory losing to and being stopped by Kagura, and you have Fudo's background lessons, particularly the one during the wings, could easily be spun into *you're doing it wrong* towards Amata to explain why Fudo interfered as much as he did. The dichotomy of the two wings is really the most peculiar detail.)

You can easily break them all down into *good* or *bad* takes on each character, but at this point neither is more justified in their affection (especially since neither has ever stopped to ask what Mikono thinks):
(1.) Kagura, not even meant to exist, and having only one memory to call his own and on which to build an identity, went forward and made himself and his identity real.
(2.) Amata, having every option to be free of fate, ended up getting dragged into it and, in the process, lost his identity (you can see this happening through the show where he either compares himself to or tries to emulate Kagura).
Or
(1.) Kagura is just fate's puppet, playing along blindly because it gives him comfort.
(2.) Amata is following fate but to his own tune.
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Old 2012-06-04, 12:32   Link #233
KleenexGhost
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I said "well set up" not brilliant. The plot twist itself it still stupid as fuck.

This latest piece of work pretty much sums up Mari Okada in a nutshell: "Wasted effort"
Sorry I wasn't talking about you. No offense, i was talking about some people on tumblr that were calling this brilliant.

Wasted effort describes Okada and wasted potential describes this series.
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Old 2012-06-04, 12:36   Link #234
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I don't know how the hell you create a plot twist that's both cleverly set up yet utterly banal, but somehow they've done it...
Well, the issue with the plot twist is that aside from how it's pretty amusing just on the face of it, it doesn't really change anything.

This sort of plot twist only really matters if it matters to the characters themselves.

In other words, is Amata going to care that he's the reincarnation of a dog? Is Mikono going to care? Is any character going to treat Amata differently because he's a dog's reincarnation instead of Appolonius' reincarnation? No?

Then, well, it doesn't really change a whole lot in a practical "right now" way. Yes, it could point to a pattern - The person you love in life may be denied you in this life, but maybe you'll get to be with that "same person" 12,000 years later.

But, honestly, I don't find this idea all that compelling. I guess it could be good news for Zessica, but it's pretty faint good news.


Whatever you think of the concept of soulmates that stick together from one life to the next to the next, at least it's a concept that a lot of people are familiar with (even if most of us don't seriously believe in reincarnation), and it's an interesting concept to think about. At some level, it does seem "romantic": two souls fated to be together and who will be with each other forever from one life to the next.

But this dog's breakfast of Aquarion EVOL reincarnation handling is neither here nor there really...
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Old 2012-06-04, 12:37   Link #235
Qilin
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It's strange. I really didn't see anything wrong about Apollo being the reincarnation of a dog as I watched the episode initially since it's not really unusual for a person to reincarnate as a plant or even a cockroach. At least, that's as long we use traditional Hinduism as a reference.

But then, after referring to this thread and a certain image board, I got to see the entire context behind it, which is to say that this episode basically defecated on the events of the original series. Knowing all that, this dreadfully boring episode suddenly becomes pretty damn hilarious.

I guess this is one of those things that can be enjoyed most after watching the original series, huh?
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Old 2012-06-04, 12:37   Link #236
Vena
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I said "well set up" not brilliant. The plot twist itself it still stupid as fuck.

This latest piece of work pretty much sums up Mari Okada in a nutshell: "Intentionally wasted effort"
You know, if the set-up was done well, then the writers did their job but they are not the sole people behind the complete story. In fact, I doubt Okada had any more say in this than giving form to what she was told was the desired outcome, so if the presentation was well executed then the people choreographing the story (ie. the writers) have done a good job with what they were given.

If Kawamori says: "I want Apollo to be a dog."
And Mari says: "If you say so, boss."

Who do you blame?
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Old 2012-06-04, 12:37   Link #237
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Zessica the series punching bag.

Kawamori definitely gets a lot of the blame too

Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2012-06-04 at 13:24. Reason: Please edit your post and refrain from double posting...
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Old 2012-06-04, 12:41   Link #238
Kakkou
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Yet he wasn't mentioned yet Negative Amata was. They clearly left hm out on purpose because of the gayness implications which is dumb because they have a gay angel trolling everyone and their love story is based off beastality.
Because Dark Amata wasn't naturally split and reincarnated like how Celiane was. Mykage forcefully did it. And that was after Amata was already born and lived for a few years.

You know it's perfectly fine to be hating and disliking on the very twist itself but it becomes hard to seriously take it as a valid opinion and not just hating for the sake of hating when people just throw every single part of the info presented as trolling without actually taking proper consideration about how and why. On top of that throw words like beastiality around without really knowing what they mean or how they're applied. Of course, this also applies to the opposite side of the spectrum. Middle ground? What's that?

Anyway I clearly recall why I hardly participate in episode discussions so I'll just keep lurking and enjoying whatever amusement I can get, be it from the show itself or the discussions and shitstorms it generates.
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Old 2012-06-04, 12:45   Link #239
ReddyRedWolf
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Having rewatched Genesis of Aquarion episode 16 here is my interpretation.

Spoiler:



It is Rena that led Silvia to Apollo in the first place. In the OVA the after effect of the dimensional distortions led to a clue where Apollo was.

In the TV series and OVA universes it is Rena who can read the Book of Genesis.

Like Fudo Rena, doesn't age. Which gives me to the speculation on the whole Body, Heart and Soul thing.

Much like in the OVA in the TV universe Apollonius, Celiane and Scorpius were the pilots of Aquarion. Scorpius did back stab Apollonius. But much like Celiane that split into Silvia and Sirius, Apollonius was split... into three pieces. The Aquarion, Fudo and Rena.

Which is why Fudo and Rena knew more what was going on than the rest of them.
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Old 2012-06-04, 12:45   Link #240
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Still pretty horrorible that they painted the Aquarion story as reincarnation love and they reveal that it was just about a dog's one sided fantasy about his Master's lover and getting his wish to go all the way with her. Worse is that Silvia truely thought he was the reincarnated Apollonius, real troll worthy that she ended up losing Apollo thinking he was the man she was destined to be with. Instead said dog, thought dogs were loyal, jacked his Master's own promise and made it his own while poor Silvia died in ignorance over this whole affair and truely believed she got with her destined lover and would meet him again and not some... Dog.
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