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Old 2012-06-05, 17:38   Link #1701
GreyZone
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I still wonder about R07, saying that if you try hard enough you find the truth (and similar comments). Were those about the Gameboards or about R-Prime? That is a BIG difference after all. But I am not very sure about that.
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Old 2012-06-05, 17:48   Link #1702
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
I still wonder about R07, saying that if you try hard enough you find the truth (and similar comments). Were those about the Gameboards or about R-Prime? That is a BIG difference after all. But I am not very sure about that.
If they're about the Gameboard... well I guess he's right. If they're about Prime I think the truth he means might not be the TRUTH but just a theory we accepted as the truth... sort of like Ange who apparently refused the truth's of Eva's diary and found her own truth. Which, luckily for her was true (Battler was still alive after all), but actually might have been falze or she might have never discovered it was true (let's assume Battler never recovered his memory).

This gives to the words 'finding the truth' a rather different meaning from the one many of us would expect. Actually in this prospective the truth seems more like something philosophical... like chosing if God exists or not. A personal truth opposed to the TRUTH... and while I've nothing against personal truths well, honestly I would have preferred if Umineko had handed us THE TRUTH.

But that's just me.
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Old 2012-06-05, 19:24   Link #1703
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So I'm not saying the TRUTH of Rokkenjima is meaningless, just that, if it couldn't be proved it is the TRUTH, it's on the same level as saying everything was caused by an accidental explosion.
There's a huge difference if three people make the same story and it's collaborated by data such as from Maria's diary and the police reports and whatnot. Just sayin'.

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I still wonder about R07, saying that if you try hard enough you find the truth (and similar comments). Were those about the Gameboards or about R-Prime? That is a BIG difference after all. But I am not very sure about that.
He's never specified, and kind of goes back and forth about it in the same breath. He never once makes a verbal distinction between the gameboards and Prime, only speaking about 'the truth'. If we misinterpreted his intentions, it's completely an inarguably 100% his fault.
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Old 2012-06-06, 09:02   Link #1704
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I don't think he's ever officially committed to the idea of an existence of a "Prime" universe. I don't know what the Japanese fanbase even calls such a thing, if they even have a term for it, but I'm sure they're aware of the general idea.

But as the author, he hasn't to my knowledge gone so far as to actually suggest there is a "real world" at all. Oh, he's shown Ikuko and stuff, but he hasn't entirely gotten in bed with the idea that she lives in a Prime universe and that the Ikuko he's shown us is Ikuko-Prime to begin with. Hence my joke theory that everything is in Meta-Touya's mind, Ikuko has been Featherine the whole time, and Rokkenjima and everything associated with it didn't exist until Touya started inventing it under Featherine's direction.
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Old 2012-06-06, 09:18   Link #1705
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Originally Posted by Answer of the Golden Witch
[...]
K I think there is about the same amount of people saying „I want to know the truth of the gameboard“, as there are those asking „What is the truth of the real world“. After EP7 had already revealed so much of the truth, many might have expected EP8 to step even further into the real world, and they were quite surprised when it took this, might I even call it ambiguous direction of locking up the catbox.

R Because I slightly started giving an objective view in EP7, there might have been many expecting more of it. But I thought I gave out enough pieces by then to start an interpretation. I really thought that I had given an excessive amount of pieces. Even now when saying „there has been an excess of pieces“, I don’t want to go out and blurt out some kind of answer and forcing it onto you. I might have said it during interviews again and again, I absolutely never wanted to do a story where you could just fill in a solution via copy and paste.

K You said that many times after we had our discussion after the main arcs.

R Because this is the internet-age, somebody could just upload a clear screenshot, or if not that just copy and paste the answer all over the place, is what I thought. People seeing that would just say „Is that so?!“ and dismiss the whole story with that, and that wouldn’t be fun at all. That’s why I created a way to reveal everything in a way that could not be copied and pasted. To those who think about it clearly, it all becomes clear as daylight. I would like it to become a work for which you can say that again and again even after some years have passed. But for those who expected there to be a clear answer at the end, it might have been quite a surprise ending. But for me it had already been decided from the start that there would be an ending like this.
[...]
Hmm..... His answer was very... abstract.


So he said we should have been able to "start an interpretation" by EP7.... which mean we could find the answer by completly disregarding EP8, if I understood that right.

Well there was forshadowing about Battler's survival in EP6 about Ange saying "I thought Tohya is a young man"...


So to get the facts together, we know for certain about Prime:

-Eva and Battler survived (depending on your opinion, Yasu could have too)
-Eva was found in Kuwadorian
-Eva claimed the explosion was an accident
-Eva had the head's ring.
-The "first two stories", probably Legend and Turn, were found as message bottles
-Banquet was definitly written by the Hachijos, it was implied that Alliance and End were too
-It's possible Dawn was written by them as well
-It is not sure, if Requiem and/or Twilight even exist in the prime world
-Ange "disappeard" shortly after Eva's death
-Ikuko claimed she would reveal the truth, but then "decided against it", in the last moment (needs EP8)
-It isn't sure whether the book of one truth really exists or not (needs EP8)
-It is not known to the public, that Tohya is in fact Battler

Well i guess that's about it for information on prime

Last edited by GreyZone; 2012-06-06 at 09:53.
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Old 2012-06-06, 10:19   Link #1706
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Is the thing about Maria's jaw being partially found true to Prime? What about the various people Ange met in Episode 4, like Nanjo's son and Kumasawa's son (And how they received money)?
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Old 2012-06-06, 10:39   Link #1707
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
-Eva claimed the explosion was an accident
Did she?
All we know is that she never wanted to say what happened on those two days. We don't know if she made any kind of statement at all about the "incident".
I think, however, that is moderately safe to assume the official media reported it as an incident and not as a crime, due to the fact that Nanjo jr said that only irresponsible magazines claim it was a crime and Okonogi saying that he'd get in trouble if he called it a crime.


There are other informations that might be useful:

-The maker of the head's ring confirmed its authenticity
-Beatrice's portrait was commissioned to an artist and he still has the picture he used as a reference.
-there are witnesses who heard Kinzo claiming there was a bomb in Rokkenjima that would explode at midnight
-The Rokkenjima incident happened at midnight, and it is suggested that it happened exactly at midnight.
-It can be inferred that the explosion destroyed a big chunk of the island including the port, the Mansion and any nearby building.
-practically no discernible remain was left to identify the corpses with the sole exception of Maria's jaw.
-Kawabata's testimony supports the claim that a woman lived in Kuwadorian until about 1967 (not certain if this is common knowledge)
-Rokkenjima was originally a secret military base and the submarine port still exists (not certain if this is common knowledge)
-several letters were sent the day before of the family meeting in a way that they would end to the relatives of the victims. The letters included keys and code to access a big amount of money (not common knowledge)
-The handwriting of the messages is the same found in Maria's diary writing as "Beatrice" (not common knowledge)


We have absolutely no way to tell with certainty that these informations are real since some were acquired from imcompatible scenarios.
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Old 2012-06-06, 10:48   Link #1708
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Well I tried to only take it out of the narration of EP3TP/"???" (or beginning EP4, not sure which it was) and of EP8"???".

Ange's story in EP4 is probably fictional, if we believe the magic ending, so information from it may be wrong. On the other hand if it was just 1 big illusion, there would be no point to add it (chekovs gun).

But I think the points you state are valid.

About Eva claiming it was an accident.... that was because people started saying it here yesterday and i just accepted that. But now that you mention it, yes, I cannot remember that anyone in the story said that "she claimed it was an accident".
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Old 2012-06-06, 17:35   Link #1709
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Originally Posted by Thunder Book View Post
Is the thing about Maria's jaw being partially found true to Prime? What about the various people Ange met in Episode 4, like Nanjo's son and Kumasawa's son (And how they received money)?
My personal inclination is that though Ange probably didn't REALLY have her EP4 misadventure. But as per Ryukishi's intention to share "information from outside the gameboards", what she found was probably true, including the letter money, the Sakutarou's, and sure-why-not, the lol-Kasumi murder potential.
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Old 2012-06-06, 17:59   Link #1710
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Remember that the first time Ange asked Eva, she answered "I cannot tell you that", while she later just stated that she couldn't remember. Also, Kyrie and Rudolf thanks Eva in the Halloween party for not telling Ange the truth.
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Old 2012-06-06, 19:44   Link #1711
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
My personal inclination is that though Ange probably didn't REALLY have her EP4 misadventure. But as per Ryukishi's intention to share "information from outside the gameboards", what she found was probably true, including the letter money, the Sakutarou's, and sure-why-not, the lol-Kasumi murder potential.
I have the same opinion, even if it didn't happen in the "true ending", all that happened in EP4 also happened in the "trick ending" which mean that as one of the possible future it's as real as the other.

However, as I said, you can't be sure of anything in Umineko. Ryuukishi made things even more complicated with the Ange in EP6, where we are shown a 1998 that doesn't fit with the EP8 endings.
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Old 2012-06-07, 11:49   Link #1712
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[QUOTE=AuraTwilight;4193905]Hiding the truth is evil.
I counter, revealing the truth can be just as destructive.
It is a matter of how truth is handled and Umineko never made the point "knowing the truth is bad" it simply went for "there are truths that are to delicate to be revealed without care".
If Ange actually revealed the whole truth then everything would go to hell. Captain Kawabata would be arrested for or at last accused of aiding Kinz˘ in keeping his daughter hostage and without proper education.
The money given to the families and the Ushiromiya fortune would probably be confiscated as it was gained from illegal sources (stolen gold).
The Nanj˘ clinic would probably go out of business when it was revealed that the father of the current chief of medicine and former chief of medicine was aiding Kinzo during the incestuous birth of his daughter and concealing said daughters death.
Heck, Nanjo's son, Kumasawa's son...even Ange could likely be arrested for not notifying the police about the mysterious cash in the bank vaults they received keys for.
etc.

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God fucking dammit, none of you give a shit about any of these people, do you? I would hate for these apologists to actually give their opinions on real-world tragedies.
Do you really think that every real life tragedy is ever fully revealed to us in all details? Maybe the English government did for example conceal the identity of Jack the Ripper to keep a political scandal from happening.
Is it just to do that? No, but it is understandable under the given circumstances.

And the problem is that the story makes it very likely to assume that negative consequences would result from revealing the truth. It is rather that making the truth seemingly unreachable, like Ikuko did in the end, was the only chance to actually kill the buzz around the tragedy. She killed her own fame and therefore the likelihood of any Witch Hunter to be right...so she killed the movement.

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I have the same opinion, even if it didn't happen in the "true ending", all that happened in EP4 also happened in the "trick ending" which mean that as one of the possible future it's as real as the other.
At least it has a potential of being true. Again it's all about probability and how likely an event can happen. The likelihood of the events of EP4 happening was probably upped by about 200% and Kasumi made 500% more vile than she actually was...but it was possible. That's what all Umineko is about, considering the probability of an event and working from there.
Only a world where everybody else is dead is a secure world...that is the way Ange lives in the trick ending.
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Old 2012-06-07, 12:13   Link #1713
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Only a world where everybody else is dead is a secure world...that is the way Ange lives in the trick ending.
That's quite a shortsighted idea unless you have the power to kill everyone instantly. A world where you kill people at random is a lot less secure than a world where you respect the rules.
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Old 2012-06-07, 12:35   Link #1714
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I counter, revealing the truth can be just as destructive.
It is a matter of how truth is handled and Umineko never made the point "knowing the truth is bad" it simply went for "there are truths that are to delicate to be revealed without care".
If Ange actually revealed the whole truth then everything would go to hell. Captain Kawabata would be arrested for or at last accused of aiding Kinz˘ in keeping his daughter hostage and without proper education.
The money given to the families and the Ushiromiya fortune would probably be confiscated as it was gained from illegal sources (stolen gold).
The Nanj˘ clinic would probably go out of business when it was revealed that the father of the current chief of medicine and former chief of medicine was aiding Kinzo during the incestuous birth of his daughter and concealing said daughters death.
Heck, Nanjo's son, Kumasawa's son...even Ange could likely be arrested for not notifying the police about the mysterious cash in the bank vaults they received keys for.
etc.
Have you considered that all of those things are things which perhaps ought to happen? If true, most of what you said is probably right: Kawabata assisted in kidnapping, Kinzo was a thief, Nanjo was a bad doctor, and Nanjo and Kumasawa's sons are concealing evidence from police. If that is indeed the truth, is it suddenly wrong for them to face the just consequences of their immoral actions? Is it wrong that the Ushiromiya fortune, which was built on murder and fraud, be reduced to what it always was: Nothing?

Nobody said (or nobody should be saying) that the truth cannot be harmful. Indeed, a premise of the whole "stop hiding the truth from Ange" thing is that there's little question it probably will be harmful, and it is harmful, but the truth is better in the end because truth is what truth is and once it is known it doesn't go back.

Uncertainty is more harmful than truth, but even if it were not, truth is morally superior to uncertainty and thus the default is that it needs to be known and it needs to be revealed.

You seem to be taking a consequentialist view that "if hiding one unpleasant truth minimizes the harm to others, we should accept the concealment or at least agree that it should be breached with care." I flatly reject this. I believe that such a decision is one which we cannot universalize because we lack the faculties necessary to determine when it may be permissible, and that in general truth causes no harm to the innocent.

I grant that truth can cause harm to Ange, but I would argue that's a result of prior moral failings on behalf of individuals and not because "the truth is painful." The truth is painful because someone (presumably) acted immorally. Though it may cause distress to her or to other individuals to learn that other people behaved immorally, it is ultimately better to know that some individuals were moral and others were immoral than to suspect that some or all individuals were immoral without sufficient reason (as, after all, we do not want to universalize the notion that anyone whose actions we don't know about should be thought of as having acted immorally). How someone should react to that information is their own decision. Ange chooses to be hurt by the truth, it doesn't hurt her. Revealing the truth is good.

The only person who fails morally but acts with good intentions is Eva, so I'm inclined so say she was wrong but forgivably so, because she believed (wrongly) that she had a duty to Ange which was higher than her duty to truth.
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Old 2012-06-07, 13:52   Link #1715
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Quote:
I counter, revealing the truth can be just as destructive.
It is a matter of how truth is handled and Umineko never made the point "knowing the truth is bad" it simply went for "there are truths that are to delicate to be revealed without care".
If Ange actually revealed the whole truth then everything would go to hell. Captain Kawabata would be arrested for or at last accused of aiding Kinz˘ in keeping his daughter hostage and without proper education.
The money given to the families and the Ushiromiya fortune would probably be confiscated as it was gained from illegal sources (stolen gold).
The Nanj˘ clinic would probably go out of business when it was revealed that the father of the current chief of medicine and former chief of medicine was aiding Kinzo during the incestuous birth of his daughter and concealing said daughters death.
Heck, Nanjo's son, Kumasawa's son...even Ange could likely be arrested for not notifying the police about the mysterious cash in the bank vaults they received keys for.
etc.
Of all of those, only the possibility of Kawabata being arrested and the money in the vaults being confiscated is even remotely likely. If Nanjo's business didn't go under from all the bad publicity from speculating, I doubt the confirmation would make things any worse. And the Japanese Justice Department wouldn't arrest people like Ange or Nanjo's son because they didn't know where that money came from. Ange's inheritance also wouldn't be confiscated because it's all technically Eva's hard-earned money.

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Do you really think that every real life tragedy is ever fully revealed to us in all details? Maybe the English government did for example conceal the identity of Jack the Ripper to keep a political scandal from happening.
Is it just to do that? No, but it is understandable under the given circumstances.
It's also fucking wrong. Is that supposed to make me feel better? Are you now applying apologetics to the English government inadvertently protecting a serial killer?

Quote:
And the problem is that the story makes it very likely to assume that negative consequences would result from revealing the truth. It is rather that making the truth seemingly unreachable, like Ikuko did in the end, was the only chance to actually kill the buzz around the tragedy. She killed her own fame and therefore the likelihood of any Witch Hunter to be right...so she killed the movement.
But how did that work, exactly? Ikuko doesn't reveal the truth and is discredited as being valid so....the speculations and the entire hobby stops? She's not the only Forgery writer. What the hell?

Ryukishi just wanted to have his cake and eat it too and decided to hand wave the issue without putting any thought into it.

Quote:
At least it has a potential of being true. Again it's all about probability and how likely an event can happen. The likelihood of the events of EP4 happening was probably upped by about 200% and Kasumi made 500% more vile than she actually was...but it was possible. That's what all Umineko is about, considering the probability of an event and working from there.
Only a world where everybody else is dead is a secure world...that is the way Ange lives in the trick ending.
Secure doesn't mean happy.

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The only person who fails morally but acts with good intentions is Eva, so I'm inclined so say she was wrong but forgivably so, because she believed (wrongly) that she had a duty to Ange which was higher than her duty to truth.
And to add onto this, Eva's decision destroyed her entire life and her relationship with Ange. They probably could've become a very loving and happy family if they were able to put this Rokkenjima mess behind them. Eva had a god-awful life and after the Incident, she really only had herself to blame. The truth could've set her, Ange, and their dead family members free.
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Old 2012-06-07, 14:43   Link #1716
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Even if it hadn't, it's better to be right than to be respected. Telling Ange the truth may have made their relationship better, and may have made it worse. But it's better she tells her the truth from a position of compassion than to allow people to use truth (or the appearance of truth) as a weapon against Ange psychologically... which is exactly what people like Bernkastel do.

Say the worst case was true and Rudolf and Kyrie did kill everybody. That's bad. But if Ange knows it, "WHAT IF YOUR PARENTS DID IT!?" stops being a weapon that can stab at her heart. She'll have to accept that truth and decide what to do about it. One way or another, wielding truth or speculation with ill intentions ceases to have value once the actual truth is known. It'd just be better if someone who cared told her in a manner that she could gradually come to understand and appreciate, rather than hearing it from people who wish her ill. She'd be able to say to those people "I know. So what?" If anything that's where Eva dropped the ball.
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Old 2012-06-07, 15:30   Link #1717
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Exactly. That's why the truth has to be released publically. The truth is neutral, but speculation can be malicious. Ange can COPE with the Truth; Yukari's existence proves that. She can't cope with the unknown.


And Ange isn't unique. A shitload of other people who should be just as important as Ange are neglected because they're not on-screen. Will Gohda's mother ever be able to move on? Must Nanjo's son forever wonder if his father was a murderer or a crook?

Someone brought up that Nanjo's clinic could've been shut down if the Truth came out, but what about the companies that were probably shut down because the truth didn't come out, like Rosa's fashion company? More people worked for her firm than Nanjo's fucking one-man doctor clinic. If we're going to weigh things by purely consequentialist measures, than way more people are put in unemployment than if the truth did come out.
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Old 2012-06-07, 16:47   Link #1718
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Say the worst case was true and Rudolf and Kyrie did kill everybody. That's bad. But if Ange knows it, "WHAT IF YOUR PARENTS DID IT!?" stops being a weapon that can stab at her heart. She'll have to accept that truth and decide what to do about it. One way or another, wielding truth or speculation with ill intentions ceases to have value once the actual truth is known. It'd just be better if someone who cared told her in a manner that she could gradually come to understand and appreciate, rather than hearing it from people who wish her ill. She'd be able to say to those people "I know. So what?" If anything that's where Eva dropped the ball.
Though I agree with that, it would be a little hard to explain that to a six year old child, and would end up making more harm than good. The right thing would probably be to tell her when she was older, but their relationship had already become strained by then.

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Exactly. That's why the truth has to be released publically. The truth is neutral, but speculation can be malicious.
That is the public's fault for speculating all sorts of things for an incident that does not concern them in the slightest little bit! Most people's interest in Rokenjima's incident was plainly curiosity, so why would Eva have to render accounts to all those people who labelled her as a criminal just out of plane curiosity?

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Ange can COPE with the Truth; Yukari's existence proves that. She can't cope with the unknown.
Solid as this argument may be, there are all sorts of over-protective parents, Eva was just one of them.

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And Ange isn't unique. A shitload of other people who should be just as important as Ange are neglected because they're not on-screen. Will Gohda's mother ever be able to move on? Must Nanjo's son forever wonder if his father was a murderer or a crook?
Well, to be perfectly fair she lost her entire family and was deprived of her childhood (I doubt anyone could have a proper one after such an incident).

Though, of course, it is not possible or ethic to put measures in the pain of people. I guess all those questions are just a different story. Shit like that often happens when you add characters who are only to appear for one scene or so.

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That's quite a shortsighted idea unless you have the power to kill everyone instantly. A world where you kill people at random is a lot less secure than a world where you respect the rules.
I think the point there was that Ange clings onto seeking the one truth about everything so much that she is incapable of trusting any words that aren't red, meaning, she cannot love, since there is absolutely no way to prove such a thing by human means.
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Old 2012-06-07, 17:06   Link #1719
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...I'm sorry to barge "again" like that, but at this point, would it be preferable to leave people their own take of the "meaning of the end"?
Frankly, the polarizing discussion about it for a year and half plainly demonstrates it is way more a matter of opinion and perspective than really "one single definition" of it, a bit similar to the truth to put it blunty, and that's probably what Ryukishi tried to do, as he does leave things to people interpretation.

Past that, it is absolutely going nowhere, and whilst I do encourage discussions about X or Y stuff and debates, this peculiar subject is just tiring, borderline sterile (this is true for both sides). So, while I understand the ending is a huge chunk of Episode 8, it is just not cutting it on the long run.
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Old 2012-06-07, 18:35   Link #1720
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That is the public's fault for speculating all sorts of things for an incident that does not concern them in the slightest little bit! Most people's interest in Rokenjima's incident was plainly curiosity, so why would Eva have to render accounts to all those people who labelled her as a criminal just out of plane curiosity?
Well, they pretty much ruined Ange's life and emotional health. She could've stopped all that with a simple public statement.

Quote:
Solid as this argument may be, there are all sorts of over-protective parents, Eva was just one of them.
You're right, but Ryukishi treats Eva's decision as the morally correct path. Which is entirely different. If Eva, BATTLER, Beatrice, and all those guys were shown to be mistaken, and Ikuko DIDN'T decide to keep her mouth shut...or if she did and a neutral narrator criticized her for it atleast...

Quote:
Well, to be perfectly fair she lost her entire family and was deprived of her childhood (I doubt anyone could have a proper one after such an incident).

Though, of course, it is not possible or ethic to put measures in the pain of people. I guess all those questions are just a different story. Shit like that often happens when you add characters who are only to appear for one scene or so.
I just feel like it's sort of messed up when people treat things like Ange's suffering is all that matters, and that she should be the only one who gets to decide if she learns the truth and shares it with other people.

It's precisely because you can't put a measure on people's pain that it's not right to give her priority like that.

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I think the point there was that Ange clings onto seeking the one truth about everything so much that she is incapable of trusting any words that aren't red, meaning, she cannot love, since there is absolutely no way to prove such a thing by human means.
She got like that after years of being denied the truth by the people who were supposed to be her loved ones, INCLUDING her brother in EP8. I don't think we can blame her, and it's certainly not accurate to say she can't love because of it.

This is another thing that sort of bugs me. Ryukishi keeps equating 'love' to something like 'faith', and that's just messed up.
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When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
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