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Old 2012-06-07, 17:09   Link #21821
Dextro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sneaker View Post
Germany's export to Greece is a mere 5 Billion Euro annually. If you subtract the EU subventions from the profits of the German industry there won't be much left. That's nothing compared to its >1 Trillion total exports, definitely not worth guaranteeing hundreds of Billions of Euro with little chance of getting them back (the reason you guys have to pay so much interests.)
How much of that Trillion is within the EU? I'm not sure but I'm betting it's a lot (and I'm not just talking about Greece here).

Also:

Quote:
Originally Posted by sneaker View Post
Wait, what?
Germany subsidizing other countries' agriculture with German taxpayer money is to destroy their agriculture? And destroyed agriculture means they buy more German cars?
It was mostly the French that one actually and I'm telling you the truth! The European Union PAID for years to farmers here in Portugal so that they would NOT plant their soil or so that they would completely alter their crops (sometimes changing the crop after just a year or two). Both things happened I'm telling you and every year we have to throw away milk because we produce above the quota. Why the hell is there a quota I have no bloody idea but the fact is that the EU has been making us stop producing. It's that bloody mental!

And that money? It went into cars. Yeah, that's our fault and I facepalm hard at it every time I see another bloody whiner complain that they just took away his BMW.

The Common Agricultural Policy has been instrumental in wrecking havoc with my countries economy for years now and the major beneficiaries of that have been France and Spain whose produce has replaced locally sourced alternatives at the stores for years now.

I won't get into the fishing side of the equation though, that's all on us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sneaker View Post
Sorry, but this is not true. Germany has no power in the ECB. And the ECB is doing lots of bonds bying to save the PIIGS. Germany didn't want that, but the PIIGS and France have the power in the ECB. It is no coincidence that an Italian got made president.
This is all while the Euro/ECB statues explicitly forbid such measures. Maastricht clearly ruled that no Euro country shall ever bail out another.
And that's exactly the problem! If no Euro country will help another then the currency will ultimately fail because you are telling countries to give up a bit of their sovereignty without any net to fall back on!

Germany delayed the ECB moves for as long as it could until the French got scared and pulled their cards to do what you just said. Has it helped? Of course not because the solution is to discredit the rating agencies, not feed them.
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Old 2012-06-07, 17:27   Link #21822
sneaker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dextro View Post
It was mostly the French that one actually and I'm telling you the truth! The European Union PAID for years to farmers here in Portugal so that they would NOT plant their soil or so that they would completely alter their crops (sometimes changing the crop after just a year or two). Both things happened I'm telling you and every year we have to throw away milk because we produce above the quota. Why the hell is there a quota I have no bloody idea but the fact is that the EU has been making us stop producing. It's that bloody mental!

And that money? It went into cars. Yeah, that's our fault and I facepalm hard at it every time I see another bloody whiner complain that they just took away his BMW.

The Common Agricultural Policy has been instrumental in wrecking havoc with my countries economy for years now and the major beneficiaries of that have been France and Spain whose produce has replaced locally sourced alternatives at the stores for years now.

I won't get into the fishing side of the equation though, that's all on us.
Yes, but that's the same everywhere. We have the same "milk quota" in Germany, too. The system is extremely favorable of France (they were net receivers until Eastern European extension of the EU, i.e. for over 40 years).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dextro View Post
And that's exactly the problem! If no Euro country will help another then the currency will ultimately fail because you are telling countries to give up a bit of their sovereignty without any net to fall back on!
I'm not sure if that is true. California was basically bankrupt and that didn't destroy the US dollar. And unlike Greece, California is the most populated entity of the currency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dextro View Post
Germany delayed the ECB moves for as long as it could until the French got scared and pulled their cards to do what you just said. Has it helped? Of course not because the solution is to discredit the rating agencies, not feed them.
If it were for me, there would be no payments. But we'll see if and how everything works out. I cannot say I approve of the current plans, nor do I see them working out. Although Germany has been miraculously unaffected by the crisis until now. But as soon as the guarantees turn into debt, it's all over. Though I don't see anyone appreciating it.
Most Germans didn't want the Euro in the first place, but all major parties were in favor of it and there really wasn't any "EU-critic" party in Germany at all. And they don't allow plebiscites of course.
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Old 2012-06-07, 18:34   Link #21823
Bri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sneaker View Post
I'm not sure if that is true. California was basically bankrupt and that didn't destroy the US dollar. And unlike Greece, California is the most populated entity of the currency.
That's the tragedy of the EU crisis. A Greek sovereign debt default should not affected any other country if not for a design flaw in European Monetary Union. American financial institutions, including those in California, are monitored by Federal Reserve System not national authorities. While it suffers from poor public finances and has a far larger share of US GDP, California can not contaminate the US financial system the way Greece did.

In the Euro-zone, financial institutions fall under the supervision of national central banks. Had Greek bank deposits been guaranteed by the ECB like the FDIC does in the US, Greek banks would not have become insolvent due to capital flight and an insolvent government. Only investors in Greek sovereign debt would have taken a loss, Greek government would have been forced to cut spending and that would be end of story.
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Old 2012-06-07, 20:24   Link #21824
killer3000ad
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South Korea surrenders to creationist demands
Quote:
A petition to remove references to evolution from high-school textbooks claimed victory last month after the Ministry of Education, Science and Technology (MEST) revealed that many of the publishers would produce revised editions that exclude examples of the evolution of the horse or of avian ancestor Archaeopteryx. The move has alarmed biologists, who say that they were not consulted. “The ministry just sent the petition out to the publishing companies and let them judge,” says Dayk Jang, an evolutionary scientist at Seoul National University.

The campaign was led by the Society for Textbook Revise (STR), which aims to delete the “error” of evolution from textbooks to “correct” students’ views of the world, according to the society’s website. The society says that its members include professors of biology and high-school science teachers.

The STR is also campaigning to remove content about “the evolution of humans” and “the adaptation of finch beaks based on habitat and mode of sustenance”, a reference to one of the most famous observations in Charles Darwin’s On the Origin of Species.
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Old 2012-06-07, 21:42   Link #21825
Vexx
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Which just goes to show blind stupidity knows no barrier to race, creed, or hairstyle.
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Old 2012-06-07, 21:49   Link #21826
Urzu 7
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You know what is crazier than putting the creationist view in textbooks? People who want to modify the Bible because "it is too liberal". It is like, not even the word of God is good enough for some conservatives. For some of them, I swear, if they meet God in Heaven and God ends up being more compassionate to non-believers and LGBT people than they thought, they'd cry foul and label him an imposter.
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Old 2012-06-07, 22:24   Link #21827
MeoTwister5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
You know what is crazier than putting the creationist view in textbooks? People who want to modify the Bible because "it is too liberal". It is like, not even the word of God is good enough for some conservatives. For some of them, I swear, if they meet God in Heaven and God ends up being more compassionate to non-believers and LGBT people than they thought, they'd cry foul and label him an imposter.
Similar, of course, to what they did to Jesus.
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Old 2012-06-07, 22:35   Link #21828
mangamuscle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Similar, of course, to what they did to Jesus.
Neo-cons know no Jesus, they do worship a
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Old 2012-06-07, 23:25   Link #21829
MeoTwister5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mangamuscle View Post
Neo-cons know no Jesus, they do worship a
Actually more like
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Old 2012-06-08, 00:28   Link #21830
Urzu 7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Similar, of course, to what they did to Jesus.
That is a very good point. I didn't think of that. You took what I was getting at and took it a step further.

It is crazy. Some Christians are so dedicated to Christ, but they forget what he is all about. When you are belligerent (if not physically, then in your attitudes and regards towards those you don't favor), ill hearted, judgmental, and hateful, you are not being the Christian you should be. They can be pious and try to follow all the rules and guidelines, but that doesn't mean too much without the love. Only giving it to the people you personally like doesn't cut it. There is even Bible verses that say even the corrupt can do that.
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Old 2012-06-08, 01:06   Link #21831
wontaek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killer3000ad View Post
This is what happens when you have Christian right in control of Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branch of the Government.

How this came about was rather cunning. Much of Korean Middle and High school Biology text books, especially the part about evolution , has received little revision for almost 30+ years thus was lacking in latest evidence for evolution while having many historical missteps presented as if they are what is accepted by main stream scientists. The creationist pointed fingers at errors that other scientists also have recognized the need to revise, and then used that to discredit the evolution.

The current South Korean ruling party has long been engaged in attempts to distorting the historical and scientific facts.

See following news articles

‘Ex-head of truth commission abused authority to ban book‘

Lee administration is trying to ‘bury all the new history we have learned’: Bruce Cumings

( see also : http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/engli...al/324070.html )

History distorters


Media freedoms


SOUTH KOREA: Corruption Row to Undercut Reshuffle Effect
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Old 2012-06-08, 01:27   Link #21832
Zakoo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dextro View Post
How much of that Trillion is within the EU? I'm not sure but I'm betting it's a lot (and I'm not just talking about Greece here).
60% of trade surplus came from EU and 80% from Europe alone.

About agriculture, we are in the same problem, our farmers are all in heavy debt, and there has been a massive "milk throw" there's some years.
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Old 2012-06-08, 02:06   Link #21833
Malkuth
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The complaints (rightful IMHO) about agriculture are not limited to Portugal or France but all across EU, but I have never seen all those complaining within their countries joining their voices in their common demands against their national policies reflected by the EU ones that favour imports outside the union in order to keep down the prices, control inflation, and help investment.

The sovereign debt in Greece is as much the responsibility of the ruling parties that borrowed in order to create infrastructure provided by mainly french and german companies, as well as is a responsibility of the borrowers that never calculated the risk and trusted those rating houses that suddenly discovered two years ago that their prediction had no relationship to reality. And none of these "investors" of course will loose their money, because the ECB (and by extend all european people) will pay them.

Similar is the problem in Spain, where the central government covered for years the housing bubble and the local government debt to the same interests that destroyed Greece.

Now all these belong to history, interesting to understand, but will solve absolutely none of our problems. Unfortunately though, the political leaders (both inside and outside the EU) still have not provided a viable solution to the crisis. Breaking the euro (which was the objective of Merkozy+UK) will just plunge the whole continent to pre-Marshall plan quality of life.
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Old 2012-06-08, 04:22   Link #21834
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
You know what is crazier than putting the creationist view in textbooks? People who want to modify the Bible because "it is too liberal". It is like, not even the word of God is good enough for some conservatives. For some of them, I swear, if they meet God in Heaven and God ends up being more compassionate to non-believers and LGBT people than they thought, they'd cry foul and label him an imposter.
It wouldn't be the first time the bible's been modified to promote political ideology. It certainly won't be the last time someone tries it either.
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Old 2012-06-08, 04:50   Link #21835
ganbaru
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Ex-Fleetwood Mac member Bob Welch dead
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8561E720120608
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Old 2012-06-08, 06:05   Link #21836
MeoTwister5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
That is a very good point. I didn't think of that. You took what I was getting at and took it a step further.

It is crazy. Some Christians are so dedicated to Christ, but they forget what he is all about. When you are belligerent (if not physically, then in your attitudes and regards towards those you don't favor), ill hearted, judgmental, and hateful, you are not being the Christian you should be. They can be pious and try to follow all the rules and guidelines, but that doesn't mean too much without the love. Only giving it to the people you personally like doesn't cut it. There is even Bible verses that say even the corrupt can do that.
The people who claim to follow Him the most are the ones who understand him the least. It's an irony Christianity hasn't been free of since it's conception.
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Old 2012-06-08, 09:38   Link #21837
SaintessHeart
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Actually, it is quite astonishing that 9gag did a efficient job at illustrating the European bailout than Visual Economics :

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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2012-06-08, 10:05   Link #21838
Paranoid Android
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Except they skipped out the part about capitalism xP Somebody's always gonna horde and make more money out of money.
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Old 2012-06-08, 10:27   Link #21839
GDB
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If that's actually how the bailout worked, then it seems very efficient actually. The problem is, as Paranoid said above, some horder got left out of the equation.
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Old 2012-06-08, 10:37   Link #21840
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
If that's actually how the bailout worked, then it seems very efficient actually. The problem is, as Paranoid said above, some horder got left out of the equation.
Another thing that is left out of the equation is the cost of borrowing money, or rather, interest rates.

Interest rates has its pros, and that is to force people to spend within their means; something which the comic had indirectly illustrated starting from the supplier. Lower interest rates means stark inflation, and another stimulus will result in greater debt.

It would be interesting if the supplier uses this money to acquire more land to get more hogs and feed; he would be drinking martinis and champagnes instead of beer.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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