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View Poll Results: Fate/Zero - Episode 21 Rating
Perfect 10 51 48.11%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 37 34.91%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 11 10.38%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 4.72%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.94%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 0.94%
Voters: 106. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-05-31, 05:47   Link #261
LunarMoon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaos_alfa View Post
Strange Ufotable would change it this much.
That's because you weren't actually supposed to know that until the end of the novel. That's a spoiler.
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Old 2012-05-31, 05:59   Link #262
chaos_alfa
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Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post
That's because you weren't actually supposed to know that until the end of the novel. That's a spoiler.
I thought it was a light novel episode spoiler rather than an ending light novel spoiler -_-

Last edited by chaos_alfa; 2012-05-31 at 06:51.
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Old 2012-05-31, 09:59   Link #263
ChainLegacy
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Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
All I wanted to say is that being selfless is just as bad as being selfish, maybe worse.

I'm not saying I admire him, and I'm certainly not looking to him as a good role model. It's quite the opposite actually. Kiritsugu is a monster, arguably even more so than Kirei or Zouken. However, he goes in the opposite extreme, going for a form of "extreme selflessness". He's a cruel deconstruction of the selfless superhero and a good example of what happens when a character is too selfless.

I'm not making moral judgments here, and I'm purposefully sidestepping that line of discussion. Please reconsider your baseless assertions.
Why are they baseless? You've spent pages describing how you dislike Kariya's character for his selfish motivations. So how is it baseless for me to assume you find selflessness preferable? Clearly you don't based on this post, but now you've just made your thoughts even more confusing to me...

So you admire selflessness not from a moral perspective, but instead as a superior trait of one's character? As I see it, either you hate anyone who tries to be a hero (selflessness and selfishness, reasons be damned) as you seem to be saying in this post (?), or you simply admire being true to one's self above all else (which would explain why you find Kirei a better alternative to Kariya). Perhaps it's a false dichotomy on my part, but you present a fairly confusing line of reasoning, at least from my perspective. Maybe it's just a gut feeling on your part and not necessarily tied to any higher thought process/philosophical stance? That's what I'm starting to think...

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Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
I can understand if it were just "right" and "wrong", but "selfish" and "selfless" always struck me as neutral words since they can be objectively defined. Or maybe that's just me speaking as a moral relativist.

Anyway, I avoid morality discussions because it's a quick way for an argument to go nowhere fast, but if anyone wants to pursue the subject, then I would willingly oblige.
I'm not a moral relativist really, but I don't actually believe in morality as a set-in-stone thing either. I think it is an evolved mechanism based on human evolution. That's a subject for another thread. The reason I bring it up is that despite this belief I still have my own set of *personal* morals I try to adhere to - and I can still consider someone to be morally good or admirable based on those. So from my 'personal morality,' I saw Kariya as a tragic hero that I sympathize/somewhat admire, and Kirei as a great villain, but someone I'd find reprehensible as a real person. That's based on my morals, and I assume most people judge how they like others based on their morals as well. Am I wrong? How else can you decide you dislike his selfishness and his attempts to rationalize it? Isn't it against your personal code of morality to do so, thus you find it detestable?

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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
change of subject here

Any predictions on how Kriya will die?

1. in a Blaze of Glory as he give all he can in a fight to the death.

2. like a dog in a ditch/sewer un-notice and un-mourn while his last breath is taking by Berserker.

3. in a patheically delusion state thinking he had/will save Sakura.
After what happened to his character, I'd like him to get a heroic finish. Judging by the general atmosphere of this story and our knowledge of his inevitable demise, I'm not holding my breath...

Last edited by ChainLegacy; 2012-05-31 at 10:09.
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Old 2012-05-31, 10:13   Link #264
Qilin
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Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
Why are they baseless? You've spent pages describing how you dislike Kariya's character for his selfish motivations. So how is it baseless for me to assume you find selflessness preferable? Clearly you don't based on this post, but now you've just made your thoughts even more confusing to me...

So you admire selflessness not from a moral perspective, but instead as a superior trait of one's character? As I see it, either you hate anyone who tries to be a hero (selflessness and selfishness, reasons be damned) as you seem to be saying in this post (?), or you simply admire being true to one's self above all else (which would explain why you find Kirei a better alternative to Kariya). Perhaps it's a false dichotomy on my part, but you present a fairly confusing line of reasoning, at least from my perspective. Maybe it's just a gut feeling on your part and not necessarily tied to any higher thought process/philosophical stance? That's what I'm starting to think...
Hm. I'm going to quote myself one more time. Make sure you read it this time, okay?

Quote:
It's his insistence on rationalizing his selfishness that bothers me. From my perspective, "saving Sakura" is just an excuse he says to himself to make his selfish motivations more palatable.

The rule of moderation is the key here. Extreme selflessness and selfishness should be avoided (arguably), though that's beside the point of this discussion.
Once again, I'm not making moral judgments on anyone's character, be it Kiritsugu, Kirei, or Kariya. All I mentioned is that I dislike Kariya's character and I'm simply giving my reasons why. I have no interest in taking the moral high ground here. Selfish and selfless are neutral-aligned words as far as my arguments go.
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Old 2012-05-31, 10:16   Link #265
ChainLegacy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
Hm. I'm going to quote myself one more time. Make sure you read it this time, okay?


Once again, I'm not making moral judgments on anyone's character, be it Kiritsugu, Kirei, or Kariya. All I mentioned is that I dislike Kariya's character and I'm simply giving my reasons why. I have no interest in taking the moral high ground here.
Stop treating my line of reasoning as some attack on your moral character - I could care less. I'm just fascinated by what I find to be your bizarre character preferences. I thought the character Kariya was written to be sympathetic and for one to pity his plight, since you seem to take the opposite stance I wanted to find your reasons. Like I said in my last post, I do not believe a 'moral high ground' exists. Also, re-read my post, I expanded it a bit. Could you explain how your dislike of his rationalization, is separate from your moral judgments? I do not see how one could separate the two. Like I said, could it just be a gut feeling on your part? What other option is there besides gut preference and moral judgment?
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Old 2012-05-31, 10:45   Link #266
Qilin
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Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
Stop treating my line of reasoning as some attack on your moral character - I could care less. I'm just fascinated by what I find to be your bizarre character preferences. I thought the character Kariya was written to be sympathetic and for one to pity his plight, since you seem to take the opposite stance I wanted to find your reasons. Like I said in my last post, I do not believe a 'moral high ground' exists. Also, re-read my post, I expanded it a bit. Could you explain how your dislike of his rationalization, is separate from your moral judgments? I do not see how one could separate the two.
Okay. Fine. I apologize if I misinterpreted your stance.

I'll make my position here very clear. Pardon me if it seems a bit like a rant.
Spoiler for rant:
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Last edited by Qilin; 2012-05-31 at 11:52.
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Old 2012-06-01, 00:58   Link #267
Guido
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21st War: Knight on Two Wheels

If there is any story far tragic played before, during, and after the Holy Grail War is done, then is the tragic tale of Matou Kariya and Tohsaka Aoi.

From the hints directed in the first episode after Kariya and Aoi met again for so many years the subtleties clearly indicated that Kariya held repressed feelings of love for Aoi.
It's just too overwhelmingly tragic that Kariya was played to fall into Kotomine's gloom banquet, triggering on him getting the fault and being viciously lambasted by Aoi's words.

Spoiler:


Regarding to Matou Zoken and Kotomine's first unrequited meeting...
Spoiler:

Last edited by Guido; 2012-06-01 at 01:22.
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Old 2012-06-01, 05:50   Link #268
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Of course, in Kariya's case, his selfish motivations led to disaster. But had he saved Sakura and done so based on impure motivations, well whatever. Some good came of it, no?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Kariya's initial motivations to save Sakura were... save Sakura, also he was guilt tripped and blamed himself. He acted recklessly moved by that.

Only after his one year of torture, he shattered and became something else which was because he was not sane anymore. After how Urobuchi described the decrepit state of his body (which the anime does not do any justice), anyone would have broken. He went, shall we say, berserker consumed by the darker emotions in his heart as consequence of this agony which was entirely understandable?

This wasn't just someone who suffered a sobstory of purely emotional shock. Let's not kid ourselves. Kariya's body was not functioning properly (it was a lump of dead diseased flesh consumed from the inside and moved by magic of worms), while his brain was not wiring at all (he was not even very coherent anymore and had lapses of falling from reality).

Oh boy what did I miss:

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Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
Maybe inhumane is a bit much, but I think he's a lowly coward who hides his resentment and jealousy under the pretense of heroism. You just have to watch him killing Aoi to see what kind of feelings he's been hiding.
The coward is Aoi. The novel calls her out as coward several times. Kariya is a reckless idiot. Tokiomi is an oblivious idiot, while Aoi is a cowardly idiot. They have other flaws, but those are the ones that led them to disaster.

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Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
However, I am still well convinced that the hatred he expressed towards Tokiomi reflected his genuine feelings, albeit considerably unrestricted. Or am I wrong?
You're misunderstanding Kariya's feelings, IMO. Prior to seeing Sakura raped in the bottom of a worm pit, I don't remember Kariya having any sign of resentment against Tokiomi. He was blaming himself. Only after seeing Sakura, he has the obvious knee-jerk reaction of HOW COULD HE? Isn't it understandable when Aoi told him that was Tokiomi's decision and she tragically couldn't intervene? What a shock.

He festers his hatred after that because he can't literally turn hostile against Zouken. The worms get "excited" and devour him faster if they sense that. So he needs an outlet to focus ins sanity and remain alive and keep going into a painful fight until he dies. That's Tokiomi. Just like Aoi in a moment of grief blamed Kariya irrationally about Sakura's situation; Kariya did the same with her husband (although he did have better reasons to blame him, since Aoi... told him it was his idea?). Except his agony was non-stop. It became an habit. That's how I saw it.

Over the time it passes and anchors as a goal, but go back and read the description of Kariya. The first battle leaves him covered in his own blood. His mind is beginning to slip away. Why do you think Berserker was his partner? It was a parallel of his descend into madness.

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Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
No, Rider was using the full power Gordius Wheel in that confrontation:

By calling the true name, the NP is at full release.
Re-read the chapter where Waver and him talk in the forest. He's unable to use the full potential because he has not prana to back it. It's the same as Gilgamesh doesn't use full power of Ea (with the world tearing apart effect which is in most of his battles), despite invoking the true name.
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Last edited by Thess; 2012-06-01 at 06:18.
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Old 2012-06-01, 07:54   Link #269
Qilin
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
The coward is Aoi. The novel calls her out as coward several times. Kariya is a reckless idiot. Tokiomi is an oblivious idiot, while Aoi is a cowardly idiot. They have other flaws, but those are the ones that led them to disaster.
Oh, yes. Aoi is just as guilty for the inevitable tragedy that happened. But I won't let Kariya off the hook with just that. To be fair, I'm pretty sure he was convinced that he was entering the war for Sakura's sake. I have no doubt that he wished to rid her of the suffering she was experiencing. The only thing is, I believe his motivations go even deeper than what's apparent on the surface.

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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
You're misunderstanding Kariya's feelings, IMO. Prior to seeing Sakura raped in the bottom of a worm pit, I don't remember Kariya having any sign of resentment against Tokiomi. He was blaming himself. Only after seeing Sakura, he has the obvious knee-jerk reaction of HOW COULD HE? Isn't it understandable when Aoi told him that was Tokiomi's decision and she tragically couldn't intervene? What a shock.

He festers his hatred after that because he can't literally turn hostile against Zouken. The worms get "excited" and devour him faster if they sense that. So he needs an outlet to focus ins sanity and remain alive and keep going into a painful fight until he dies. That's Tokiomi. Just like Aoi in a moment of grief blamed Kariya irrationally about Sakura's situation; Kariya did the same with her husband (although he did have better reasons to blame him, since Aoi... told him it was his idea?). Except his agony was non-stop. It became an habit. That's how I saw it.

Over the time it passes and anchors as a goal, but go back and read the description of Kariya. The first battle leaves him covered in his own blood. His mind is beginning to slip away. Why do you think Berserker was his partner? It was a parallel of his descend into madness.
One thing I'm noticing here is that we have varying interpretations of Kariya's "insanity". For you, it means that he is no longer himself, so there's no point in holding him accountable for his actions. But to me, it means that all his hatred, anger, and insecurities are forcefully exposed without all the defense mechanisms that normally keep these feelings in check. As such, even in his "insanity", I am convinced he stayed true to his inner self, at least the more destructive aspects of it. From my perspective, the very existence (and gravity) of these "hidden demons" within him was caused by his refusal to acknowledge his hidden feelings toward Aoi and Tokiomi in the first place.

Another aspect we aren't seeing eye-to-eye with is the nature of Kariya's love for Aoi. Even if he directed all his bitterness towards himself, I believe that, given a chance to redirect it to another target (like Tokiomi for instance), he would do so willingly. Of course, he couldn't direct his resentment towards Tokiomi at first since he's the man that Aoi chose, and doing so would be morally unacceptable (to him). However, after finding out about Tokiomi's fault with Sakura, the bitterness he harbored could then be redirected to a much better target (Tokiomi). At that point, he managed free himself from his self-pity after finding a much more suitable outlet to receive his hate. Of course, this process is mostly unconscious, so he could freely hide this under the pretense of heroism or altruism.

I could probably even extend my position and say that he used the pain and suffering he went through in Zouken's to rationalize his hatred for Tokiomi. I've read several posts arguing that Kariya's hatred for Tokiomi is just a reflection of his hatred for Zouken, but isn't that the same thing? The idea that he needed to concentrate his hatred Tokiomi to retain control of his servant, to me, is just a convenient excuse he tells himself to his hatred more acceptable to his eyes.

So yeah. In short, to me, that anger and resentment he displayed throughout the war was already stored within him long before the war, perhaps in the form of self-pity or self-loathing. He just needed the right outlet to release it.
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Old 2012-06-01, 08:59   Link #270
Thess
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You sound like a Tokiomi fan. It's fine to like that character, but that makes you absolutely venomous to Kariya for some reason. Oh well…

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Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
Oh, yes. Aoi is just as guilty for the inevitable tragedy that happened. But I won't let Kariya off the hook with just that. To be fair, I'm pretty sure he was convinced that he was entering the war for Sakura's sake. I have no doubt that he wished to rid her of the suffering she was experiencing. The only thing is, I believe his motivations go even deeper than what's apparent on the surface.
When did not I say that? I called the three of them idiots, if you noticed. For different reasons each.

Kariya is hardly a coward. He rebelled against Zouken during his youth. Hardly what I call a cowardly action since he's scary. He is, though, extremely reckless and jumps the gun a lot which is how he landed in his hands again. This was his primary mistake and flaw. Which is obviously equally problematic.

He was convinced? I see. The novels are a third person narrative. Therefore, you can say the author himself describes his motives. They were noble prior one year of torment. They were also based on guilt if you want to bring forth the less selfless heroic ones. Even Kirei calls his reason: atonement.

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Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
One thing I'm noticing here is that we have varying interpretations of Kariya's "insanity". For you, it means that he is no longer himself, so there's no point in holding him accountable for his actions. But to me, it means that all his hatred, anger, and insecurities are forcefully exposed without all the defense mechanisms that normally keep these feelings in check. As such, even in his "insanity", I am convinced he stayed true to his inner self, at least the more destructive aspects of it. From my perspective, the very existence (and gravity) of these "hidden demons" within him was caused by his refusal to acknowledge his hidden feelings toward Aoi and Tokiomi in the first place.
There is no denying there are hidden demons everywhere, brought up by an extreme situation (Tokiomi has them too in regards with Sakura, as does Aoi, but I consider them secondary to his main flaws). Nonetheless, Kariya was insane when he strangled Aoi aka he completely lost the touch with the reality. The light novel itself spells aloud his brain isn't functional and how he'd acted if it was (he would have figured out it was a set up, if I recall). This is not really just anger, hatred, and insecurity as in emotional reactions, but physically his brain was not truly wiring it seems. Maybe because… something is eating his internal organs? Moving on…

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
Another aspect we aren't seeing eye-to-eye with is the nature of Kariya's love for Aoi. Even if he directed all his bitterness towards himself, I believe that, given a chance to redirect it to another target (like Tokiomi for instance), he would do so willingly. Of course, he couldn't direct his resentment towards Tokiomi at first since he's the man that Aoi chose, and doing so would be morally unacceptable (to him). However, after finding out about Tokiomi's fault with Sakura, the bitterness he harbored could then be redirected to a much better target (Tokiomi). At that point, he managed free himself from his self-pity after finding a much more suitable outlet to receive his hate. Of course, this process is mostly unconscious, so he could freely hide this under the pretense of heroism or altruism.
He never did it in ten years. Given what chance? You say one thing, but the LN tells another. Once again, the narrative is clear and impartial. When Kariya resents, it is spelled aloud, when he did not (pre-Sakura incident) it does the same. Someone can change opinions after the discovery that the person they entrusted the love of their life sent one of her daughters to be raped by his creepy vampiric relative. Shocking, I know, but it happens.

Tokiomi is just easy to hate from an outsider's POV: aloof, arrogant, even tells Kariya he wouldn't mind if his daughters battled to death when he asks. Because all his reasons are incomprehensible to a normal person like Kariya tries to be. Of course he hated him after and blamed him for everything, even his own state I think which was born from the hopeless bitterness of his circumstances (and Sakura's). Nothing heroic there, but understandable.

When he gave into bitterness, jealousy and hatred began to spread because he began to consider the what if scenarios.

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Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
I could probably even extend my position and say that he used the pain and suffering he went through in Zouken's to rationalize his hatred for Tokiomi. I've read several posts arguing that Kariya's hatred for Tokiomi is just a reflection of his hatred for Zouken, but isn't that the same thing? The idea that he needed to concentrate his hatred Tokiomi to retain control of his servant, to me, is just a convenient excuse he tells himself to his hatred more acceptable to his eyes.
Ah… Kariya is not that smart? Honestly, if he was that smart and scheming he would not have boldly volunteered for the worm treatment before asking how is Sakura (that is part of his reckless abandon which is a deep flaw of his). Specially later on. Did Aoi rationalize her hatred for Kariya in that scene (which has a ‘killing intent’ towards him in the novel) to make it acceptable to blame Kariya for everything? I don't think so. She was hurt and lashed out at the most convenient party, like hurt people did. The same with Kariya.

Kariya just felt a lot of hatred, between the torture, he could only take it out with a clear target in mind which happened to be a real obstacles to free Sakura. It was not something rationalized, it was more like instinctual if that makes sense. More like an animal in some way, the more that his state keeps degenerating. It seems his actions in the Church can be read as self-preservation instinct that he would crumble into pieces and die the moment after he lost the sight of his goals. He behaved less like a person and more like an automat there. That's what I mean of an outlet, it's a purely emotional reaction based on self-preservation.

Not too dissimilar to Kiritsugu in some ways (who reasons he can't stop because it'll be meaningless).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
So yeah. In short, to me, that anger and resentment he displayed throughout the war was already stored within him long before the war, perhaps in the form of self-pity or self-loathing. He just needed the right outlet to release it.
...Or maybe he stored the anger and resentment in one year straight of intense torture? Since there was no clear evidence of its existence until that gap? Oh, sure, there were some hurt feelings but they were never a big deal to justify I'LL KILL YOU TOKIOMI BUGS OF HELL I CHOOSE YOU. It was frustration that he was dying painfully too. A lot of people gloss over this when it was something that shook him. I'm shocked that they do. After all, he's agonizing in an awful way with bugs eaten him inside, Berserker dream-raping him and sucking his life out, and other gross things. It isn't only for Sakura outrage you know. He is living a hell.
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Last edited by Thess; 2012-06-01 at 09:23.
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Old 2012-06-01, 10:41   Link #271
Qilin
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You sound like a Tokiomi apologist. It's fine to like that character, but that makes you absolutely venomous to Kariya for some reason. Oh well…
I don't like Tokiomi at all.

He's probably one of the most boring characters in this show from my perspective. On the other hand, I'd like to believe that Kariya's character goes much deeper than just someone for the audience to feel sorry for. His character just has so much potential in displaying the human condition.

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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Kariya is hardly a coward. He rebelled against Zouken during his youth. Hardly what I call a cowardly action since he's scary. He is, though, extremely reckless and jumps the gun a lot which is how he landed in his hands again. This was his primary mistake and flaw. Which is obviously equally problematic.
He is a coward because he insists on rationalizing his selfish motives (which may or may not exist depending on who you ask) by convincing himself that he's doing it for Sakura. He would rather jump into a pit and sacrifice his sanity than admit it.

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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
He was convinced? I see. The novels are a third person narrative. Therefore, you can say the author himself describes his motives. They were noble prior one year of torment. They were also based on guilt if you want to bring forth the less selfless heroic ones. Even Kirei calls his reason: atonement.
Oh, in that case, did the author explicitly label his motives as noble?

Well, if his guilt from leaving his position in his family is his sole motive, as opposed to the fact that Sakura is Aoi's daughter, then I'm willing to concede this. Can you acknowledge that? For example, if it were anyone else, would Kariya still take the same risk?

I'm not a novel reader btw, so please keep that in mind.
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
There is no denying there are hidden demons everywhere, brought up by an extreme situation (Tokiomi has them too in regards with Sakura, as does Aoi, but I consider them secondary to his main flaws). Nonetheless, Kariya was insane when he strangled Aoi aka he completely lost the touch with the reality. The light novel itself spells aloud his brain isn't functional and how he'd acted if it was (he would have figured out it was a set up, if I recall). This is not really just anger, hatred, and insecurity as in emotional reactions, but physically his brain was not truly wiring it seems. Maybe because… something is eating his internal organs? Moving on…
Thing is, I don't want to take such a simplistic view of insanity. What does "losing touch with reality" entail exactly? Does it mean impairment of sensory functions? Loss of decision making faculties? Absolute rewriting of memories and emotions? Complete unpredictability?

I go by the belief that each case of "insanity" should looked at individually since putting it all in the same category creates dreadful misconceptions. From my perspective, I saw Kariya's "insanity" as something that essentially crippled the conscious restraints that kept his stored up emotions in check, the potentially dangerous emotions that he refused to accept in the first place.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
He never did it in ten years. Given what chance? You say one thing, but the LN tells another. Once again, the narrative is clear and impartial. When Kariya resents, it is spelled aloud, when he did not (pre-Sakura incident) it does the same. Someone can change opinions after the discovery that the person they entrusted the love of their life sent one of her daughters to be raped by his creepy vampiric relative. Shocking, I know, but it happens.
I remember you saying that he blamed himself for Aoi's decision. At that point, he felt resentment towards himself. If that's the case, I believe it's not that difficult to change the target of that resentment when a more suitable target arises. It's an extension of the natural self preservation instinct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Tokiomi is just easy to hate from an outsider's POV: aloof, arrogant, even tells Kariya he wouldn't mind if his daughters battled to death when he asks. Because all his reasons are incomprehensible to a normal person like Kariya tries to be. Of course he hated him after and blamed him for everything, even his own state I think which was born from the hopeless bitterness of his circumstances (and Sakura's). Nothing heroic there, but understandable.
That moral dissonance between them is exactly what makes Tokiomi such an appropriate target for resentment in his eyes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Ah… Kariya is not that smart? Honestly, if he was that smart and scheming he would not have boldly volunteered for the worm treatment before asking how is Sakura (that is part of his reckless abandon which is a deep flaw of his). Specially later on. Did Aoi rationalize her hatred for Kariya in that scene (which has a ‘killing intent’ towards him in the novel) to make it acceptable to blame Kariya for everything? I don't think so. She was hurt and lashed out at the most convenient party, like hurt people did. The same with Kariya.
Like I said, rationalizing isn't something that is done consciously, so he doesn't need to be smart or scheming to do so. It's a conditioned human reaction to unacceptable ideas or impulses.

As for Aoi, let me quote you for that:
Quote:
She was hurt and lashed out at the most convenient party, like hurt people did. The same with Kariya.
You pretty much gave a good description of rationalization right there.

People who have lost something dear would feel strong negative emotions, emotions that would require an outlet of some sort. In other words, they need someone to blame to vent their negative emotions on. As such, when a convenient target arises, they immediately direct their feelings there. That's exactly what Aoi did.

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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Kariya just felt a lot of hatred, between the torture, he could only take it out with a clear target in mind which happened to be a real obstacles to free Sakura. It was not something rationalized, it was more like instinctual if that makes sense. More like an animal in some way, the more that his state keeps degenerating. It seems his actions in the Church can be read as self-preservation instinct that he would crumble into pieces and die the moment after he lost the sight of his goals. He behaved less like a person and more like an automat there. That's what I mean of an outlet, it's a purely emotional reaction based on self-preservation.

Not too dissimilar to Kiritsugu in some ways (who reasons he can't stop because it'll be meaningless).
I don't see why the two have to be mutually exclusive. Rationalization IS instinctual after all, or rather a conditioned reflex, but the two are indistinguishable in practice.

What we're arguing here is the means and the end. To you, the end is "saving Sakura" and means is "killing Tokiomi". To me, it's the other way around.

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...Or maybe he stored the anger and resentment in one year straight of intense torture? Since there was no clear evidence of its existence until that gap? Oh, sure, there were some hurt feelings but they were never a big deal to justify I'LL KILL YOU TOKIOMI BUGS OF HELL I CHOOSE YOU. It was frustration that he was dying painfully too. A lot of people gloss over this when it was something that shook him. I'm shocked that they do. After all, he's agonizing in an awful way with bugs eaten him inside, Berserker dream-raping him and sucking his life out, and other gross things. It isn't only for Sakura outrage you know. He is living a hell.
Oh, yes. I imagine he used his one year of suffering as another excuse to heighten his hatred for Tokiomi. I mean, he's the perfect target for his resentment towards Zouken.
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Old 2012-06-01, 11:32   Link #272
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Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
He is a coward because he insists on rationalizing his selfish motives (which may or may not exist depending on who you ask) by convincing himself that he's doing it for Sakura. He would rather jump into a pit and sacrifice his sanity than admit it
and why do you think that he is not doing it for Sakura?


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Thing is, I don't want to take such a simplistic view of insanity. What does "losing touch with reality" entail exactly? Does it mean impairment of sensory functions? Loss of decision making faculties? Absolute rewriting of memories and emotions? Complete unpredictability?

I go by the belief that each case of "insanity" should looked at individually since putting it all in the same category creates dreadful misconceptions. From my perspective, I saw Kariya's "insanity" as something that essentially crippled the conscious restraints that kept his stored up emotions in check, the potentially dangerous emotions that he refused to accept in the first place.
he goes to insanity right after Aoi cry because he love Aoi so much that he reject the idea that he would ever make her cry, to the point that he asked himself "Who was this woman" because he don't think she Aoi, and after that, lost all touch with reality and totally don't know who is the woman crying and yelling in front of him.

from the LN

Quote:
Bending her knees to the floor, Aoi lifted Tokiomi’s face up. With no place to hide, Kariya could only watch her. He could not understand why Aoi did such a thing. – No, he did not want to understand. Why she did not even spare a glance at him, her childhood friend, but continually fixed her eyes on the body of Tokiomi; what the meaning of those tears falling down her face was – Kariya obstinately rejected comprehension, and because of that, he could not utter a single word.

If memory served – he was supposed to never make this person – whom he loved above anyone else – cry again, and to fight for her even at the cost of his life.

If that was the case, then this woman sobbing in front of him right now – who was she? If he were to accept the answer, wouldn’t Matō Kariya fall to pieces?
Quote:
“……So now it’s as if the Matōs had gained the Holy Grail, right? Happy now, Kariya-kun?”

It was a familiar voice, but in a tone he had never heard before. That was because his gentle and kind childhood friend had never hated or cursed anyone in front of Kariya before.

“I – but, I – “

Why must he be blamed? Tokiomi Tōsaka was the cause of all the evil. When that man was not around, everything was supposed to turn out well. First of all, why had he died in a place like this? It should have been Kariya asking questions instead.

“Why…..?”

However, not even allowing time for Kariya to reply, she asked him back instead.

“So after snatching Sakura away from me, the Matōs are still not satisfied? Of all people, you killed this man in front of my own eyes…… Why? Did you really hate us so much?”

I don’t know I don’t know.

With a face just like Aoi's; with a voice just like Aoi's; why was this woman directing such seething enmity and cold killing intent towards Matō Kariya?

Kariya was supposed to have saved Aoi. He was supposed to have obtained a future for her beloved daughter. Then why was he being blamed? Who on earth was this woman?
Quote:
With a demonic expression, the woman shouted.

“You, what do you know! Someone who has never loved anyone before!”

“– Ah –“

With a snap –

– the decisive cracking sound caused Matō Kariya to collapse.
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Old 2012-06-01, 11:50   Link #273
Qilin
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and why do you think that he is not doing it for Sakura?
On the surface, he is doing it for Sakura, but I'm also convinced that this is an excuse he tells to himself to justify his desire to hate Tokiomi.

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he goes to insanity right after Aoi cry because he love Aoi so much that he reject the idea that he would ever make her cry, to the point that he asked himself "Who was this woman" because he don't think she Aoi, and after that, lost all touch with reality and totally don't know who is the woman crying and yelling in front of him.
I wasn't talking about how he ended up strangling Aoi, I was talking about his hatred for Tokiomi as a whole.
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Old 2012-06-01, 11:52   Link #274
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^Aren't you just inventing a secondary justification just to support your dislike of a character. From what the others are typing, this secondary justification is not supported by facts from the primary source material.
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Old 2012-06-01, 11:56   Link #275
Qilin
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^ All I'm saying is that my interpretation can coexist with whatever everyone else believes in, I'm not imposing my view on anyone else. I can probably imagine someone bringing up Occam's Razor or whatever, but I just find it more meaningful to interpret his character in that manner. Labeling one interpretation as a "secondary justification" is leading since implies that one is better than the other without question, when, in fact, that is the point of this discussion in the first place.

And quite unfortunately, I believe even the text given by the source material is not all that immune to alternate interpretations as well.
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Old 2012-06-01, 15:56   Link #276
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Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
Okay. Fine. I apologize if I misinterpreted your stance.

I'll make my position here very clear. Pardon me if it seems a bit like a rant.
Spoiler for rant:
Hmm, I see more where your greater thought process lies, but I still disagree somewhat, not that I expect to change your mind. Like others, I do not interpret Kariya as being primarily motivated by his 'selfish desire' for Aoi, but rather he genuinely had Sakura as his main goal with perhaps some hidden feelings mixed in. While he's a cartoon character, were we to interpret him dynamically like a real person, it's entirely possible to have all sorts of motivations and thoughts going on in your head at once.

I see how you could interpret it differently and I'm not authoritative enough on the source material to rebuke your interpretation, but some clues to me that he genuinely cares is how he despises Zouken and is mortified by Sakura's treatment. He displays these emotions completely separately from Aoi. If he didn't really care, then he'd only be trying to look good in front of Aoi. I think it's somewhere in between, he cares about both factors, and he seemed like a level-headed guy before the Zouken infestation. What normal person wouldn't want to get the girl out of there? And going to the extremes that he did, sacrificing his body like that, can't be entirely selfish, at least IMO... it's selfless actually, regardless of the impure feelings he may have had or not. It's too great a sacrifice with too noble a goal to be boiled down to one selfish desire.

I also disagree partially with your 'rant,' as you put it. I think that there are some people out there who certainly have selfish motivations in mind, but do great things because of it. For instance, philanthropy in general in the modern sense of it is very much a PR move, but good things come of it anyways. Another example might be religious people who secretly desire to get into heaven for their good actions rather than really care about the people they are helping. In my view, again it's a little annoying due to being disingenuous, but if good results come of it, I don't see why we should complain. I do think you show something of your own moral judgment in that being a quality you despise. My morality steers me less towards caring about one's motivations and more for the results. In Kariya's case it ends in disaster, but that is simply due to the manipulation of outside forces. Thus, I do not hate him as you do - for I believe his mission was good in nature, and care less about his intentions then the hypothetical goal in mind of saving Sakura. Though like I said above, I think his intentions were mixed and not all selfish, as you do.
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Old 2012-06-01, 17:59   Link #277
Qilin
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Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
Hmm, I see more where your greater thought process lies, but I still disagree somewhat, not that I expect to change your mind. Like others, I do not interpret Kariya as being primarily motivated by his 'selfish desire' for Aoi, but rather he genuinely had Sakura as his main goal with perhaps some hidden feelings mixed in. While he's a cartoon character, were we to interpret him dynamically like a real person, it's entirely possible to have all sorts of motivations and thoughts going on in your head at once.
This is exactly why I want to interpret his character in that manner. It makes his character more human, and thus more meaningful. Of course, he would represent the aspects of humanity I hate the most, but that's beside the point. I don't believe in true altruism, so a show that portrays human selfishness for what it is is refreshing. I want to believe that this show is one that deconstructs even the most noble of human intentions into it's baser components.

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I see how you could interpret it differently and I'm not authoritative enough on the source material to rebuke your interpretation, but some clues to me that he genuinely cares is how he despises Zouken and is mortified by Sakura's treatment. He displays these emotions completely separately from Aoi. If he didn't really care, then he'd only be trying to look good in front of Aoi. I think it's somewhere in between, he cares about both factors, and he seemed like a level-headed guy before the Zouken infestation. What normal person wouldn't want to get the girl out of there? And going to the extremes that he did, sacrificing his body like that, can't be entirely selfish, at least IMO... it's selfless actually, regardless of the impure feelings he may have had or not. It's too great a sacrifice with too noble a goal to be boiled down to one selfish desire.
See, I've been looking for something that indicates that right from the beginning. If I can find that Kariya would have done the things he did for anyone who happened to be unfortunate enough to replace him, I'd have no qualms about putting this whole thing to rest.

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Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
I also disagree partially with your 'rant,' as you put it. I think that there are some people out there who certainly have selfish motivations in mind, but do great things because of it. For instance, philanthropy in general in the modern sense of it is very much a PR move, but good things come of it anyways. Another example might be religious people who secretly desire to get into heaven for their good actions rather than really care about the people they are helping. In my view, again it's a little annoying due to being disingenuous, but if good results come of it, I don't see why we should complain. I do think you show something of your own moral judgment in that being a quality you despise. My morality steers me less towards caring about one's motivations and more for the results. In Kariya's case it ends in disaster, but that is simply due to the manipulation of outside forces. Thus, I do not hate him as you do - for I believe his mission was good in nature, and care less about his intentions then the hypothetical goal in mind of saving Sakura. Though like I said above, I think his intentions were mixed and not all selfish, as you do.
Don't get me wrong. I don't think of selfishness as a bad thing, and it's a necessary part of achieving personal fulfillment. I only dislike it when people deny this selfishness so that it can subsequently be used as leverage to undeservingly elevate a particular moral standard above all others.

I don't want to call my judgments "moral" since it implies holding a person against some arbitrary metaphysical standard of "good" and "evil". I'd rather say that my dislike runs along the lines of feeling pity or disgust towards a beggar on the street.

As a person who loves studying the psychology of characters, I enjoy looking at the rationale behind all sorts of actions made, especially the ones that lie beneath the surface. As such, I believe studying a character in inseparable from looking into their motivations and thought process.
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Old 2012-06-02, 08:43   Link #278
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See, I've been looking for something that indicates that right from the beginning. If I can find that Kariya would have done the things he did for anyone who happened to be unfortunate enough to replace him, I'd have no qualms about putting this whole thing to rest.
I'm not a Fate novel reader, but Kariya knew Sakura and Rin well because they were his friend Aoi's children, and he was very fond of them and vice versa. Sakura was a girl he had spent time with and felt affection for. If saving Sakura was his main goal, that would not automatically equal him being willing to do the same for anyone at all, because Sakura was not just anyone to him. It is entirely possible that he was acting to save her because of the affection he held for her, rather than it having to be because of ulterior motives involving her parents.
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Old 2012-06-02, 10:44   Link #279
Qilin
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I'm not a Fate novel reader, but Kariya knew Sakura and Rin well because they were his friend Aoi's children, and he was very fond of them and vice versa. Sakura was a girl he had spent time with and felt affection for. If saving Sakura was his main goal, that would not automatically equal him being willing to do the same for anyone at all, because Sakura was not just anyone to him. It is entirely possible that he was acting to save her because of the affection he held for her, rather than it having to be because of ulterior motives involving her parents.
Yep. It's entirely possible that Kariya's affection for Sakura was completely independent of his love for Aoi. That certainly is one way of interpreting it. In the end, multiple interpretations can arise from a single set of traces.
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Old 2012-06-08, 02:56   Link #280
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I like Kariya, he indirectly got rid of a bad father, and directly got rid of a horrible mother for Rin.
I mean, the father was so careless the daughter almost got herself killed, while the mother is so passive I doubt the daughter would even learn anything from her. (Maybe how to be a horrible person who will never understand another, probably)
Kirei would raise Rin to be a fine person, that would be best.
But if Kariya won at this point, it wouldn't change Sakura's fate since she has no legal guardian that will live long time anyway. (So she would be adopted by zouken, again.)
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