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Old 2012-06-08, 09:52   Link #29081
Jan-Poo
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But isn't a murder mystery a challenge between the reader and the writer?

I think it's kind of strange to think you can win without taking in account your opponent. The way I see it you win by predicting what the author will write.
This kind of "game" exists in various contexts of storytelling, it is something you constantly see in many threads of this very forum.
People read a story or watch a movie, anime, drama, they comment about it and then they say "I bet that in the next episode character x will do y" and so on.

It isn't really a matter of "make sense", "it's logical", "it's a good idea" and so on, it's a matter of understanding the foreshadowing, the situation and the author in a way that you can predict what he would do next.

Of course when the author is the kind of author that writes a story and thinks "for now I write, I'll decide who's the killer and his reason later, I'll come up with something!" then you can't really figure out what he didn't figure out himself! But I believe this is an example of bad storytelling and not something to be proud of.
You can't really leave proper hints or foreshadowings of something that doesn't exist yet.

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In a sense, KnownNoMore is a victor because he's absolutely convinced he found the answer that he can make a very detailed video (nine hours) explaining it
A victory where you are the only one who recognizes it is a solipsistic victory. A solipsist will always be the victor and the best in the world simply for the fact that from that point of view you're the only person existing in the universe. That's even easier than super easy mode.
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Old 2012-06-08, 11:48   Link #29082
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
A victory where you are the only one who recognizes it is a solipsistic victory. A solipsist will always be the victor and the best in the world simply for the fact that from that point of view you're the only person existing in the universe. That's even easier than super easy mode.
But technically it's impossible to win as a solipsist because nothing else exists to constitute a challenge which could allow for one to be a winner or loser!

Also, since a solipsist believes they alone exist, one can conclude from such a perspective that they also wrote Umineko, so they must have known the correct answer the whole time anyway.
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Old 2012-06-08, 12:40   Link #29083
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Well, the problem with Usagi's Higurashi explanation is that...

Spoiler for Higurashi:
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Old 2012-06-08, 12:43   Link #29084
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You had to accept that part right from the get go, otherwise the arc system doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
Also, that "fantasy" element has nothing to do with the "mystery" part, heck, the story made even less "cookie cutter mystery plot" pretense than Umineko.
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Old 2012-06-08, 20:34   Link #29085
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Well, for Higurashi at least, there could have been some other way to introduce the Rika = center of mystery and then the fact that there are separate arcs wouldn't matter. It would just be a different turn of events that allows the player to get new info from different point of view.

Umineko, Battler even said in the first tea party that he was even going to deny the room that they were standing in. (Funny how some of his theories in EP1 TP were actually... correct in a sense)
Even though Battler never did answer part about the Metaworld, even that along with the repeating of the two days were explained with human means.
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Old 2012-06-09, 00:53   Link #29086
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But isn't a murder mystery a challenge between the reader and the writer?

I think it's kind of strange to think you can win without taking in account your opponent. The way I see it you win by predicting what the author will write.
This kind of "game" exists in various contexts of storytelling, it is something you constantly see in many threads of this very forum.
People read a story or watch a movie, anime, drama, they comment about it and then they say "I bet that in the next episode character x will do y" and so on.

It isn't really a matter of "make sense", "it's logical", "it's a good idea" and so on, it's a matter of understanding the foreshadowing, the situation and the author in a way that you can predict what he would do next.

Of course when the author is the kind of author that writes a story and thinks "for now I write, I'll decide who's the killer and his reason later, I'll come up with something!" then you can't really figure out what he didn't figure out himself! But I believe this is an example of bad storytelling and not something to be proud of.
You can't really leave proper hints or foreshadowings of something that doesn't exist yet.
There's a few quick conclusions done there, tho I think you mostly took out valid critics.
The main one is - in what does Umineko prevent you from guessing in advance what was going to be in the following arc - or even scene as you read a given arc?

I agree coming up with answers mid-way is a bad way to make a story, but it's sadly more common then most people tend to believe (and sometimes made stories better then what one would expect from such a way to write). However for any given stories, "details" can be decided more or less along - things of lesser importance. Those can be very different from the POV of the writer and the pov of a reader tho.

Btw, I don't think you need to think of Umineko as a mystery to solve it, because even fantasy has these foreshadowing rules. I'm not saying Umineko is a fantasy either, but I think it was generally meant to be solved using these very generic rules about most fictions, rather then a specific set concerning classical mysteries.

I still haven't really seen anyone approaching things that way. For instance that Beato lied in red in arc 3 about FT is almost a given if you try to guess what'll happen based on the narration and themes of the arc.


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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Well, the problem with Usagi's Higurashi explanation is that...

Spoiler for Higurashi:
So if you are wounded thanks to a magical beam of some sort, healing is impossible unless it's from magic?
Anyway to me, it makes perfect sense that science might be able to help relieving the symptoms of a curse but is never going to be able to cure it, which is the case.



Edit : Also... I win anytime I read a story I enjoy, I lose every time I waste my time reading a story that annoys me...
And I must admit from that pov it seems a large part of the regulars here "lost" badly at Umineko.

I have to say that to me revealing the entire truth about Umineko would be a very bad thing. The only thing I really see coming out of this is people who had something right rubbing it in every people who disagreed with them's face. Then everyone who got it wrong would whine about the "real" answer being stupid and call Ryuukishi/Umineko names. Is this really what you're all after? Also it doesn't seem like it would change much from right now, doesn't it? I think Ryuukishi himself is actually very aware of this and this is what he was referring to in arc 5 about preventing a truth from crushing every others.

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2012-06-09 at 01:16.
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Old 2012-06-09, 01:24   Link #29087
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Quote:
Edit : Also... I win anytime I read a story I enjoy, I lose every time I waste my time reading a story that annoys me...
And I must admit from that pov it seems a large part of the regulars here "lost" badly at Umineko.
I enjoyed Umineko...up until the last minute.

Quote:
I have to say that to me revealing the entire truth about Umineko would be a very bad thing. The only thing I really see coming out of this is people who had something right rubbing it in every people who disagreed with them's face. Then everyone who got it wrong would whine about the "real" answer being stupid and call Ryuukishi/Umineko names. Is this really what you're all after?
Woah, woah, woah, back off, you are making a lot of presumptions about everyone here. Even if the truth is BAD, it would be better to have an answer than no answer at all. I can respect Ryukishi if he simply didn't have a good answer. I can respect and support him if he gave an answer I wasn't satisfied.

The entire problem is that he took the coward's way out of not commiting to an answer at all. He wanted to have his cake and eat it too, and as a result he doesn't have either.
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Old 2012-06-09, 11:18   Link #29088
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
There's a few quick conclusions done there, tho I think you mostly took out valid critics.
The main one is - in what does Umineko prevent you from guessing in advance what was going to be in the following arc - or even scene as you read a given arc?
My point is not about "lack of hints", which is an entirely different matter that I'd rather not address now, but the lack of confirmation of "what happened" which made pointless any attempt to foresee it.

And I'm talking here not about the whole story in its entirity, because there's a lot of stuff that could be predicted, was predicted and was confirmed (more or less) but all that stuff (including the single twilights, shkanon and the rokkenjima prime incident) that are left inside the catbox.

Arguing about the content of a catbox is absolutely pointless. By the assumption of the very concept of the schroedinger cat, the cat is neither alive nor dead, it's both.
The only thing that it is worthwhile to discuss about is if whether at the time the catbox will be opened the cat will be alive or dead. However if the catbox will never get opened all those people who tried to predict the outcome of such event just wasted their time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Btw, I don't think you need to think of Umineko as a mystery to solve it, because even fantasy has these foreshadowing rules. I'm not saying Umineko is a fantasy either, but I think it was generally meant to be solved using these very generic rules about most fictions, rather then a specific set concerning classical mysteries.
That's exactly my point, it isn't really a matter of "murder mystery" rules. Of course one could could make critics on Umineko based on those, but the "lack of answers about central parts of the plot" is a problem that lies on a general narrative level.


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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Edit : Also... I win anytime I read a story I enjoy, I lose every time I waste my time reading a story that annoys me...
And I must admit from that pov it seems a large part of the regulars here "lost" badly at Umineko.
I'm not saying that you lack criticims, but according to that definition one is more likely to win the lower is his level of criticism.
It's like a game where you win by lack of skills rather than by possessing them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
I have to say that to me revealing the entire truth about Umineko would be a very bad thing. The only thing I really see coming out of this is people who had something right rubbing it in every people who disagreed with them's face. Then everyone who got it wrong would whine about the "real" answer being stupid and call Ryuukishi/Umineko names. Is this really what you're all after? Also it doesn't seem like it would change much from right now, doesn't it? I think Ryuukishi himself is actually very aware of this and this is what he was referring to in arc 5 about preventing a truth from crushing every others.
Did that ever happen? I mean to that level you are imagining? There are a lot of things that were predicted and were confirmed, but I don't remember someone going out and claiming "I told you so, assholes!"

At any rate in any kind of contest there is the risk that someone will act like an idiot after victory, but that doesn't necessarily imply everyone will act like that.

Let's take OMK, for example, One wins, one loses, they both say "GG" at the end and that's it. There is no need for celebrations or anything.
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Old 2012-06-10, 01:31   Link #29089
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Of course when the author is the kind of author that writes a story and thinks "for now I write, I'll decide who's the killer and his reason later, I'll come up with something!" then you can't really figure out what he didn't figure out himself! But I believe this is an example of bad storytelling and not something to be proud of.
You can't really leave proper hints or foreshadowings of something that doesn't exist yet.
I'd like to point out that RK07 touched on this very concept in EP6 when we learned the Gamemaster could change his story right in the middle so long as an answer still existed that fit the reds.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
A victory where you are the only one who recognizes it is a solipsistic victory. A solipsist will always be the victor and the best in the world simply for the fact that from that point of view you're the only person existing in the universe. That's even easier than super easy mode.
Actually, based off of the YouTube comments he's gotten, KnownNoMore does have a modest number of supporters. ShKanon is pretty hard to swallow for some, after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Edit : Also... I win anytime I read a story I enjoy, I lose every time I waste my time reading a story that annoys me...
And I must admit from that pov it seems a large part of the regulars here "lost" badly at Umineko.
Nah man, everyone here loves Umineko. That's why they're here. And if it seems as though some people here dislike it, I might have to explain Tsundere Theory.
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Old 2012-06-10, 01:34   Link #29090
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I'd like to point out that RK07 touched on this very concept in EP6 when we learned the Gamemaster could change his story right in the middle so long as an answer still existed that fit the reds.
In fairness, there's a big difference between rewriting shit in the middle of an interactive game, and a straight, uninteractive narrative. We cannot effect Ryukishi's narrative, but Erika could effect Battler's. The two can't be held to the same standards.

Quote:
Actually, based off of the YouTube comments he's gotten, KnownNoMore does have a modest number of supporters. ShKanon is pretty hard to swallow for some, after all.
>Implying anyone on Youtube has anything of value to say.
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Old 2012-06-10, 02:02   Link #29091
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
And I'm talking here not about the whole story in its entirity, because there's a lot of stuff that could be predicted, was predicted and was confirmed (more or less) but all that stuff (including the single twilights, shkanon and the rokkenjima prime incident) that are left inside the catbox.

Arguing about the content of a catbox is absolutely pointless. By the assumption of the very concept of the schroedinger cat, the cat is neither alive nor dead, it's both.
I would totally agree with you that from the viewpoint of narrative criticism Umineko lacks some necessary points, because it just throws some things out there without ever delivering a payoff. It still has an overall message, but it's as if Hugo decided to just drop the whole Javert arc in the final book or something like that...it doesn't really kill the concept or what Ryűkishi is trying to get across, some major threads are just left dangling in the air.
But I think that is something that just comes with him as a writer, he has done this in almost all his stories (as few as there may be). Even the very short Ôkamikakushi (which is basically a Higurashi rewrite if you ask me) has those problems. He creates all those characters and story arcs and possibilities for them to develop, but he doesn't really emphasize with his readers regarding what they can actually deduce and what they can't. At least that's the feeling I got by now.

I still love Umineko as a concept, because looking at it raises some very interesting question not only about mysteries, but about narrative structures in general...but as a narrative it lacks the same points as always, it's just a little more to my liking due to setting, characters, etc.

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Think there seems to be something forgotten...

In that anti-mystery vs anti-fantasy TIPS, ryuukishi used the example of Maekashi and said basically "what if I had released a new arc later that basically told you what you thought was the truth with Maekashi alone ended up being wrong".
And he actually did do that (or let it be done) again and again by now. This is one of the reasons why I can't take Higurashi seriously anymore.
Spoiler for Higurashi beyond Meakashi:

I'd prefer Umineko's way of an open solution to this retcon marathon any day.
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Old 2012-06-10, 04:02   Link #29092
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And he actually did do that (or let it be done) again and again by now. This is one of the reasons why I can't take Higurashi seriously anymore.
Spoiler for Higurashi beyond Meakashi:

I'd prefer Umineko's way of an open solution to this retcon marathon any day.
I don't think Onisarashi and Yoigoshi and all those shit were written by Ryukishi. Then again, I'm not really sure about that, I'll have to look it up. But I agree here, why do they insist releasing all sorts of sub-series they can pull out of their ass when Higurashi was just fine as it was? You've got all those sappy DS arcs, you've got the manga arcs, you've got a stupid mahjog game out of the blue, you've got an OVA, and don't get me started on Kira!
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Old 2012-06-10, 06:10   Link #29093
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Okay after reading the ???? part of EP8. I've got a question.

Spoiler for Ending of Twilight of the Golden Witch:
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Old 2012-06-10, 06:35   Link #29094
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Well there are some arugments about whether the forgeries include magic scenes or even meta scenes. If they are, then it could be a projection from Tohya, kind of like "writing down memories into a diary to get over with them", which was talked about in EP5.

Another thing is whether Ikuko is Yasu or a random Stranger. If Ikuko is Yasu, it would mean that the "battles" between Battler and Beatrice were not just fictional. But since this is a point, where opinions differ greatly, we cannot say anything for sure.

But there has been more or less an agreement, that EP8 plays mostly in ANGE's head, and not in Tohya's.


Also i don't think you have to use spoiler tags for EP8 here. It's the spoiler thread after all
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Old 2012-06-10, 06:53   Link #29095
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Considering the narration, ep8 Tea party and Ange as Yukari, a good deal of the Meta world is not part of the tales written by Hachijou Tohya.
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Old 2012-06-10, 08:10   Link #29096
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It's not clear what the metaworld actually is, but I think it's a mix between various perspectives the same way the narration jumps from character to character.

The metaworlds of the first four arcs are probably the result of Tohya's internal struggle, EP8 however is almost certainly in Ange's mind. It's hardly debatable when you can consider that in the end she gains godlike powers and that she can make Beatrice appear and disappear at will like turning off and on a light switch.
There are then other clear events like the image of the library that mirrors the view of the city from the skyscraper Ange is in.

Lastly Yukari seems to remember events that happened in the metaworld, which means she must have experienced them directly.
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Old 2012-06-10, 08:50   Link #29097
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In fairness, there's a big difference between rewriting shit in the middle of an interactive game, and a straight, uninteractive narrative. We cannot effect Ryukishi's narrative, but Erika could effect Battler's. The two can't be held to the same standards.
Uninteractive narratives aren't relevant to what I'm talking about. Unless a story is in a state of only partial confirmation (i.e. the foreshadowing is confirmed to the audience but the conclusion isn't) there's no pressure on the author to "come up with something". Now, EP6 itself wasn't interactive, but Umineko as a whole was. There were at least 7 points in time in which Umineko was a story in a state of partial confirmation (between each novel, and arguably between EP8 and Our Confessions etc.). And at those points in time, we, as fans, could and did affect RK07's narrative. Profoundly, in fact (see Land => Banquet).

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So was Umineko inside Tohya's head the whole time? Just everything? The whole magic part, the meta world, all of that? Was that all Battler's memories fighting against Tohya? And the key that Ange used to unlock the door was Tohya finally being able to accept that he IS Battler? Is that where they're going with this? Because that's what it seems like to me.
Yeah, it's one interpretation that's been floating around. Although I prefer the idea that Ikuko=Yasu and the meta-world is a metaphorical platform representing indirect interaction occurring in the actual world between Batter-within-Touya and Beatrice-within-Ikuko.

Also, there's one more tidbit to Umineko for you to read: Our Confessions.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
It's not clear what the metaworld actually is, but I think it's a mix between various perspectives the same way the narration jumps from character to character.
This too. I think the parts with Battler and Beatrice in the early arcs are more or less what I described above, but the other parts may well involve other perspectives.

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EP8 however is almost certainly in Ange's mind.
I, for one, am not so certain. From EP6:

Ikuko: As thanks for the considerable time you have given to me, .........I will someday write your tale.
Ange: Am I going to appear in another of your forgeries? ...I hope you kill me in a slightly better way this time.
Ikuko: ......Do you...like miracles?
Ange: Are you talking about opportunism? ......I used to hate it, but recently I've become a big fan. Still, I'm picky about what I'll accept, and falling from a skyscraper and ending up unharmed isn't what I'd call a miracle.
Ikuko: Then, one day, perhaps, I will write you a tale that you consider a miracle......

Foreshadowing the EP8 ???? perhaps?

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Lastly Yukari seems to remember events that happened in the metaworld, which means she must have experienced them directly.
Wait, she did? When?
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Old 2012-06-10, 08:55   Link #29098
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Yukari explicitely mentions that "the witch said that everyone died in red".
Basically, even her trusted the red to the very end, which make a certain involvement of the Meta World into the real world.
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Old 2012-06-10, 09:49   Link #29099
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After all, ......didn't the witches say that he was dead so often with the red truth...?
This? I believe she's talking about the forgeries, which at that point she knew that they were written by Tohya.
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Old 2012-06-10, 10:01   Link #29100
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Ryu07 probably left whether the Meta World was real (As opposed to being some struggle in Tohya's mind) or not intentionally open to interpretation. I don't think there's one specific reading of it he had in mind for the story as a whole.
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