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Old 2012-06-08, 18:49   Link #1041
GrimJack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
His skill was so wasted on hentai...especially because he's also great a great author aside from being an amazing artist.
anyone who has ever read his hentai realized he usually included a rare thing PLOT lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by FredFriendly View Post
For this I am an anime only viewer, and will probably not read the manga (or whatever other form it's in), but I doubt that Momoe will ever be able to actually see Yuuko. If she could, she would stop being the show's butt monkey.
too bad Momoe is much better in the manga (and gets lots of development as a character)

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Old 2012-06-08, 19:09   Link #1042
Randrak42
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Originally Posted by GrimJack View Post
anyone who has ever read his hentai realized he usually included a rare thing PLOT lol
Plot...sex...sex...sex...sex...final page with plot :I
Let's not compare plots that have to include (and mostly lead to) sex with what we have now.
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Old 2012-06-08, 19:09   Link #1043
Shadow5YA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredFriendly View Post
I wasn't questioning Yuuko's invisibility (or unnoticability, as you call it), rather, on the after-effects of the things after she lets go of them. In this example, as I specifically stated, the chopsticks and omlette. I can accept, as a plot device, that those unaware of her do not see her or the clothes she wears or anything she is holding (except idiot boy, of course, 'cause he never disappears, unfortunately).

But, wouldn't that make her invisible to those people who do not see her? Isn't that what invisible means? Among several definitions on the thefreedictionary.com I like this one '2. Not accessible to view; hidden: mountain peaks invisible in the fog' and this one '3. Not easily noticed or detected; inconspicuous: "The poor are politically invisible" (Michael Harrington)."'
That's a little inaccurate, because people do see the objects she carries, and at times her figure itself. You make it sound like no one makes a fuss about the things she does, when in fact people do multiple times.

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Originally Posted by FredFriendly View Post
Oh, I understand why she is enthralled with idiot boy. But, by your reasoning for accepting Yuuko's behaviour as justifiable, there's no reason to give up a seat on a bus or subway for a very old person or very pregnant woman, simply because they have never shown you any regard. That's some pretty screwed up logic (or morals), in my opinion, to believe Yuuko's justified in acting like a total jerk just because noone's taken notice of her in 50+ year.
A false analogy. The old or pregnant is in need and have not done anything. In your scenario this person in need of a seat is likely a stranger you don't see often, if at all. On the other hand, Yuuko sees the students every single day, and is either ignored or looked at with horror.





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Originally Posted by FredFriendly View Post
You may think I'm insulting Kirie's character by implication. You are certainly entitled to your own opinion. But then, I haven't seen Kirie slap Yuuko, push idiot boy down a flight of stairs, and harass Momoe to no end out of jealousy. Have you? And she certainly doesn't have anything but praise for idiot boy. Quite the contrary. Or have I been watching a different version of the anime than you have?
I'm fairly sure Kirie was hostile towards Yuuko for an extended period of time until Teiichi won her over. Hell, she may be part of cause to why Yuuko has had no companions until now if Teiichi isn't the first person Kirie tried to scare away.

Second, Yuuko pushing Teiichi down the stairs was under the influence of Shadow Yuuko.

Teiichi also has more than just praise for Yuuko. Even he has problems with her flirtiness at times. If you haven't noticed, he is the one who pushes Yuuko to help others. Had it not been for him, the blonde Yuuko would have been killed in the Akahito-san scare.

As for Momoe, her enthusiasm towards the supernatural can be as annoying as Yuuko's enthusiasm towards Teiichi when she pulls people along without caring about whether they want any part in it or not. The anime just made her more sympathetic by giving her an interest in Teiichi when she just runs all over the place. I never took her character seriously, but if you want to charge the slapstick as unjustified violence, then I'll give you that.
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Old 2012-06-08, 19:16   Link #1044
GrimJack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
Plot...sex...sex...sex...sex...final page with plot :I
Let's not compare plots that have to include (and mostly lead to) sex with what we have now.
I hope you realize I wasn't too serious with that post though I think it is more plot plot plot sex sex sex plot

TOxA is one of my top five manga I wasn't trying to denigrate it at all, Maybe is a great artist and storyteller, he WAS wasted on hentai but many mangaka get there start from there...so it goes...
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Old 2012-06-08, 19:21   Link #1045
Randrak42
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On another not...having a name like Maybe can make some posts confusing.
I just read
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Originally Posted by GrimJack View Post
TOxA is one of my top five manga I wasn't trying to denigrate it at all, Maybe is a great artist and storyteller,
As
Quote:
TOxA is one of my top five manga I wasn't trying to denigrate it at all, maybe he is a great artist and storyteller,
xD
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Old 2012-06-08, 19:33   Link #1046
GrimJack
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Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
On another not...having a name like Maybe can make some posts confusing.
I just read

As

xD
maybe(lol) I should use the Japanese めいびい to avoid confusion haha

I just checked out Maybe's blog and I think he is saying that Yuuko's past is not necessarily how he will be presenting it in manga they had freedom to do it "their way"
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Old 2012-06-08, 19:41   Link #1047
FredFriendly
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
That's a little inaccurate, because people do see the objects she carries, and at times her figure itself. You make it sound like no one makes a fuss about the things she does, when in fact people do multiple times.
This is getting more and more off the mark as we discuss it. I seem to remember actually asking questions specifically regarding chopsticks and an omlette which Momoe could not see.

Quote:
A false analogy. The old or pregnant is in need and have not done anything. In your scenario this person in need of a seat is likely a stranger you don't see often, if at all. On the other hand, Yuuko sees the students every single day, and is either ignored or looked at with horror.
Yuuko does not "know" these students, either, but does that mean that she has to be inconsiderate towards them? Not very good human nature, but, then again, she's not human anymore, so I guess it's alright if she's a complete jerk.

Quote:
I'm fairly sure Kirie was hostile towards Yuuko for an extended period of time until Teiichi won her over. Hell, she may be part of cause to why Yuuko has had no companions until now if Teiichi isn't the first person Kirie tried to scare away.
I think it is more likely that Yuuko hasn't had any companions until idiot boy came along because she's a spoiled, inconsiderate, selfish, and snotty brat. After all, Kirie's only been going to that school for, what, a year or two? What about all the other 50 years or so that Yuuko couldn't get along with anyone? Who's fault would that be? Surely you must be joking if you're suggesting that's Kirie's fault.

Quote:
Second, Yuuko pushing Teiichi down the stairs was under the influence of Shadow Yuuko.
You talk like Shadow Yuuko and non-Shadow Yuuko are not one and the same being.

Quote:
Teiichi also has more than just praise for Yuuko. Even he has problems with her flirtiness at times. If you haven't noticed, he is the one who pushes Yuuko to help others. Had it not been for him, the blonde Yuuko would have been killed in the Akahito-san scare.
Yes, idiot boy had to force Yuuko into action since she couldn't care less about anyone other than him. They could all go rot in hell as far as she's concerned. How sweet of her.

Quote:
As for Momoe, her enthusiasm towards the supernatural can be as annoying as Yuuko's enthusiasm towards Teiichi when she pulls people along without caring about whether they want any part in it or not. The anime just made her more sympathetic by giving her an interest in Teiichi when she just runs all over the place. I never took her character seriously, but if you want to charge the slapstick as unjustified violence, then I'll give you that.
At least Momoe has the common courtesy to not come bursting into the classroom and hounding idiot boy during the middle of a test. At least, not yet.
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Old 2012-06-08, 22:55   Link #1048
Kaoru Chujo
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Haha. Interesting discussion of Yuuko. I'm on her side. She seems fairly normal, to me. Harsh and flippant, but so are some of the rest of us, who haven't spent fifty years not able to communicate with anyone, or at least with many people. I look forward to seeing the reintegrated Yuuko, who may be even more difficult to deal with when she has recovered all her memories and reintegrated her shadow self.

Heck, I even like Momoe, now that I know she hasn't a chance of coming between Teiichi and Yuuko. I've never enjoyed Fukuen Misato's work this much.
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Old 2012-06-09, 00:14   Link #1049
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*sees current topic*

I leave you with this.
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Old 2012-06-09, 00:43   Link #1050
Marcus H.
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Hey, Mr. FredFriendly, can I ask why is the reason for your continuous insistence that Yuuko-san is a

Quote:
Originally Posted by FredFriendly
Yuuko hasn't had any companions until idiot boy came along because she's a spoiled, inconsiderate, selfish, and snotty brat.
Calling her that is really really inconsiderate, actually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo
Harsh and flippant, but so are some of the rest of us, who haven't spent fifty years not able to communicate with anyone, or at least with many people.
Even if we haven't been 50-year recluses, we all have our moments of harshness.
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Old 2012-06-09, 06:36   Link #1051
FredFriendly
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Hey, Mr. FredFriendly, can I ask why is the reason for your continuous insistence that Yuuko-san is a "spoiled, inconsiderate, selfish, and snotty brat."

Calling her that is really really inconsiderate, actually..
How is it inconsiderate of me to call her that when that is what she is? Do I really need to give examples? And to who is it inconsiderate? The fictional character Yuuko? Or to all those who are reading this forum that seem to idolize her as someone who can do no wrong?

What I find most interesting is that you're not complaining about me calling Teiichi "idiot boy," which I have done many more times. Apparently you must agree with me on that one.
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Old 2012-06-09, 09:40   Link #1052
Marcus H.
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How is it inconsiderate of me to call her that when that is what she is? Do I really need to give examples? And to who is it inconsiderate? The fictional character Yuuko? Or to all those who are reading this forum that seem to idolize her as someone who can do no wrong?
Just because she is a fictional character doesn't mean that her persona is completely non-existent in this universe. That said, I don't think that her attitude is that extreme to award this kind of criticism. First of all, Yuuko knows that Teiichi would end up with either Momoe or Kirie after probably a week or so of surveillance of Teiichi, so she acted like that towards them. It's her jealousy acting up, an effect of having some of her memories restored.

Also, please refrain from calling out the fanboys. You're in the worst place to call them out.

Quote:
What I find most interesting is that you're not complaining about me calling Teiichi "idiot boy," which I have done many more times. Apparently you must agree with me on that one.
You're funny, just like what Aphrah said earlier.

We can sometimes be complete fools when it comes to falling in love for the first time. You can't just assume that every single person would know what to do when put in the same situation as Teiichi (whether the girl involved is a ghost or not doesn't matter); Real Life's not a visual novel, for Pete's sake.
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Old 2012-06-09, 10:31   Link #1053
Shadow5YA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredFriendly View Post
This is getting more and more off the mark as we discuss it. I seem to remember actually asking questions specifically regarding chopsticks and an omlette which Momoe could not see.
Only in your eyes.

The point was that Yuuko's invisibility is subjective. You stated problems where her invisibility is beyond suspension of disbelief when in fact some of her interactions with her surrounds are noticable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FredFriendly View Post
Yuuko does not "know" these students, either, but does that mean that she has to be inconsiderate towards them? Not very good human nature, but, then again, she's not human anymore, so I guess it's alright if she's a complete jerk.
Again, false analogy. An elderly person or pregnant woman you may only meet once or twice in your life is different from teenagers you see pass by you on a daily basis.

However, for the sake of argument, let's assume your comparison is valid. In that case, you are chastising a person for not going beyond the line of duty do the maximal amount of good. By your line of logic, when Momoe wanted a ghost story investigated, all of the students in the entire school not named Teiichi or Kirie are "complete jerks" because they did not help her. Also, when the blonde Yuuko was tied up in the Akahito-san panic, everyone in the school is a complete jerk expect for Teiichi, Kirie, Momoe, and Yuuko. Only a select few helped, leaving the majority of the school inactive.
You should see the flaw in that moral judgment. Certainly, Yuuko is nowhere near the paragon of virtue, but it's hardly a heavy sin either.

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Originally Posted by FredFriendly View Post
I think it is more likely that Yuuko hasn't had any companions until idiot boy came along because she's a spoiled, inconsiderate, selfish, and snotty brat. After all, Kirie's only been going to that school for, what, a year or two? What about all the other 50 years or so that Yuuko couldn't get along with anyone? Who's fault would that be? Surely you must be joking if you're suggesting that's Kirie's fault.
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Originally Posted by FredFriendly View Post
How is it inconsiderate of me to call her that when that is what she is? Do I really need to give examples? And to who is it inconsiderate? The fictional character Yuuko? Or to all those who are reading this forum that seem to idolize her as someone who can do no wrong?

What I find most interesting is that you're not complaining about me calling Teiichi "idiot boy," which I have done many more times. Apparently you must agree with me on that one.
This is getting circular. This is no longer "Yuuko is terrible character because of what she has done" but now "Yuuko is a terrible character, therefore everything she has done must be seen in a terrible light."

I had thought I was having a discussion with you, but you seem to be speaking to a near nonexistent extreme, because I sure as hell don't think she's a Mary Sue or anywhere close to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FredFriendly View Post
You talk like Shadow Yuuko and non-Shadow Yuuko are not one and the same being.
... they aren't. Didn't the story make it obvious that they are separate beings with separate experiences? If they were the same, then Yuuko should know why she's still bound to the school and what happened in the past, and any mystery behind it would have been solved by now.

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Originally Posted by FredFriendly View Post
Yes, idiot boy had to force Yuuko into action since she couldn't care less about anyone other than him. They could all go rot in hell as far as she's concerned. How sweet of her.
A good deed is a good deed. If you want to criticize characters for having impure motives, at least be uniform about it. However, since you don't place any weight on Kirie joining the club out of her tsundereness for Teiichi and Yuuko instead of any real curiosity for the supernatural, I suspect that this is really just your personal distaste for the characters again instead of any real valid justification.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FredFriendly View Post
At least Momoe has the common courtesy to not come bursting into the classroom and hounding idiot boy during the middle of a test. At least, not yet.
She is a student and has her own classes as well. Otherwise, she does come hounding after Teiichi and Kirie - multiple times. I don't see anything wrong about it personally, but I find it appropriate to play devil's advocate when you don't seem to have any problem with this act when a character other than Yuuko does it.

Anyway, it would be nice if you could clarify to whom (or what) party you are directing ideas towards. If you really are responding to me, I would appreciate it if you didn't pull the straw man's argument. Yuuko as a character in the story is obviously flawed, and I can see that she is flawed. If I happen to disagree with you because I don't think your argument is fair, so be it. I am on my own side before I am on anyone else's.
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Old 2012-06-09, 14:19   Link #1054
FredFriendly
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Only in your eyes...
Around, and around, and around we go, where we stop, nobody knows. Actually, I have one further comment, then I shall bow out of this "discussion" with you, as we are getting nowhere, and filling the forum with ridiculous banter.

Anyhow, regarding:

Quote:
... they aren't. Didn't the story make it obvious that they are separate beings with separate experiences? If they were the same, then Yuuko should know why she's still bound to the school and what happened in the past, and any mystery behind it would have been solved by now.
My interpretation (and apparently that of many others who have posted here on this forum) is that Yuuko and Shadow Yuuko are two halves of a whole. It seems to me that she has a type of ghostly dissociative identity disorder, with two separate, distinct personalities. As with real-life examples of this disorder, one of the personalities may be completely unaware of the other personalities' existence (Yuuko) whereas another of the personalities is completely aware of one or more of the other personalities (Shadow Yuuko). Indeed, the wiki description of the illness fits Yuuko to a tee ("two or more distinct identities or personality states", "memory loss that goes beyond normal forgetfulness", caused by "severe physical and sexual abuse", etc.). The only difference here is that each personality takes on its own "physical" presence, which is understandable because she is no longer human. Plus, who would want to see that beautiful ghost morph into her hideously grinning alternative self?

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Originally Posted by GrimJack View Post
too bad Momoe is much better in the manga (and gets lots of development as a character)
If that's the case, then I might consider reading the manga. I would like to see Momoe fleshed out as something other than a butt monkey. There does seems to be a lot of hate directed at her here on this forum, but I guess that could simply be a result of not wanting her "coming between Teiichi and Yuuko."
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Old 2012-06-09, 14:28   Link #1055
RX-78GP04G Gerbera
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It's really just because the anime doesn't give her any real point of being there like the manga does. Like she's just the usual loud side character that it wouldn't matter if she was there or not in the long run...
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Old 2012-06-09, 15:51   Link #1056
mangamuscle
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Originally Posted by GrimJack View Post
TOxA is one of my top five manga I wasn't trying to denigrate it at all, Maybe is a great artist and storyteller, he WAS wasted on hentai but many mangaka get there start from there...so it goes...
AFAIK mangakas never start doing hentai, they might end up doing hentai because they want to stay in the "business" but they also have to pay the rent and eat. I would link it to the stygma any movie director would get for doing an average xxx film. This is the very first time I have heard someone has raised from doing hentai manga and done a succesful manga. That would also explain why he was so lenient with the changes the studio did with his story, as long as he gets more readers he will probably be happy.
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Old 2012-06-09, 16:02   Link #1057
GrimJack
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I know others have though I cant remember there names they come from doujinshi into drawing mainstream manga
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Old 2012-06-09, 16:04   Link #1058
Randrak42
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Originally Posted by mangamuscle View Post
AFAIK mangakas never start doing hentai, they might end up doing hentai because they want to stay in the "business" but they also have to pay the rent and eat. I would link it to the stygma any movie director would get for doing an average xxx film. This is the very first time I have heard someone has raised from doing hentai manga and done a succesful manga. That would also explain why he was so lenient with the changes the studio did with his story, as long as he gets more readers he will probably be happy.
Oh! Great (Air Gear)
Boichi (Sun-Ken-Rock)
The Satou brothers (Highschool of the Dead)
Nakata Yumi (Kanojo no Kagi wo Akeru Houhou)
Takeda Hiromitsu (Makin-ki)

These (and few others I don't remember right now) all started doing hentai before making their hit non-h manga series.
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Old 2012-06-09, 16:08   Link #1059
mangamuscle
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Originally Posted by GrimJack View Post
I know other have though I cant remember there names they come from doujinshi into drawing mainstream manga
I was talking about mainstream hentai (AFAIK there are such kind of magazines with near zero amounts of plot), dong dojinshi is most of the time a hobby (as in, you either are still a student or have a day job).


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Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
These (and few others I don't remember right now) all started doing hentai before making their hit non-h manga series.
I do remember the HOTD brothers (their H-origins still shows in the artwork), albeit they have not published a chapter for so long it was no longer in my mind. If the maken-ki manga is like the anime it still lacks what I call an entertaining plot >_<
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Old 2012-06-09, 16:24   Link #1060
Randrak42
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Originally Posted by mangamuscle View Post
I was talking about mainstream hentai (AFAIK there are such kind of magazines with near zero amounts of plot), dong dojinshi is most of the time a hobby (as in, you either are still a student or have a day job).
Oh! Great's hentai ran in Core Magazine.
Boichi's hentai were published by Hit Publishing Company.
Satou Shouji's hentai ran in Core Magazine.
Nakata Yumi's hentai were published by Jitsugyou no Nihonsha and some even ran in a magazine.
Takeda Hiromitsu's hentai were published by multiple different publishers and ran in different magazines.

I also think you are quite mistaken about Dj. While some do Dj as a hobby, many use it as a way to better their skills while gaining the opportunity to enter the industry. Many more mangaka started out doing Dj (non-h) because they either lacked the money, skill or opportunity to get published by a company. Many Dj artists do them because they aim to be mangaka, sadly only a few actually manage so, and fewer get hit series.

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I do remember the HOTD brothers (their H-origins still shows in the artwork), albeit they have not published a chapter for so long it was no longer in my mind. If the maken-ki manga is like the anime it still lacks what I call an entertaining plot >_<
Well you might not consider it to have a good plot but some people do, it's a matter of taste. Plus it was a hit manga in Japan, proving the point that some mangaka with hit manga started out in hentai.
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