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Old 2012-06-07, 18:49   Link #1721
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
I think the point there was that Ange clings onto seeking the one truth about everything so much that she is incapable of trusting any words that aren't red, meaning, she cannot love, since there is absolutely no way to prove such a thing by human means.
That's not what I was debating.

At any rate there is much more that had to be going wrong in Ange's head to do what she did than the simple desire of knowing the truth and the refusal of lies.

Wants to know the truth -> disbelieves everything -> cannot love -> loses any morality and human emphaty -> begins finding pleasure in troubling people -> kills everyone who is or might be in her path.

That's a big chain of non sequiturs.
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Old 2012-06-08, 00:53   Link #1722
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This is another thing that sort of bugs me. Ryukishi keeps equating 'love' to something like 'faith', and that's just messed up.
He's not completely 'equating' them, actually...What he says is something like the following: How can you be sure that a person you love loves you back? Well, you can't if you don't have faith, since there is no physical evidence suggesting the other person's feelings are truthful, or even if there was, you can never be sure what is going on inside other people. Frankly put, love is an illusion that comes true when both sides perceive it.
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Old 2012-06-08, 01:04   Link #1723
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Quote:
He's not completely 'equating' them, actually...What he says is something like the following: How can you be sure that a person you love loves you back? Well, you can't if you don't have faith, since there is no physical evidence suggesting the other person's feelings are truthful, or even if there was, you can never be sure what is going on inside other people. Frankly put, love is an illusion that comes true when both sides perceive it.
Yea, well, fuck that. You can be pretty damn sure if someone loves you through their actions.

My boyfriend proposed his love to me by mailing me a cake that spelled "I LOVE YOU" out in strawberries, based on a comment I made about my favorite food from half a year ago I didn't even remember making.

Then he abandoned his entire life and family in his old area to move to where I was because we thought I was dying, and he wanted to spend the rest of my short life with me. When I got better, that 'short life' became 'long life', and he continuously does heroic, knightly, loving things for me that demonstrates that I'm on his thoughts constantly.

Fuck Ryukishi's definition of love, fuck the Red Truth, fuck the Blue Truth, and fuck illusions. I know when someone loves me. I don't have to take it on 'faith', 'trust', or 'a good guess'. This man has taken me on a planeride to show a garden of roses spelling out our names inside a heart from a bird's eye view. He loves me.
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Old 2012-06-08, 06:51   Link #1724
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
He's not completely 'equating' them, actually...What he says is something like the following: How can you be sure that a person you love loves you back? Well, you can't if you don't have faith, since there is no physical evidence suggesting the other person's feelings are truthful, or even if there was, you can never be sure what is going on inside other people. Frankly put, love is an illusion that comes true when both sides perceive it.
Well... apart from Aura's tangent... you can't be absolutely certain that someone loves you, but if you were to take that a purely philosophical concept you can't be absolutely certain about a damn nothing. Including that someone doesn't love you.

Ange in the trick ending didn't simply reach a status where she disbelieved anything as it's proper of a skeptic.
She decided that in doubt, no matter how little doubt it was, it was always best to assume the worst scenario.

Apart from the fact that "lack of absolute certainty" doesn't equate "everything is equally possible"
This isn't skepticism, this is paranoia.


A better approach would be to act on the assumption that the truth is the one that's most probable, and when someone tells he loves you, acts like someone who loves you, and talks like someone who loves you and there is no valid reason to think he'd fake it all, well you should assume that he loves you not the opposite.
There is no need to have blind faith, which would cause you to still believe you're loved even when your partner gave clear signs of wanting to break up.

Also, there is no need to be loved in return to love.
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Old 2012-06-08, 08:11   Link #1725
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There were many things found in his room... There were many things found in my room... Nothing was found in her room...
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Old 2012-06-08, 08:22   Link #1726
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Fuck Ryukishi's definition of love, fuck the Red Truth, fuck the Blue Truth, and fuck illusions. I know when someone loves me. I don't have to take it on 'faith', 'trust', or 'a good guess'. This man has taken me on a planeride to show a garden of roses spelling out our names inside a heart from a bird's eye view. He loves me.
Congrats, your man's a knight. Clearly, there is no need for red truths here, as love is not something that you need to see with your eyes. To put it with the words of a different author, 'the eyes of the heart are more reliable than your actual eyes'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
A better approach would be to act on the assumption that the truth is the one that's most probable, and when someone tells he loves you, acts like someone who loves you, and talks like someone who loves you and there is no valid reason to think he'd fake it all, well you should assume that he loves you not the opposite.
Which is the point that I was making that this is Ange's error in the first place.

Quote:
There is no need to have blind faith, which would cause you to still believe you're loved even when your partner gave clear signs of wanting to break up.
I guess 'faith' was the wrong word here. Maybe that should be 'love'. Ange lacks 'love', so she can't trust words that aren't red. Clearly, the scene were she shoots the shit out of Amakusa and Kawabata was symbolic and is only absurd if interpreted in a completely literal fashion.

Quote:
Also, there is no need to be loved in return to love.
It's not like I disagree but...What does that have to do with anything?
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Old 2012-06-08, 08:49   Link #1727
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It's not like I disagree but...What does that have to do with anything?
Well, at least in the context of Erika's thoughts on the matter, the notion that she might not be loved back seemed more important to her than why she loved someone. Actually, I'm not even sure we know why she loved him.

From Ange's perspective, I think the idea is that as a character she's wanted certainty, but a particular kind of certainty. She hasn't gotten that certainty, so she doesn't know how to react: Does she doubt everything if she can't get the reality she wants, or does she find some way to adjust to the fact that what she doesn't know is something she may never be able to change?

Erika's situation was similar. She wanted to believe she was loved (because that, apparently, was far more important to her), but since she couldn't find anything definitive, she preferred the certainty she invented to eternal doubt. Ange seems to have a harder time committing to that line of thinking anywhere but the Trick ending.

How exactly that relates back to magic is a little muddier, but obviously people have provided explanations for that.
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Old 2012-06-08, 10:12   Link #1728
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Erika's situation was similar. She wanted to believe she was loved (because that, apparently, was far more important to her), but since she couldn't find anything definitive, she preferred the certainty she invented to eternal doubt. Ange seems to have a harder time committing to that line of thinking anywhere but the Trick ending.
I believe that's exactly what a "witch of truth" is. One cannot be called a "witch" if she doesn't perform some kind of "magic" and Erika is no exception.
Despite the fact she claims to despise lies and fantasy in the end she lies as much as Beatrice does.

So what Erika really hates is the uncertainty, any solution to a mystery is good with her as long as it can't be denied, even if that solution is entirely made up.

If there is a catbox she'll declare that the cat is dead even if there is no actual proof to conclude it is. In the end as long as the catbox remains closed no one can prove her wrong.


Ange took this path when she decided that Eva was the culprit and she persevered on that path when she decided that Amakusa wanted to kill her and that Kawabata betrayed her.

That however has absolutely nothing to do with the search for the truth.
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Old 2012-06-08, 11:43   Link #1729
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Well, it's also a semi-interesting point about love as has been briefly discussed in the last page or so.

Some people just want to "be in love." Some people want to be loved. Some people want to love others.

If your sole goal is to have someone love you, any doubt or adversity is going to make you stumble. There's a reason loving someone else is called "unconditional." If you truly love them unconditionally and fully, even if you know they're doing things that are imperfect or wrong, you continue to love them.

Granted, loving unconditionally isn't the same thing as supporting unconditionally. But the point is, it doesn't appear that Erika ever really had any desire to love. If she ever did, she doesn't explain why or how.
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Old 2012-06-08, 11:56   Link #1730
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Granted, loving unconditionally isn't the same thing as supporting unconditionally.
That's a very important concept, that unfortunately some people have a hard time to understand.

Anyway we don't know much about Erika's past and we don't know how much of that past we know is a total invention of Ikuko or something that the real Erika experienced. And we don't know if there's ever been a time when she believed in love, was capable of love and wanted to love.
All we know is that at the time of the story she is completely loveless.
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Old 2012-06-08, 15:29   Link #1731
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In fairness to Erika, I'd like to point out that the man she loved did make her out to be a fool in public when she confronted him about it, then dumped her. She didn't seem to have QUITE pulled an "Ange's Truth Ending", here.

She's also like 14-16 or some shit, and this was probably her first boyfriend. People tend to cling to that regardless of how they'd normally act in a relationship, and it's implied by her disappearance off her cruiseboat that she may have attempted suicide because of it. She's acting all histrionic as overemotional teenagers do.

But, you know, Meta-World shenanigans force her to calcify into an exaggerated stereotype of herself, as if she were one of Yasu's or Tohya's characters...
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Old 2012-06-10, 02:24   Link #1732
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I believe that's exactly what a "witch of truth" is. One cannot be called a "witch" if she doesn't perform some kind of "magic" and Erika is no exception.
Despite the fact she claims to despise lies and fantasy in the end she lies as much as Beatrice does.
And isn't that exactly the fatal flaw of a "witch of truth" in opposition to a "detective" that is hinted at during Umineko?
The detective needs to find an already existing truth about a matter and put it into understandable perspective. The truth might be to his liking or his disliking. The witch of truth creates a truth from the elements that are at her disposal. It is not about actually reintegrating the events that happened into reality, but forming a new reality based on your own design. That is why I liked the last words that Battler and Erika exchanged, because they were suddenly on the same common ground again and accepted each other as equals, not trying to destroy each others reality through power and violence.
The truth a witch of truth creates is not necessarily true in terms of it's relation to reality, but rather in how believable it is. Just like Bern's miracles and Lambda's certainty are not necessarily miraculous or certain, they are just using elements at their disposal to make them appear as such.

And that is exactly what we learned about magic, isn't it? Magic is making people believe in what you show them, be it using evidence to create truth, making something improbable be called a miracle or using numbers to heighten the image of certainty. It all comes back down to belief and that is why Ryűkishi likens it to his view of love.

Just like Jan-Poo said, you can't be certain of anything in this world, which is why it is portrayed as necessary to at least belief in the existence of something for the world to have a meaning.
Like Renall said very accurately, if you simply seek to be loved, everything can make you doubt it. And I think what Aura Twilight said is pretty important too, because we have to think about the characters age.
Ryűkishi said this all boils down to the story of a girl in love. I think it's important to remember that Yasu is at heart a little girl who is demanding what Renall implied. She doesn't really care who it is, as is shown by her being torn apart about 3 people, she simply wants love as a proof of her own existence...any of those existences that she chose to engage herself in. If she isn't loved she practically doesn't exist, because she doesn't love herself.
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Old 2012-06-11, 08:58   Link #1733
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What I always thought was interesting, and which I figured the games would touch on but they never really did, was the different forms of love the three cousins seemed to have for Yasu, at least as far as the game actually portrays:
  • George wants to be loved; his devotion seems superficial but he demands a lot from Shannon and his vision for her is largely about how he wants to be treated. Ryukishi can swear up and down the love was mutual but I don't see him doing an awful lot of things that don't all come back to him.
  • Jessica wants to be in love; the whole Jessica/Kanon thing is cute, and a little sweet, but also very shallow and superficial too. Just in a different way from George. Jessica isn't really demanding anything of Kanon because she doesn't know what she wants from the relationship, just that she wants the relationship to exist.
  • Battler appears to be the closest to some form of unconditional or at least intellectual love. As far as we know from the backstory we're given in later episodes, Battler's relationship was founded on sharing, giving, and promising to do things with no expectation of getting anything back. Even if it wasn't a romantic love (perhaps Battler never saw it as such), it was mutual, meaningful, and unselfish. Knights on white horses don't tend to demand things of the fair maiden they rescue, or at least, not before they rescue them.
AuraTwilight told me elsewhere that the four cousins (throwing Maria in there) could arguably be arranged to represent the four forms of classical Greek love, but I don't know enough about that to say.
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Old 2012-06-11, 10:24   Link #1734
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I think George's case is more of a "possessive" kind of love. I don't think he actually craves for affection or at least that's not his main drive.

He wants Shannon to be his wife as part of a "great design" he has in mind. He constantly makes projects without actually asking Shannon's opinion, or without actually inquiring what are Shannon's dreams.

I might be biased but I think that "getting the girl" is all part of George's self realization projects. He wants to think of himself as a "winner", a popular guy an overachiever. And ironically it seems that in Rokkenjima prime he was actually seen as a good for nothing, a loser and a hikikomori.

Now don't misunderstand me, I think that George was pretty fond of Shannon, but on the same way a car freak would be fond of a supercar or a military otaku would be fond of his AK-47 high grade replica.
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Old 2012-06-11, 11:09   Link #1735
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The main thing I really noticed is that Battler is the only person who gives to the relationship. Jessica's not really asking for much, but she's not giving either. George wants everything done according to his designs, and I can't once recall him questioning whether Shannon agreed with him or what she actually wanted. Even the "promise," which was Battler's "sin," is essentially regarded as a sin precisely because it was an act of apparent selflessness that was made insincerely (at least, that'd be the perspective of Culprit-Yasu apparently). But that he was willing to make such a promise at all is fairly unique among the relationships shown, as Battler is pretty much the only person who ever offered to do something he didn't have to do and which didn't really benefit him in any way. Many would consider an act of that nature to be one of pure love, which is part of the reason I kind of hope he actually did remember in Prime.

But again, this never really got adequately developed so I don't know if that was even a theme anyone was supposed to be going with.
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Old 2012-06-11, 11:20   Link #1736
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I think George's case is more of a "possessive" kind of love. I don't think he actually craves for affection or at least that's not his main drive.

He wants Shannon to be his wife as part of a "great design" he has in mind. He constantly makes projects without actually asking Shannon's opinion, or without actually inquiring what are Shannon's dreams.

I might be biased but I think that "getting the girl" is all part of George's self realization projects. He wants to think of himself as a "winner", a popular guy an overachiever. And ironically it seems that in Rokkenjima prime he was actually seen as a good for nothing, a loser and a hikikomori.

Now don't misunderstand me, I think that George was pretty fond of Shannon, but on the same way a car freak would be fond of a supercar or a military otaku would be fond of his AK-47 high grade replica.
I agree that he has a possessive kind of love with Shannon. But I also think if having a trophy wife was George's only drive he'd be more agreeable in Eva's arranged marriage meetings. But that's just me.
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Old 2012-06-11, 12:23   Link #1737
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Well, part of George's thing is that he wants to break away from his parents and become his own man. So becoming married to someone who his mother arranged for him to meet is the exact opposite of that.

You could even say George's engagement to Shannon is primarily an act of rebellion against Eva and her vision for him.
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Old 2012-06-11, 12:34   Link #1738
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I think George's love may have had elements of possessiveness and for craving attention, especially early on in the relationship. But I am inclined to think that his love was genuine. Wasn't there that interview with Ryukishi where he said that if Shannon had told George the truth, she might have got an unexpected answer? She had been sure that if George found out about her physical condition/that she couldn't have kids/(possibly that she's originally male), that would be the end of their relationship. But it looks as if George would still have loved her and would have accepted the situation despite his plans for their future kids.

On the other hand, just because his love wouldn't be shaken by Shannon's secret doesn't mean that his love can't be seen as possessive or self-centered. He did seem inclined to boss her around and make a lot of plans without asking her opinion. (...And his image song is seriously creepy.)
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Old 2012-06-11, 13:24   Link #1739
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Well, part of George's thing is that he wants to break away from his parents and become his own man. So becoming married to someone who his mother arranged for him to meet is the exact opposite of that.

You could even say George's engagement to Shannon is primarily an act of rebellion against Eva and her vision for him.
I know. That's partly what I meant.

I think that if he just wanted have woman as a status symbol like a car. Any woman would do, but his actions shows it's more complicated than that.
  • He refuses his arranged suitors in the marriage meetings because he wants to find his partner with his own ability. And also as sort of rebellion against his parents. I don't think having his affections returned is taking the back seat either. He says about one of his arranged suitors that there was nothing going on between them.
  • I think George thinks that it's normal for someone to have a partner at his age. Hence why he was jealous of Battler before. His pride made him think he deserved a partner at that time.
  • Of course he also thinks beautiful wife = status symbol, because that's part of the Ushiromiya upringing.

I'm just saying it's probably more complicated than just wanting Shannon because she's pretty. But it's there.

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Old 2012-06-11, 14:14   Link #1740
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It could be also because he knew of the relationship between Shannon and Battler and envied them.

Well, I think he practically admitted that he envied Battler and that he tried to act like him. It wouldn't be strange if he tried to get the same girl. That doesn't mean it's just that, but it's probably what sparkled George's interest for Shannon and then year after year his feelings grew.
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