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View Poll Results: Fate/Zero - Episode 23 Rating
Perfect 10 95 67.38%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 33 23.40%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 8 5.67%
7 out of 10 : Good 3 2.13%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 0.71%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 0.71%
Voters: 141. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-06-11, 20:02   Link #161
Ithekro
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I'd rather see an non-Berserker Lancelot. He's pretty good as his is now (stronger with the Mad Enchant) but if he was clear headed and tactical?

From his sword I'd think he'd probably be a Saber...but given his name....a Lancer....with the luck that goes with it.
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Old 2012-06-11, 20:09   Link #162
ApathyEcstasy
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
I'd rather see an non-Berserker Lancelot. He's pretty good as his is now (stronger with the Mad Enchant) but if he was clear headed and tactical?

From his sword I'd think he'd probably be a Saber...but given his name....a Lancer....with the luck that goes with it.
I'd be happy with him as either a Saber or a Lancer. And with Kiritsugu as his master. He'd probably make a better Saber, since it appears that his original weapon is a sword.
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Old 2012-06-11, 20:14   Link #163
Doria
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Can someone familiar with the games explain the correlation between Mad Enhancement and the Berserker class? My assumption is that ME is a modifier that could be added to any class, but I don't know as that I've seen it applied except to the Berserker class (I believe that was also the case in FSN?).

Additionally, I take it from FSN, that it does not imply anything about the sanity of the Master? It's just an added synchronicity in this particular Grail War, given the Matou family magic?

Sorry for my ignorance if this is all really obvious. I've read the FZ novels and watched the FSN anime, but it wasn't 100% clear from those two (to me at least). Any clarification is appreciated. Thanks!
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Old 2012-06-11, 20:18   Link #164
GDB
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1) Berserker class only
2) Correct
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Old 2012-06-11, 20:40   Link #165
MartianMage
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Originally Posted by ApathyEcstasy View Post
You misunderstood. Essentially all I am saying is F--- Gilgamesh. I want to see Lancelot actually have a good master as he takes on Gilgamesh. Now THAT would be a fight to see. That whole spaceship vs fighter jet thing was stupid. I imagine that if Gilgamesh tried to use Enuma Elish on Lancelot, he would just gain control of it and turn it around on Gil.
Against serious Gil? Still going to end up as a curbstomp.
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Old 2012-06-11, 21:16   Link #166
ApathyEcstasy
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Originally Posted by MartianMage View Post
Against serious Gil? Still going to end up as a curbstomp.
If you believe that, then all the more reason to hate Gil. Near-omnipotent characters are f-ing YAAAAAAAAAAWN. It completely eliminates any excitement or tension.
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Old 2012-06-11, 21:17   Link #167
mAc Chaos
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Originally Posted by ApathyEcstasy View Post
If you believe that, then all the more reason to hate Gil. Near-omnipotent characters are f-ing YAAAAAAAAAAWN. Serious Nasu-fail.
Just think of him as a backdrop to make the other character's look awesome. That's why he's there.
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Old 2012-06-11, 22:03   Link #168
Ragna92
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Originally Posted by ApathyEcstasy View Post
If you believe that, then all the more reason to hate Gil. Near-omnipotent characters are f-ing YAAAAAAAAAAWN. It completely eliminates any excitement or tension.
But he rarely goes serious. Rider's unlucky that he's so great that even the king of heroes acknowledged him.
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Old 2012-06-11, 22:53   Link #169
LunarMoon
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Originally Posted by ApathyEcstasy View Post
TL;DR Arthur and Gilgamesh are the least interesting of all the servants in both F/SN and F/Z.

All the other servants and masters deserve far more screen time and character development.
I hear that a lot but I've never been able to understand why people think that Saber is uninteresting.
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Old 2012-06-11, 23:01   Link #170
ApathyEcstasy
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That's your opinion though. I find Gil to be the most interesting along with Iskandar. And it's not like Gil is near omnipotent. It's not like he can destroy galaxies.
He doesn't need to destroy galaxies in order to have a cakewalk with the holy grail war. That's the whole point. A character that has the power to make the holy grail war a cakewalk is just f-ing stupid. It trivializes the very contest that we are supposed to be invested in watching.
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Old 2012-06-11, 23:03   Link #171
Thess
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Originally Posted by ApathyEcstasy View Post
Tangentially, I think the whole "he loses in F/SN because of his own arrogance and pride" kind of explanation is nothing more than bad writing. It gives the wow factor of a near-omnipotent villain along with the attempt to explain away how a far-from-omnipotent protagonist can defeat him. It's like trying to have your cake and eat it too. It's just bad writing.

TL;DR Arthur and Gilgamesh are the least interesting of all the servants in both F/SN and F/Z.

All the other servants and masters deserve far more screen time and character development.
I said it in other forum threads, Nasu's writing of kings in FSN was appalling sometimes. He improved a lot with Extra Saber. In F/Z, you can easily picture Saber and Gilgamesh as regal figures.

About his losses, people don't take into account the main character dies more time than he survives.

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Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post
I hear that a lot but I've never been able to understand why people think that Saber is uninteresting.
The problem with Saber is that she's a lot more interesting in text than in screen. It's the same with Kiritsugu, Kariya or Kirei. There a lot of internal processes we miss because they aren't loud characters.
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Last edited by Klashikari; 2012-06-12 at 00:44.
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Old 2012-06-11, 23:09   Link #172
ApathyEcstasy
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Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post
I hear that a lot but I've never been able to understand why people think that Saber is uninteresting.
Read more novels and you'll eventually see examples of well-developed characters. The problem with Saber is that she is very "flat" and "2-D", in a manner of speaking.
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Old 2012-06-11, 23:32   Link #173
LunarMoon
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Read more novels and you'll eventually see examples of well-developed characters. The problem with Saber is that she is very "flat" and "2-D", in a manner of speaking.
I've read quite a few novels, thank you. How is Saber 2D?

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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
The problem with Saber is that she's a lot more interesting in text than in screen. It's the same with Kiritsugu, Kariya or Kirei. There a lot of internal processes we miss because they aren't loud characters.
That makes sense. I was beginning to think that it had to do with the disdain that many people have for "Lawful Good" characters and their tendency to root for villains. Something about them being unrelatable.
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Old 2012-06-11, 23:43   Link #174
Thess
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That makes sense. I was beginning to think that it had to do with the disdain that many people have for "Lawful Good" characters and their tendency to root for villains. Something about them being unrelatable.
Rider is good (essentially he's Neutral Good). I think the majority was rooting for him because Charisma A transcends the four wall. But he got what he really wanted.

May I express dissatisfaction with some bits of this episode (that I liked overall)?

1. It was never clear what was the meaning of Oceanus. How did he find it. You know the drill...
2. It's not clear that Waver-Rider aren't truly separated (unless they intent to address this in the last episode?).
3. Waver's sobs in the end? What? In the novels he sheds manly tears down the river which aren't of loneliness or regret.
4. Rider was skewered with Noble Phantasms. He laughed off the pain and kept going. Here they all magically miss him except for two? It takes a lot of the weight of his courage.
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Old 2012-06-11, 23:45   Link #175
mAc Chaos
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I think the Berserker half of the episode is what was more lacking for most people since nobody probably knew what was going on, if they weren't aware of the details of how it all went down.
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Old 2012-06-11, 23:48   Link #176
Thess
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I think the Berserker half of the episode is what was more lacking for most people since nobody probably knew what was going on, if they weren't aware of the details of how it all went down.
That too. I'm focusing on the Rider-Waver issues since they were the focus of this episode.

The pacing of the second season is really bad sometimes. I hope (in vain?) they'll fix it in the bluray.
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Old 2012-06-12, 00:00   Link #177
Ragna92
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Rider is good (essentially he's Neutral Good). I think the majority was rooting for him because Charisma A transcends the four wall. But he got what he really wanted.

May I express dissatisfaction with some bits of this episode (that I liked overall)?

1. It was never clear what was the meaning of Oceanus. How did he find it. You know the drill...
2. It's not clear that Waver-Rider aren't truly separated (unless they intent to address this in the last episode?).
3. Waver's sobs in the end? What? In the novels he sheds manly tears down the river which aren't of loneliness or regret.
4. Rider was skewered with Noble Phantasms. He laughed off the pain and kept going. Here they all magically miss him except for two? It takes a lot of the weight of his courage.
@ #4 That was one of my problems with this episode. I was like wth is going on every NP is missing. And then I read the scene in the LN and it said that Rider was skewered with NPS but he still continued to charge. I hope they fix it in the BDs.
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Old 2012-06-12, 00:04   Link #178
mAc Chaos
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I just figured Gilgamesh didn't care. He just carpet bombed the area until Rider got hit.
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Old 2012-06-12, 02:11   Link #179
Thess
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@ #4 That was one of my problems with this episode. I was like wth is going on every NP is missing. And then I read the scene in the LN and it said that Rider was skewered with NPS but he still continued to charge. I hope they fix it in the BDs.
His jogging was unintentionally hilarious like Kotomine's. It almost killed the solemn mood of the scene.

Going to post it in case people want to read it. Because it was really beautiful (but clearly difficult to portray):

Spoiler for Fate/Zero Novel Rider's charge:
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Old 2012-06-12, 02:32   Link #180
Kusa-San
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Originally Posted by ApathyEcstasy View Post
If you believe that, then all the more reason to hate Gil. Near-omnipotent characters are f-ing YAAAAAAAAAAWN. It completely eliminates any excitement or tension.
Gilgamesh is indeed the strongest charcater in FSN but in the nasuverse and against an Arcueid with her full capacity, Gil will probably lose.
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