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Old 2012-06-11, 01:15   Link #61
james0246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grey_1960 View Post
Law being singled out
Law's potential and his powers are no different from the Akoiji and Akianu who can change the landscape of an Island, White Beard power to sink Marine Ford or any other Island, Akoiji who can freeze whole oceans, Shiki who can make whole Islands float. Then you have Black Beard who has the quake fruit, Logia fruit, and still searching. What happens when he gets the perfect zoan fruit to complement his two other fruits? What if Enel comes back and has king haki, and armor haki in his arsenal? What if Big Mama and Kaidou have powerful devil fruits like White Beards? My deal is there are tons of fighters with the same potential if not more, but Law is the one getting scrutinized about his powers being too much.
I always comment on characters that I believe have overpowered abilities (though I don't think the Darkness fruit is necessarily overpowered). I've had several discussions on this forum over other fruits that I think are overpowered (most notably, Kuma's Paw Paw fruit). So, it is not like my analysis of Ope Ope is without precedent.

That being said, there are many powers out there that can destroy large portions of the planet. There is no debate over that issue. The problem with Ope Ope is that it is creates an area in which the character can become a demi-god with seemingly no limits (unlike most other DF powers (Whitebeard's Quake fruit was also overpowered, but it was at least described as having the ability to destroy the planet, so there were no surprises )). It has no real weakness (besides Haki, and since Law can also utilize Haki, he can neutralize his opponents Haki thus eliminating the weakness from most opponents), and can seemingly be used anywhere at anytime (save for, presumably, under water). In terms of offense and defense, it is almost perfect (since it can control everything within the space), and when you add Haki it becomes even more powerful (and increasing it's range makes it even more powerful as well).

This is why I wondered if, and hoped that, the fruit would have a natural weakness that we do not know about yet. Small One is correct in that we haven't seen Law killing anyone yet, so it is possible that the fruit does not allow death (though, this could also just be Law (since he is a doctor), or Oda could have simply decided not to show him killing anyone on screen), which would be a pretty important weakness/limit.
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Old 2012-06-11, 02:23   Link #62
golgo13
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Law's power will seem over powered until he gets pwned. This seems to happen with many new powers we see, even the fight between smoker and law it wasn't obvious smoker could lose initially.

It's the battle between powers and the unique consequences of abilities that make one piece so awesome.

Small example to counter law, who says that even a character like alvida couldn't make the room or law simply slip away during battle..

Seems like if the character is fast, can jump or dig, or even enclose themselves they can escape the room. Haki powered sword may even slice it.
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Old 2012-06-11, 02:36   Link #63
grey_1960
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C.A.
Sorry if I ruined your discussion but when I responded to james0246, it sounded like it was Law's abilities but also including haki and everything else. My response was to James0246 Link #29 and Marvel B #Link 31 page 2 of the forum. I thought you were responding to the same thing. I get confused sometimes on where the boundaries of the arguments are or who is arguing what.

Room for the World?
Finally on Law's power, the only way I see it truly as a threat is if Law can put the whole earth in a room. That would be something to see. But Laws power hinges on if he is a strong fighter. If someone steps in side his room and is equally or stronger then I don't see that room is beneficial. Another question, if the Vice Admiral Smoker learns that Law and Luffy have an alliance and reports it to his superiors, does that mean the WG will revoke Laws Shichibukai status?
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Old 2012-06-11, 02:43   Link #64
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Law's DF looks overpowered because we assumed his weakness would be Buggy's DF and Logias, but Law showed that he can simply take their heart and win this way. (Like Doflamingo. If his DF (or whatever power it is, it probably is a DF) showed to work against Logias, too, I wouldn't be able to think of a counter against it and say it's overpowered, too)

Robin's DF might be a good counter, as long as she isn't inside of his room. Other than that I don't see anyone else having an effective counter that is not seastone or Haki.

It kinda didn't make sense that Smoker passed out after Law took his heart, because Law's DF shouldn't affect the body. Also he should be able to turn his heart into smoke and just return to the body, like any other body part Law would cut with his ability. I wonder if that glasslike cube Smoker's heart is in is part of Law's ability or something else.
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Old 2012-06-11, 02:58   Link #65
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@grey_1960:

Actually we pretty much have the same opinions, just that we are arguing in a different direction. I would agree with some of your points, just that your argument is not on the Devil Fruit abilities alone.

My views are most similar to jame0246's, prior to The Small One's idea that Law may not be able to kill, that Ope Ope ability's only weakness could be is casting speed and range, which Law had improved through mastery over the ability.

Earlier on I also mentioned that I think the strongest Devil Fruit users would cover their abilities weakness through their skill and Haki. At the highest level of fighting, its more a contest of Haki and strength rather than abilities. The abilities are just weapons and fighting styles for them to channel their Haki and power.
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Old 2012-06-11, 10:25   Link #66
marvelB
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Originally Posted by The Small One View Post
Well, we don't know, if he can really do "anything he wants". So far it looks like he isn't able to kill people inside of his room.
All the people he slices up survive (in different pieces), and the marines are also still alive. Technically he has no reason to let them alive and only take away their phones. And why did he only remove Smoker's heart instead of trying to kill him instantly?
To me it looks like killing is not possible inside the room. (Which would make sense, if we take it as a doctor's ability)

While you certainly do make a good point and all, I rather doubt that Law would be known as the Surgeon of Death if he didn't at least kill some of his enemies.



As far as the whole "overpowered abilities" things goes, I don't really have anything else to say about Law or Kuma's powers, but one particular power that always kinda bugged me was Califa's soap bubble fruit. So..... apparently, she can make people so squeaky clean that they're weakened and can't move properly and..... what?? I mean, at least Hancock's power actually made more sense (even if that's also a broken ability, IMO). Califa's power feels more like a stand ability from Jojo than anything.....
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Old 2012-06-11, 13:06   Link #67
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Jouten View Post
It kinda didn't make sense that Smoker passed out after Law took his heart, because Law's DF shouldn't affect the body. Also he should be able to turn his heart into smoke and just return to the body, like any other body part Law would cut with his ability. I wonder if that glasslike cube Smoker's heart is in is part of Law's ability or something else.
yea I thought law's ability wouldn't work on smoker too. anyone with the ability to turn their body into a gas or liquid should be able to counter Law's ability (as long as they fought alone and didn't get subject to mind transfer) but apparently that is not the case and Law can solidify part of their bodies if he wishes which so far I am not a fan of.

it seems that the best counter to law would be a long range fighter like kizuru or kidd using some sort of mechanical weapon with many moving parts, but it would have to either be a surprise attack or capable of being disassembled and still be functional. no matter what, it's clearly one of the most powerful and versatile DF abilities in the series. but as you guys have been saying, a characters power comes down to more than just DF ability, which is why law fears to take on an emperor on his own
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Old 2012-06-11, 13:33   Link #68
The Small One
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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
While you certainly do make a good point and all, I rather doubt that Law would be known as the Surgeon of Death if he didn't at least kill some of his enemies.
I didn't say that he doesn't kill. I just say, that we haven't seen him use his DF power to kill anyone.
His nickname implies, that he usually isn't really reluctant with his enemies. So why did he let the marines alive? My guess is, that his ability doesn't allow him to kill anyone inside of his room. So he can only use this power to immobilize and handicap the enemies and has to kill them afterwards the "usual" way.
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Old 2012-06-11, 14:04   Link #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I always comment on characters that I believe have overpowered abilities (though I don't think the Darkness fruit is necessarily overpowered). I've had several discussions on this forum over other fruits that I think are overpowered (most notably, Kuma's Paw Paw fruit). So, it is not like my analysis of Ope Ope is without precedent.

That being said, there are many powers out there that can destroy large portions of the planet. There is no debate over that issue. The problem with Ope Ope is that it is creates an area in which the character can become a demi-god with seemingly no limits (unlike most other DF powers (Whitebeard's Quake fruit was also overpowered, but it was at least described as having the ability to destroy the planet, so there were no surprises )). It has no real weakness (besides Haki, and since Law can also utilize Haki, he can neutralize his opponents Haki thus eliminating the weakness from most opponents), and can seemingly be used anywhere at anytime (save for, presumably, under water). In terms of offense and defense, it is almost perfect (since it can control everything within the space), and when you add Haki it becomes even more powerful (and increasing it's range makes it even more powerful as well).
Three things
1. What if the yami yami no mi is the reason for the absorption of other DFs?
2. How can law neutralize his opponents haki?
3. How do you know that you can add haki into the opeope fruit? what exactly is there to enhance with armor haki? i can see that work on melee or projectile attacks, but how is that supposed to apply on the ability to rearrange things in a room?
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Old 2012-06-11, 14:37   Link #70
james0246
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Originally Posted by Divine Punisher View Post
Three things
1. What if the yami yami no mi is the reason for the absorption of other DFs?
If that is the case, then I agree it would be overpowered (I'm generally of the opinion that the dual wielding is more from Blackbeard rather than the fruit). Otherwise, it seems pretty clear cut (even if its natural weaknesses isn't quite revealed).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Divine Punisher View Post
2. How can law neutralize his opponents haki?
By using his own Haki. He could almost completely nullify his opponents Haki if Law's Haki is superior, or he could neutralize the Haki if their 'will' is equal, or he could fail if his opponent's Haki is superior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Divine Punisher View Post
3. How do you know that you can add haki into the opeope fruit? what exactly is there to enhance with armor haki? i can see that work on melee or projectile attacks, but how is that supposed to apply on the ability to rearrange things in a room?
Haki is in everything. Consequently, it can and will be used in every action a character takes, whether it be overt (like grabbing a Logia) or not. That being said, a basic use of Kenbunshoku Haki would greatly improve Law's power of what happens in his rooms.
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Old 2012-06-11, 14:53   Link #71
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^ see thats what i mean. how is haki supposed to improve laws power? what kind of enhancement is there coming from haki, besides hardening an attack against your opponent? and on which of laws DF powers is it exactly supposed to apply on? for all we know, haki is not really combinable with every DF.
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Old 2012-06-11, 17:56   Link #72
james0246
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Originally Posted by Divine Punisher View Post
^ see thats what i mean. how is haki supposed to improve laws power? what kind of enhancement is there coming from haki, besides hardening an attack against your opponent? and on which of laws DF powers is it exactly supposed to apply on? for all we know, haki is not really combinable with every DF.
Everyone (in the One Piece universe) has some form/amount of Haki. Most can't use it or even sense it, but they all have it. And, since Oda has never revealed any reason to believe anyone couldn't use a DF (besides already possessing the abilities of one), that means everyone who has ever eaten a DF has Haki and, in some form or another, they are always using Haki in conjunction with their DF.

(To speculate on specific techniques, the Scan technique can probably be improved with Haki, and I wouldn't be surprised if Haki is used (or can be used) with the Mes technique (especially when fighting Logia users).)
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Old 2012-06-12, 05:08   Link #73
ronin myael
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i am often amazed by the kind of discussions in this thread and i mean that as a good thing.

Quote:
but one particular power that always kinda bugged me was Califa's soap bubble fruit. So..... apparently, she can make people so squeaky clean that they're weakened and can't move properly and..... what?? I mean, at least Hancock's power actually made more sense (even if that's also a broken ability, IMO). Califa's power feels more like a stand ability from Jojo than anything.....
what about alvida's sube sube no mi? what kind of a DF power is that?

as for law's ability, while i agree that it is overpowered and there is no known weakness, i believe that he will encounter someone who has the ability to defeat his. we know very little of the extent of law's powers. we've only seen him fight just once. within his room he is god but what if he is vulnerable when attacked from the outside? battles aren't just decided by abilities or skills, smarts and the right circumstances are big factors too, not to mention the right match-ups.
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Old 2012-06-12, 15:09   Link #74
marvelB
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what about alvida's sube sube no mi? what kind of a DF power is that?

Alvida's ability makes her smooth and slippery. Nothing confusing about that. In fact, upon further reflection her power is pretty similar to the results of being cleansed by Califa's power, minus the whole weakening thing. At the very least, Alvida's power actually DOES make some freaking sense.




Oh, and the usual reminder that the next thread will be here early tomorrow morning, etc.....


UPDATE: And the thread is here!

Last edited by marvelB; 2012-06-13 at 03:11.
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