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Old 2012-06-14, 07:29   Link #9421
Qilin
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Originally Posted by Kurosu View Post
If you have a better way to kill Emukae and then not kill her, I'd like to hear it.
Not saying he should have done it differently. I just said it was a deus ex machina by virtue of the concept's definition and usage.
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Old 2012-06-14, 07:40   Link #9422
Wolfenstein
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Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
Well, having read the chapter, I don't see what the hate is all about.

You can hardly deny that Emukae got her precious character development here. I mean, if that's the sole base of the complaints, then I really can't agree. This chapter built up her character much more elaborately than any that I remember
It's not as if she did or did not get, It's that her character development wasn't, well, good. I still can't believe Nishio is trying to shove the 'Medaka is so purrfect' rhetoric down everyone's throats. Heh. Even off-panel she can ruin the manga, I'm honestly impressed.

Like I said, this chapter could've been good, but certain writting mistakes had it flushing down.

And people seriously can't want Kumagawa back this badly at the cost of some pretty bad writting, not even I want that.
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Old 2012-06-14, 07:44   Link #9423
Soji
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And people seriously can't want Kumagawa back this badly at the cost of some pretty bad writting, not even I want that.
Trust me they do.Hell I read post that say that now we talking about or thing like that. For some people this is the best thing that can happen.
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Old 2012-06-14, 07:45   Link #9424
Kurosu
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
It's not as if she did or did not get, It's that her character development wasn't, well, good. I still can't believe Nishio is trying to shove down the 'Medaka is so purrfect' rhetoric down everyone's throats. Heh. Even off-panel she can ruin the manga, I'm honestly impressed.

Like I said, this chapter could've been good, but certain writting mistakes had it flushing down.

And people seriously can't want Kumagawa back this badly at the cost of some pretty bad writting, not even I want that.
The thing is, I think it's less about people wanting Kumagawa to be back, and more about how important he is to Emukae should she want to get any development. Don't you think Kumagawa is important to Emukae's development? Regardless of how he got here, I'm almost certain he had to be involved in some capacity, since he represents her minus side. If Emukae were to get any development, it would have to do with the fact that she's a minus in relation to something else. Her pursuit of happiness is in direct opposition to her nature as a minus, so... and with all the minus talk, Kumagawa would have to be involved in some way.

You seem to be implying there's literally no reason Kumagawa should be here, and that he contributes nothing to the current story other than his appearance, which I vehemently disagree with.
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Old 2012-06-14, 07:51   Link #9425
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To each his own, I guess. Kumagawa isn't the only character I like, and I'm pretty pissed off not only at how how Nishio's quickly eliminating all the tension and mystery of what happened to the other Jokers, but how Kumagawa's return was just so untimely and bad.

The chapter was doing very good for the first pages. Great art, Student Council getting the blinking lights kicked out of them(I'm ignoring the obviously artificial 'Your Minus dosen't work on me cause ima Suitor' thing until the next chapter), it was pretty good.

Until Nishio got to what he considered development and the end. That's where it all crashed down.

Edit: At the above post, they already did that in the Treasurer battle. This development should've been something actually different and not something Emukae had already surpassed, which would be those Minus feelings you're referring to.

Instead what we got was something genuinely close to character regression, more 'medaka is perfect' rhetoric, and a timely, but ultimately bad, intervention by Misogi-chan. not what I'd consider 'good writting'.

If, for example, she surpassed her insecurities in regards to her words by deciding she wasn't going to give up on herself and her dreams so easily because her friends wouldn't want her to, that's what I could call some 'good development'.
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Old 2012-06-14, 08:01   Link #9426
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
Edit: At the above post, they already did that in the Treasurer battle. This development should've been something actually different and not something Emukae had already surpassed, which would be those Minus feelings you're referring to.

Instead what we got was something genuinely close to character regression, more 'medaka is perfect' rhetoric, and a timely, but ultimately bad, intervention by Misogi-chan. not what I'd consider 'good writting'.

If, for example, she surpassed her insecurities in regards to her words by deciding she wasn't going to give up on herself and her dreams so easily because her friends wouldn't want her to, that's what I could call some 'good development'.
Incorrect, she never passed her insecurities. The situation is different from before in the treasurer battle. This has less to do about acceptance of herself, and more about her romantic feels towards Zenkichi and the baggage that seems to come with it. It's different because before she needed to convince herself that she mattered, that she needed to live and not die in her twisted vision of the world.

At this point she's conflicted over her purpose for joining the student council and how she feels for Zenkichi over Zenkichi's own happiness of wanting to be with Medaka. It's an evolution of the development of last time, when she wanted to find some usefulness in her.
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Old 2012-06-14, 08:16   Link #9427
Sarun
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I think a good explanation why Kumogawa was there/Kumogawa showed up would go some way in redeeming this chapter to some people.
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Old 2012-06-14, 08:26   Link #9428
Sol Falling
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It's not even about having Kumagawa back. It's just about moving the plot forward:

- where the hell are the Hakoniwa Jokers? Welp, here's one of them, and he's acting with unclear intentions and unusually. Shiranui or Tsurubami or Ajimu's appearance would have been just as welcome in this regard.
- how the hell did the Suitors deal with them? Welp, here's the strongest Suitor, whose ability we are building up towards. Also, the fact that she is crushing the Student Council is exactly what should've been expected to keep the story logically consistent and understandable.

These two developments alone already make this chapter the best one to have come out of this arc in months. Zenkichi's group set out in the first place to answer this mystery (why are Medaka and the others missing?), now we're finally getting answers.

Then we indeed do have the issue of Emukae's character focus and development--which she friggin' got a lot of this chapter! The whole chapter is practically about her, minus the beginning part with Zenkichi's dream about Medaka, and the last page with Kumagawa's entrance. The exposition across almost the majority of the chapter focused on Emukae's growth and determination and blossoming Plus nature--to the extent that she decided to join the Student Council, decided to fight to help Zenkichi, decided even to confess and to use her life to gain information on Kugurugi. Calling Emukae's development "character regression" when she struggles a bit after facing a major setback (despite all of the rest of that stuff) is plainly ridiculous. Bottom line: you don't lose the pain of being a Minus that easily.

How the fuck was this chapter "bad writing"? Jesus christ.
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Old 2012-06-14, 08:33   Link #9429
Sarun
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I think it is probably that some people maybe kindah (unconsciously) assumed/hoped/expected that could get to see Emukae get a victory and since that was wide of the mark, it might have played into the feeling of disappointment.

Now that Kumogawa is back, hopefully it would be explained why (no, it should be rather how) he got back.
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Old 2012-06-14, 08:35   Link #9430
Alpha Knight
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I believe I could not have said that better. Besides, expecting a victory of Emukae against the strongest suitor is hilarious albeit ridiculous.
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Old 2012-06-14, 08:39   Link #9431
Sarun
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I did ask this before but I still hope for an answer.

Would the results of a popularity poll be released next week or is that they are announcing that there is gonna be a new popularity poll?
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Old 2012-06-14, 08:46   Link #9432
Sol Falling
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It'll just be the announcement of the poll, I don't believe they could have results yet.
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Old 2012-06-14, 08:52   Link #9433
orangejuicetang
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Mhmm, actually rereading this chapter, I felt like the kuruguri suitor girl actually had a surprisingly number of similarities to Kumagawa. Well the most obvious one was the use of screwdrivers, when I saw that page I immediately thought 'this reminds me of Kumagawa'. But there was also the 'that would work, if that was a manga!' line which is quite Kumagawa-like. Also, the 'I haven't even used my style yet' thing once again reminded me of Kumagawa's line versus the new suitors about 'using All-Fiction in battle, was something I never ever thought about doing'. Just something I found interesting.

*Oh right, also the 'I'll forgive you if you apologize now' line.
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Old 2012-06-14, 08:55   Link #9434
Sarun
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Someone brought this up elsewhere, it is quite interesting that Zenkichi now remembers that Medaka said something to him which he can't remember now when they were 2. How do you think before he finds out the missing info? Would he figures out/remembers it himself or would there be outside help?
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Old 2012-06-14, 09:05   Link #9435
Alpha Knight
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Someone brought this up elsewhere, it is quite interesting that Zenkichi now remembers that Medaka said something to him which he can't remember now when they were 2. How do you think before he finds out the missing info? Would he figures out/remembers it himself or would there be outside help?
He not being able to recall that line gives amunition to the Zenkichi x Emukae shippers.
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Old 2012-06-14, 09:08   Link #9436
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I think there is some hope for Zen X Emukae shipping in next chapter since Emukae kindah confessed this chapter. Maybe let Kumogawa battle for a while and get his ass kicked while Zen and Emukae have their moment. And then and rest of Student Council can regroup to fight Suitor #1 once more.
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Old 2012-06-14, 09:29   Link #9437
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
Yep. It's a classic deus ex machina, but why is that still a problem at this point?

Nisio practically deals these things on a regular basis in this series. I thought that this manga's point was to play around with these tropes and narrative constructs that define the shounen battle genre. Isn't that the case?

I'd just keep reading though. If there's one thing I've learned, hardly anything is played straight when it comes to this manga.
The issue is does the series really do that anymore. Back when it was somewhat self aware that it was a manga then you could argue it was, but it's no longer self aware with the end of Aijimu's arc and the ability devil style in itself was supposed prevent these occurences from happening.

Currently it's not even mocking shounens it simply is a bad shounen. Ass pulls and a basic lack of logic included.
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Old 2012-06-14, 09:39   Link #9438
Soji
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
The issue is does the series really do that anymore. Back when it was somewhat self aware that it was a manga then you could argue it was, but it's no longer self aware with the end of Aijimu's arc and the ability devil style in itself was supposed prevent these occurences from happening.

Currently it's not even mocking shounens it simply is a bad shounen. Ass pulls and a basic lack of logic included.
Now that you mention it. How the author will explain this? I mean ,like you say Devil style was suppose to prevent thing like this
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Old 2012-06-14, 09:50   Link #9439
Sol Falling
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How the fuck is Kumagawa appearing an asspull. Zenkichi's group are chasing after the Jokers --> it's an asspull for a Joker to show up? You don't even know what the hell happened to them, how could you conclude that it's unlikely for one of them to be in that area?

Introduction of the "Devil Style" concept sure has opened the floodgates for a ton of poorly conceived low-level speculation and "analysis". Fucking hell guys, just like Kurusu-Shirudo said, you can just have your faces rubbed in when Kumagawa's appearance is fully explained in the next chapter.
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Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 28/5 :: Locodol 50/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Sabagebu 28/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
Fall: Sora no Method 21/5 :: Karen Senki 6/5 :: Cross Ange 1/5 :: Shirobako 22/5 :: Yuuki Yuuna 23/5 :: Mushishi S2 100/5
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Sonohana twitter follow campaign: mikajyo_info :: rewards (anime adaptation if they reach 50000!!)
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Old 2012-06-14, 09:58   Link #9440
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
How the fuck is Kumagawa appearing an asspull. Zenkichi's group are chasing after the Jokers --> it's an asspull for a Joker to show up? You don't even know what the hell happened to them, how could you conclude that it's unlikely for one of them to be in that area?

Introduction of the "Devil Style" concept sure has opened the floodgates for a ton of poorly conceived low-level speculation and "analysis". Fucking hell guys, just like Kurusu-Shirudo said, you can just have your faces rubbed in when Kumagawa's appearance is fully explained in the next chapter.
He could have been hiding underground with a trap door right beneath the scene of the crime, the likelihood of that specific person being left behind at that specific time makes it an ass pull. Any one of the jokers could have been left been anywhere. The fact the author will need to go through some elaborate story as to why he and only he was left at that point pretty much screams ass pull.

The point of an ass pull isn't that something is impossible, it's that in real life the likelihood of such a thing happening on a such a consistent basis as it normally does in shounens is extremely small. Basically in real life Emukae would have probably died even if such a person like Kumagawa existed, because all the circumstances that alligned to save her would have been quite unlikely.
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