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Old 2012-06-14, 10:00   Link #9441
K. Shiruto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
How the fuck is Kumagawa appearing an asspull. Zenkichi's group are chasing after the Jokers --> it's an asspull for a Joker to show up? You don't even know what the hell happened to them, how could you conclude that it's unlikely for one of them to be in that area?

Introduction of the "Devil Style" concept sure has opened the floodgates for a ton of poorly conceived low-level speculation and "analysis". Fucking hell guys, just like Kurusu-Shirudo said, you can just have your faces rubbed in when Kumagawa's appearance is fully explained in the next chapter.
Even if someone will still not like it no matter the reasons.

Also, how exactly Devil Style should have prevented that? If anything Devil Style didn't allow the Student Council to defeat the suitor by fate or luck. Kumagawa has nothing to do with that, if a person happens to be there, eventually will step forward when things start to look grim.
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Old 2012-06-14, 10:08   Link #9442
Tenchi Hou Take
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Narratively it's not difficult to explain a lot of things retrospectively, with a mediocum of intelligience and creatively, it's the likelihood of those series of events conspiring to occur that all alligned in one specific way and at one specific time, of which such an occurance happening is very unlikely.

Why was Kumagawa of all jokers left there, why was he still there at that time, why did none of the student council see him. It's not difficult to answer these questions if your given free reign of creativity it's the likelihood of whatever you come up with actually happening in comparison to the dozens of other solutions.

There's a natural progression of events where certain situations benefit some people and others don't, and then there's a long line of coincidences alligning to bring about a certain event. Ass pulls fall into the later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurusu-Shirudo View Post
Even if someone will still not like it no matter the reasons.

Also, how exactly Devil Style should have prevented that? If anything Devil Style didn't allow the Student Council to defeat the suitor by fate or luck. Kumagawa has nothing to do with that, if a person happens to be there, eventually will step forward when things start to look grim.
It's the long line of coincidences that alligned to bring about a certain (usefull positive) event is what Devil style was supposed to prevent.
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Old 2012-06-14, 10:14   Link #9443
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
He could have been hiding underground with a trap door right beneath the scene of the crime, the likelihood of that specific person being left behind at that specific time makes it an ass pull. Any one of the jokers could have been left been anywhere. The fact the author will need to go through some elaborate story as to why he and only he was left at that point pretty much screams ass pull.

The point of an ass pull isn't that something is impossible, it's that in real life the likelihood of such a thing happening on a such a consistent basis as it normally does in shounens is extremely small. Basically in real life Emukae would have probably died even if such a person like Kumagawa existed, because all the circumstances that alligned to save her would have been quite unlikely.
Why are you bringing up shit like trap doors? Kumagawa watching over the battle --> Kumagawa sees Emukae about to get screwdrivered --> Kumagawa walks over to her while everyone's absorbed in the battle.

What sort of imaginary "circumstances" are you conjuring up for Kumagawa not to be there? No suggestion has been made yet that the Jokers are in anyway held up or incapacitated. In "real life" the Jokers would probably be watching over the activities of the Suitors. By extension its reasonable for them to realize Zen's group is in pursuit. If there was a probability that Kumagawa was anywhere at all, then around Zen's group is actually one of the most likely "realistic" possibilities.
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Old 2012-06-14, 10:15   Link #9444
K. Shiruto
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Then just wait till next week yo get answers.

But about the later, if we go by that same logic, DS should have avoided Medaka stopping Najimi from killing herself too.

No, it's not that. Fate has little to do with Kumagawa getting in the way. What matters is, he was there, we don't know for which reason, but he's in that place.

In addition, while all this was happening, Zenkichi and his companions were waging an aerial battle. Devil Style doesn't affect those who aren't around him and thus explains why Kumagawa is there.

Also, if you saw one of your loved ones was on the verge of death, wouldn't you step forward and trie to save the life of that person? I would. DS has nothing to do with what happened during the last pages of the chapter.

That's all. I won't bother talking about the issue anymore.
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Old 2012-06-14, 10:19   Link #9445
Sarun
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It could be likely that Jokers weren't really captured or put in cell. They probably didn't feel to tag along when the Jet Black Wedding moved to next place in such a hurry.

We probably could see Hanten, Hansode and Ajimu around too in the next chapter. It could be that those 3 were unlikely to step in to see save Emukae so we didn't see them this chapter.
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Old 2012-06-14, 10:20   Link #9446
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Why was Kumagawa of all jokers left there, why was he still there at that time, why did none of the student council see him. It's not difficult to answer these questions if your given free reign of creativity it's the likelihood of whatever you come up with actually happening in comparison to the dozens of other solutions.
How do you know all of the other Jokers aren't there either? How do you know the Jokers weren't purposely keeping tabs on their "rescuers" from the academy? How do you know if the Jokers might not want to reveal themselves? All of that is completely plausible given our current level of information.

Quote:
There's a natural progression of events where certain situations benefit some people and others don't, and then there's a long line of coincidences alligning to bring about a certain event. Ass pulls fall into the later.
And your baseless assumption is that there aren't actual benefits and motivations for Kumagawa being there? Devil Style prevents convenient coincidences, but there has been zero suggestion yet that Kumagawa's appearance is actually a coincidence. How'd you even come up with that?
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Old 2012-06-14, 10:23   Link #9447
Sarun
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I am interested in how the suitors were defeated so far. And isn't Sui not defeated at all?
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Old 2012-06-14, 10:25   Link #9448
Tenchi Hou Take
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurusu-Shirudo View Post
Then just wait till next week yo get answers.

But about the later, if we go by that same logic, DS should have avoided Medaka stopping Najimi from killing herself too.

No, it's not that. Fate has little to do with Kumagawa getting in the way. What matters is, he was there, we don't know for which reason, but he's in that place.

In addition, while all this was happening, Zenkichi and his companions were waging an aerial battle. Devil Style doesn't affect those who aren't around him and thus explains why Kumagawa is there.

Also, if you saw one of your loved ones was on the verge of death, wouldn't you step forward and trie to save the life of that person? I would. DS has nothing to do with what happened during the last pages of the chapter.

That's all. I won't bother talking about the issue anymore.
Devil style occurs around Zenkichi that's what it's supposed to do (hell it had a pretty large range considering the festival) it clearly doesn't do this so arguing about other times devil style failed doesn't help your point it simply means devil style doesn't work, or at least only in the certain instances the author wants it to work rather than how it should work going by it's description (which is what normally happens in works with pretty bad writing).

It's not about Kumagawa seeing Emukae and helping her, it's about why Kumagawa was the only one left behind stayed around the base for a good week and was conviently not seen by the student council when they searched around but then got their just in the nick of time to prevent Emukae from dying in a dramatic fashion in front of everyone (he didn't even save her long after the battle was over with her body moved somewhere else or left there, it was during the battle).

Sure you could make up some random ass reason that may even make sense to some degree, it doesn't make such an occurence likely. Just because it's possibe for me to roll a 1 10 times in a row doesn't mean there's a remotely decent chance I will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
How do you know all of the other Jokers aren't there either? How do you know the Jokers weren't purposely keeping tabs on their "rescuers" from the academy? How do you know if the Jokers might not want to reveal themselves? All of that is completely plausible given our current level of information.



And your baseless assumption is that there aren't actual benefits and motivations for Kumagawa being there? Devil Style prevents convenient coincidences, but there has been zero suggestion yet that Kumagawa's appearance is actually a coincidence. How'd you even come up with that?
My arguement is clearly in comprehensivable to you there's probably no point in me explaining it again but I will. It's not about what's possible it's about the likelihood of something being possible. Even right now I can think of several sets of coincidences that might allign to cause Kumagawa being there at the moment in time several days after the event while not being seen. The likelihood of those coincidences alligning to cause that is small. You can do it to explain most things hell most authors do this to explain borderline or actual ass pull occurences.

Just because it's possible to roll 5, 10 times in a row doesn't mean the chance of that happening isn't ridculously small. The mere fact Nisio would have to use a long line of coincidences to explain this is what makes it an ass pull, which is ironically what devil style was supposed to prevent.
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Old 2012-06-14, 10:33   Link #9449
K. Shiruto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
It's not about Kumagawa seeing Emukae and helping her, it's about why Kumagawa was the only one left behind stayed around the base for a good week and was conviently not seen by the student council when they searched around but then got their just in the nick of time to prevent Emukae from dying in a dramatic fashion in front of everyone (he didn't even save her long after the battle was over with her body moved somewhere else or left there, it was during the battle).
Excuse me? When was it said Kumagawa stayed in the South Pole an entire week? From what I recall they had been there for a few hours only.

But that's meaningless. Look, just wait till next week, kai? Because if you really think Nisio who plans ahead doesn't already know the reasons for why Kumagawa was left behind...

Boy, this is such a pain, why is so easy for people to jump the bandwagon.
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Old 2012-06-14, 10:34   Link #9450
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Devil style occurs around Zenkichi that's what it's supposed to do (hell it had a pretty large range considering the festival) it clearly doesn't do this so arguing about other times devil style failed doesn't help your point it simply means devil style doesn't work, or at least only in the certain instances the author wants it to work rather than how it should work going by it's description (which is what normally happens in works with pretty bad writing).

It's not about Kumagawa seeing Emukae and helping her, it's about why Kumagawa was the only one left behind stayed around the base for a good week and was conviently not seen by the student council when they searched around but then got their just in the nick of time to prevent Emukae from dying in a dramatic fashion in front of everyone (he didn't even save her long after the battle was over with her body moved somewhere else or left there, it was during the battle).

Sure you could make up some random ass reason that may even make sense to some degree, it doesn't make such an occurence likely. Just because it's possibe for me to roll a 1 10 times in a row doesn't mean there's a remotely decent chance I will.
The entire Suitor party just left that very base mere hours ago. In a rush and specifically because the Student Council party was arriving. How is it a stretch that there are a couple people still hanging around there? If you're talking about why no one saw Kumagawa while they were exploring, how about the Suitor who took apart their freakin' jetplane? Face it, all of your supposed "unlikelihoods" are entirely imaginary and haven't remotely been suggested in the story.
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Old 2012-06-14, 10:38   Link #9451
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
The entire Suitor party just left that very base mere hours ago. How is it a stretch that there are a couple people still hanging around there? If you're talking about why no one saw Kumagawa while they were exploring, how about the Suitor who took apart their freakin' jetplane? Face it, all of your supposed "unlikelihoods" are entirely imaginary and haven't remotely been suggested in the story.
He's been there a while. Your not helping your point simply pointing out different inconsistencies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurusu-Shirudo View Post
Excuse me? When was it said Kumagawa stayed in the South Pole an entire week? From what I recall they had been there for a few hours only.

But that's meaningless. Look, just wait till next week, kai? Because if you really think Nisio who plans ahead doesn't already know the reasons for why Kumagawa was left behind...

Boy, this is such a pain, why is so easy for people to jump the bandwagon.
We don't know how long they were there, all we know was that they left a few hours ago and that the Jokers had been missing a week.

Anyone can make up reason for Kumagawa being left behind. I have several they're just unlikely.

There's at least 5 consideneces that must allign for Kumagawa to be there at that point in time to make that event occur. So many coincidences alligning is simply very unlikely.
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Old 2012-06-14, 10:38   Link #9452
K. Shiruto
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Btw, Kumagawa's All Fiction is much weaker now, remember? Najimi said it has certain limits.
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Old 2012-06-14, 10:40   Link #9453
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
He's been there a while.
That sure sounds like a massive assumption.
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Old 2012-06-14, 10:45   Link #9454
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
That sure sounds like a massive assumption.
We don't know how long he was there's anything from a week to a few hours THAT'S THE POINT. It's another coincidence in a long line that just so happened to allow Kumagawa to achieve this event. You just don't seem to get that several coincidences HAD to allign to cause this event to happen such a thing occuring is by probabilties very definition unlikely.

The irony in all this is that Nisio created an in story plot device to prevent precisely this from happening.
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Old 2012-06-14, 10:51   Link #9455
Sol Falling
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The suitors were holed up at the base till just a couple hours ago doing their Wedding Feast thing. We know the Jokers' absence has some connection to the Suitors. How the fuck is Kumagawa being around the base a "coincidence"? Where the hell else would he be?
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Old 2012-06-14, 10:52   Link #9456
K. Shiruto
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Not a coincidence but a logical progression of the events. Think about it a little, the bunny girl told Medaka Zen was coming there, so what do you think she would do in that case? If I were her, I would dispatch someone in order to make sure no one will get in their way.

Kumagawa is most likely there by direct request of Medaka, nothing more and nothing less. And against that Devil Style can't do shit. It would be fate if Medaka didn't know about the Student Council moving there and told Kumagawa to stay behind even without that info, but since she was told...
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Old 2012-06-14, 10:57   Link #9457
Tenchi Hou Take
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
The suitors were holed up at the base till just a couple hours ago doing their Wedding Feast thing. We know the Jokers' absence has some connection to the Suitors. How the fuck is Kumagawa being around the base a "coincidence"? Where the hell else would he be?
Why did he stay at the base, you could make up some reason why he did you easily make up a reason why he would want to leave the base and find some way to get back home or somewhere else, it's not like he could die of starvation. It's a coincidence that he did. Especially if he had been there' longer than day which would have made sense since they had to time make sure the Air carrier clear of clue before they left.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurusu-Shirudo View Post
Not a coincidence but a logical progression of the events. Think about it a little, the bunny girl told Medaka Zen was coming there, so what do you think she would do in that case? If I were her, I would dispatch someone in order to make sure no one will get in their way.

Kumagawa is most likely there by direct request of Medaka, nothing more and nothing less. And against that Devil Style can't do shit. It would be fate if Medaka didn't know about the Student Council moving there and told Kumagawa to stay behind even without that info, but since she was told...


We don't know if Medaka even had contact with kumagawa, nor how long they were there and when they found out. Kumagawa could have easily left that place any time he wanted. So why did he hang around, and why did he hang around where noone would see him and yet made it in time to stop the student council from being defeated. Your making an assumption which is in itself a coincidence. Logically you wouldn't want Medaka talking to Kumagawa or anyone else for that matter. So your basically assuming the suitors were incompetant. Another fortunate coincidence.
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Old 2012-06-14, 10:58   Link #9458
K. Shiruto
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^Read my previous post. If you can't understand it after what I've just written on, then I give up. You're just making baseless assumptions by using Devil Style as the excuse for all your statements. -_-
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Old 2012-06-14, 11:04   Link #9459
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Why did he stay at the base, you could make up some reason why he did you easily make up a reason why he would want to leave the base and find some way to get back home or somewhere else, it's not like he could die of starvation. It's a coincidence that he did. Especially if he had been there' longer than day which would have made sense since they had to time make sure the Air carrier clear of clue before they left.
Bukiko Udou explicitly mentioned that they had to rush to change locations due to Zenkichi's group approaching. Zenkichi's group explicitly mentioned that there were signs all over the place that people had been in the base recently. They stumbled across the Suitor's half-used mugs of coffee, for fucks sake. It can't have been more than a few hours between Zenkichi's group's arrival and the Suitors' departure.

If the Suitors were blatantly changing location due to pursuers approaching, why the fuck wouldn't the Jokers leave someone behind to observe or watch over them? If he was around the base, how the hell could Kumagawa not notice Zenkichi's group, or decide not to follow them?

Jesus christ.
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Old 2012-06-14, 11:06   Link #9460
K. Shiruto
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People can be really stubborn sometimes, uh. Ah, wednesday please hurry up...!
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