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Old 2012-06-14, 11:08   Link #9461
Tenchi Hou Take
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurusu-Shirudo View Post
^Read my previous post. If you can't understand it after what I've just written on, then I give up. You're just making baseless assumptions by using Devil Style as the excuse for all your statements. -_-
I'm not making any assumptions that's entire core of my arguement. There's several ways this could have gone. Kumagawa finding out about the council coming (only would have occurred due to incompetance), Kumagawa staying around the base at that point in time rather than doing something else. Kumagawa being left behind, Kumagawa being too far away for the student to see yet reached the council in time to prevent them from losing.

There's several ways each of these events could have have gone the only way for the this specific event to occur was that they all went one or at most one and other way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Bukiko Udou explicitly mentioned that they had to rush to change locations due to Zenkichi's group approaching. Zenkichi's group explicitly mentioned that there were signs all over the place that people had been in the base recently. They stumbled across the Suitor's half-used mugs of coffee, for fucks sake. It can't have been more than a few hours between Zenkichi's group's arrival and the Suitors' departure.

If the Suitors were blatantly changing location due to pursuers approaching, why the fuck wouldn't the Jokers leave someone behind to observe or watch over them? If he was around the base, how the hell could Kumagawa not notice Zenkichi's group, or decide not to follow them?

Jesus christ.
Yor assuming the Jokers just willing stayed in captivity for whatever period of time, when it's pretty obvious they could have left or done whatever they wanted at any period of time. There could be a reason they stayed behind but there's also a reason why they would not want to.
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Old 2012-06-14, 11:12   Link #9462
K. Shiruto
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Like I said, you wait till next week to listen to Kumagawa's answers about why is he there. Right now it's all just assumptions.
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Old 2012-06-14, 11:13   Link #9463
Sarun
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Change of topic, how do you think 3rd Popularity Poll results would end up be?
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Old 2012-06-14, 11:15   Link #9464
Tenchi Hou Take
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurusu-Shirudo View Post
Like I said, you wait till next week to listen Kumagawa's answers about why is he there. Right now it's all just assumptions.
I know that but this event only occurs if Nisio twists this one way when in real life there's several ways this could have gone.
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Old 2012-06-14, 11:17   Link #9465
K. Shiruto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarun View Post
Change of topic, how do you think 3rd Popularity Poll results would end up be?
Dethrone Kumagawa isn't easy, but Zen did so well I think he will climb up to the top 5.
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Old 2012-06-14, 11:17   Link #9466
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
I'm not making any assumptions that's entire core of my arguement. There's several ways this could have gone. Kumagawa finding out about the council coming (only would have occurred due to incompetance), Kumagawa staying around the base at that point in time rather than doing something else. Kumagawa being left behind, Kumagawa being too far away for the student to see yet reached the council in time to prevent them from losing.

There's several ways each of these events could have have gone the only way for the this specific event to occur was that they all went one or at most one and other way.



Yor assuming the Jokers just willing stayed in captivity for whatever period of time, when it's pretty obvious they could have left or done whatever they wanted at any period of time. There could be a reason they stayed behind but there's also a reason why they would not want to.
So you think just because there's some undefined vastly unlikely "possibility" for the Jokers/Kumagawa to have decided "hey, rather than waiting for Zenkichi's group which I know is arriving to attempt to save Medaka, I'm gonna decide to go home instead", it's a "coincidence" now that he decided to stay and watch over them? You can't actually apply "coincidence" to people's decisions and motivations, y'know. That's the fucking basis of the whole "free will" concept, isn't it?

The Jokers decided to leave Kumagawa there. Kumagawa decided to watch over the battle, and then interfere and save Mukae. That's not fucking coincidence, that's "plot" and "characterization". You can stop your baseless arguing now.
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Old 2012-06-14, 11:21   Link #9467
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarun View Post
Change of topic, how do you think 3rd Popularity Poll results would end up be?
Ajimu has been somewhat missing from the manga lately but I'm hoping to see her up there.
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Fall:
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God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
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Old 2012-06-14, 11:21   Link #9468
Tenchi Hou Take
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
So you think just because there's some undefined vastly unlikely "possibility" for the Jokers/Kumagawa to have decided "hey, rather than waiting for Zenkichi's group which I know is arriving to attempt to save Medaka, I'm gonna decide to go home instead", it's a "coincidence" now that he decided to stay and watch over them? You can't actually apply "coincidence" to people's decisions and motivations, y'know. That's the fucking basis of free will in humans.

The Jokers decided to leave Kumagawa there. Kumagawa decided to watch over the battle, and then interfere and save Mukae. That's not fucking coincidence, that's "plot" and "characterization". You can stop your baseless arguing now.
Your assuming they could decide your assuming they did decide. Your assuming that the suitors allowed free communication despite how much of a retarded idea it would be and that if they did attempt to stop it that it failed. Your assuming Kumagawa would do whatever the hell Medaka wants rather than what he wants, and that why noone saw him before hand. And yet he made it in the nick of time. (he wasn't even late or there before the fight started).
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Old 2012-06-14, 11:23   Link #9469
Sarun
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I do wonder whether Suitors were ever in position to dictate terms to the Jokers.
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Old 2012-06-14, 11:25   Link #9470
Tenchi Hou Take
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarun View Post
I do wonder whether Suitors were ever in position to dictate terms to the Jokers.
They most likely were to some degree, it'd be quite retarded for Medaka to choose to be put in a cage with wax etc.
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Old 2012-06-14, 11:30   Link #9471
Randrak42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurusu-Shirudo View Post
People can be really stubborn sometimes, uh.
I wouldn't throw that around so easily. We may be stubborn to you but then again you guys are the stubborn ones to us. You know, different view points and all that.

Ok guys...first chill out.
I'm in no way innocent in this, but this discussion is going nowhere. People that didn't like the chapter aren't going to start liking it and people that liked it aren't going to start hating it.
A person's theories and reasoning aren't always going to be understood by others and there won't always be an agreement.
Some people personally consider it bad writing and ass pulls, others don't...arguing about it (and getting somewhat...heated up...along the way) will not lead anywhere.
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Old 2012-06-14, 11:32   Link #9472
K. Shiruto
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Yeah, that's the point. I better focus on the interesting tidbits such as Zen not being able to recall that line from the day Medaka proposed to him.
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Old 2012-06-14, 11:35   Link #9473
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Your assuming they could decide your assuming they did decide. Your assuming that the suitors allowed free communication despite how much of a retarded idea it would be and that if they did attempt to stop it that it failed. Your assuming Kumagawa would do whatever the hell Medaka wants rather than what he wants, and that why noone saw him before hand. And yet he made it in the nick of time. (he wasn't even late or there before the fight started).
I'm not assuming anything, I'm making logical inferences about likely possibilities based on the actual events of the manga. Because hey: if an author makes something happen in a story, there's likely a logical explanation for it. Especially when all that's even been shown is a "cool/dramatic entrance" so far and the story hasn't even had the pagecount to attempt an (obviously coming) explanation.

I never made any mention about Kumagawa acting on Medaka's orders, btw. My theory is that the Jokers are acting independently, because they aren't able to communicate with Medaka.

Also both Kurusu-Shirudo and I have repeatedly stated that Kumagawa was probably watching over the fight the entire time, and only decided to step in because it was necessary to save Mukae.

Your entire argument is that, even if there are logical explanations for the events of the story--just because there are also possible illogical explanations, then it must be an asspull? That doesn't even make any sense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
They most likely were to some degree, it'd be quite retarded for Medaka to choose to be put in a cage with wax etc.
Funny how Zenkichi explicitly mentioned that the Medaka of present would be likely to allow this.
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Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 28/5 :: Locodol 50/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Sabagebu 28/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
Fall:
Sora no Method 20/5 :: Karen Senki 8/5 :: Cross Ange 1/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Best adorable shoujo manga: Last Game
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Old 2012-06-14, 11:36   Link #9474
Randrak42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurusu-Shirudo View Post
Yeah, that's the point. I better focus on the interesting tidbits such as Zen not being able to recall that line from the day Medaka proposed to him.
Actually, that was interesting. We all know that Zenkichi's memory can be shitty at times...but to not remember that single word -.-'
I don't think this is much EmukaexZen fuel, rather it's epic ZenxMedaka fuel, cause you know the moment he remembers, he'll use it on Medaka himself.
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Old 2012-06-14, 11:54   Link #9475
Soji
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That's why ,at time I only like read.Because when you guys start to discuss like this you made clear more than one point.

Quote:
Actually, that was interesting. We all know that Zenkichi's memory can be shitty at times...but to not remember that single word -.-'
I don't think this is much EmukaexZen fuel, rather it's epic ZenxMedaka fuel, cause you know the moment he remembers, he'll use it on Medaka himself.
Thing that probaly will happen in this arc...maybe the end.
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Old 2012-06-14, 11:55   Link #9476
Wolfenstein
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurosu View Post
Incorrect, she never passed her insecurities. The situation is different from before in the treasurer battle. This has less to do about acceptance of herself, and more about her romantic feels towards Zenkichi and the baggage that seems to come with it. It's different because before she needed to convince herself that she mattered, that she needed to live and not die in her twisted vision of the world.

At this point she's conflicted over her purpose for joining the student council and how she feels for Zenkichi over Zenkichi's own happiness of wanting to be with Medaka. It's an evolution of the development of last time, when she wanted to find some usefulness in her.
You're missing the point. The point is Kumagawa is not in any way nescessary or important for any development to occur in this area, and in-fact is a bit diminishing considering Zenkichi and Kumagawa both had gigantic self-analysis moments that basically sparked their character metamorphosis. Why? Because like you yourself and I have said, she's already over her minus feelings of not wanting to live, the part which was already resolved by both Kumagawa and Zenkichi. No need to even mention how distractive his character is and all to the rest of the plot-elements given that we're talking solely about Emukae.

Instead of Emukae rising above her own insecurities due to her own will, all we get is a section of her being useless and then saved, and her trying to wear Medaka's being as costume. Really Nishio? Didn't you learn anything form Itachi? Still blabbering about how Medaka is perfect? Now you've just made it clear you're using other characters for this end, when you don't have to anymore. I'm impressed by the range Medaka's perfection has, it can ruin other character's development even off-screen. Hell he even brings emphasis to this fact in the flashback. What the fuck, bro. I thought you were going to show us now how Medaka was just a kid like us, not some perfect Goddess of wisdom for all.

Instead of Emukae deciding to not give up on her life and dreams, she just try to sacrifice herlself after a hopeless confession that will most likely be ignored, and wishing happiness for the man she loves with another woman, without even fighting for him. Which means she basically gave-up, and like Medaka said, is not like her. Hence character regression. Considering herself useless and weak from the get-go(being a Minus) when she was able to keep on fighting when Torai, Wani and Naze had to retire is also very contradictory and something she should've surpassed already.

There's good character development, and this was definitely not it. And did, in-fact, regress the character a few steps of what it should be. Now, this was a swing and a miss. It could've gone right, if Nishio did change a few factors here and there.

But since I'm nearly convinced this was all in-favor of Kumagawa's appereance(lol at Minus not working for no clear reasons without even styles being used) for yet to be revealed reasons, at least it's not like Nishio is spiteful of Emukae to go erroneous on her portrayal.

Last edited by Wolfenstein; 2012-06-14 at 12:10.
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Old 2012-06-14, 12:10   Link #9477
K. Shiruto
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I'm not worried about the upcome of the fight itself. Kumagawa can't win no matter what, and less now it's screws vs screwdrivers. On top of that, his All Fiction now has certain restrictions, therefore is weaker.

Oh, and Emukae will still fight now she's healed. Because Nisio is known for planning his stories ahead (and at this point he probably already knows how the whole arc will end), I'm not worried at all.
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Old 2012-06-14, 12:14   Link #9478
Wolfenstein
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Devil Style. Kumagawa's always lose mechanic is now [nothing].

Seriously, Zenkichi unshackled multiple beasts from the bonds of fate. There's no way Kumagawa can possibly be defeated unless this suitor can interfere with causality.
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Old 2012-06-14, 12:25   Link #9479
K. Shiruto
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Devil Style is kinda meaningless in that case. The suitor is too strong and Kumagawa's All Fiction is quite limited now.

I say, the only way they will defeat Kugurugi is through team effort once they find out which is her style and how exactly it works, and I believe Emukae will have the key there.
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Old 2012-06-14, 12:34   Link #9480
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Maybe I'm just biased, but I was a bit shocked at how many characters weren't in the top 10 for the second poll(like Hinokage, Unzen, Hitomi, etc.). I know Kumagawa seems to transcend boundaries, but it kind of rankles me in regards to Japanese difference in taste I guess...

Yeah I'll admit that the chapter bugged me with its Kumagawa appearance, but I'll have to see how this turns out.
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