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Old 2012-05-24, 07:09   Link #901
leukrota
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Continuing Touma's Esper status discussion from http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...81#post4173881

Quote:
Originally Posted by desrtsku View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by leukrota View Post
But Touma is not any level 0. Even if he took the curriculum, how do you know the IB didn't block/interfere-with the brain modifications he could have had? Until there's something more concrete we can't say for sure that he has an esper power.
*sigh* Ok, I hate repeating myself, especially when you retort with a point I made myself
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Originally Posted by desrtsku View Post
Thus it's safe to say that yes, Touma can produce AIM (the can here is to emphasize the fact that' it's technically erased by IB)
In other word, regardless of his level he MUST HAVE an esper power but it's constantly erased by IB. Thus he's an esper but just can't use his ability.
An example if you don't get it yet, just because it's night doesn't mean that the sun died, does it? So can you say that Touma's not an esper because his power is constantly erased by IB?
*sigh* You're the one who doesn't get it. To begin with, what I "retorted" with is not the same point you made. I'll put it in a easier way to understand:

There's no guarantee that the curriculum worked on Touma, you're just assuming it did when there's no confirmation. The IB could have messed the "esperification" process itself.

So no, it's not safe to say that he can produce AIM.
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Old 2012-05-24, 11:00   Link #902
FallenHero
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Wow. I really didn't expect my question to bring about such discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leukrota
There's no guarantee that the curriculum worked on Touma, you're just assuming it did when there's no confirmation. The IB could have messed the "esperification" process itself.

So no, it's not safe to say that he can produce AIM.
There is the possibility that he never went through the "esperification" part of the curriculum since Touma himself knew he was born with Imagine Breaker. If he had went through the curriculum he might have wrongly assumed his power was a result of the program1 otherwise he would have had to discover Imagine Breaker before entering the program.

Going with the assumption that he is an esper, I wonder what his real level would be? People do come out of the program at different levels.

1. Just like how he wrongly thinks Imagine Breaker is an esper ability.
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Old 2012-05-25, 05:41   Link #903
Awrya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenHero View Post
There is the possibility that he never went through the "esperification" part of the curriculum since Touma himself knew he was born with Imagine Breaker. If he had went through the curriculum he might have wrongly assumed his power was a result of the program1 otherwise he would have had to discover Imagine Breaker before entering the program.

Going with the assumption that he is an esper, I wonder what his real level would be? People do come out of the program at different levels.

1. Just like how he wrongly thinks Imagine Breaker is an esper ability.
I think it was mentioned in NT2 that he and Hamazura can't use magic because they were required to go through the curriculum.

Wasn't there talk about IB in Vol. 2, how Deep Blood proves the existence of vampires and what IB proves?For me, Touma couldn't have possible known about IB before entering the program, as in a world without supernatural powers, IB only brings you misfortune.
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Old 2012-05-25, 06:15   Link #904
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Awrya View Post
I think it was mentioned in NT2 that he and Hamazura can't use magic because they were required to go through the curriculum.

Wasn't there talk about IB in Vol. 2, how Deep Blood proves the existence of vampires and what IB proves?For me, Touma couldn't have possible known about IB before entering the program, as in a world without supernatural powers, IB only brings you misfortune.
Remember since Touma can't remember anything since the end of the first book and Gemstones are so rare that there are only 50 in the world and until ss2 there were only 3 belived to be in AC (IB (not realy one but belived to be by high level people in AC), Deep Blood, and the 7th # 5) everyone Touma included would assume he would have gone though the PCP like everyone else.

As is it is unclear if Touma ever went through any part of the PCP. Since Gemstone = esper that did not get thier powers through the PCP or other artifical means. IB was/is thought to be a gemstone by very high level people in AC therefore Touma had IB coming in to AC. Espers can only have 1 power. A large part of PCP is to manifest the power in the first place. Therefore it is pointless and likely dangous to Touma for AC to have put him through the part of PCP to manifest his powers. And due to not being able to read anything on his powers Parameter List likely has him taged as don't even try and he seems to have always been on Aliesters watch list with the words "no touchie, this means you Kihara"
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Old 2012-05-25, 11:15   Link #905
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but the banned touch are only for the dark side. The normal side and the school where Touma went doesn't know anything about that. And isn't he always complaining on Tsukiyomi sensei about it so I think he really had gone the same program and isn't the talk with Hamadura and Birdway confirm it. That even level zero that gone onto the program means that they can't use Touma though it didn't confirm for Touma if it's because of him being level 0 or because of Imagine Breaker.
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Old 2012-05-26, 01:11   Link #906
kagato3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
but the banned touch are only for the dark side. The normal side and the school where Touma went doesn't know anything about that. And isn't he always complaining on Tsukiyomi sensei about it so I think he really had gone the same program and isn't the talk with Hamadura and Birdway confirm it. That even level zero that gone onto the program means that they can't use Touma though it didn't confirm for Touma if it's because of him being level 0 or because of Imagine Breaker.
Parameter List shows that the dark side has a lot of control or the normal side. It is also questionable how public his "gemstone" status is. Volume 1 seems to point to him knowing he had his power before he came to AC so it again comes back to do Gemstones gothrough any meaningful parts of the PCP, if they do is it enough to change a nonesper to an esper since a real gemstone would already be an esper before entering AC. All the classes we have seen sofar in index have just been advanced math/physics and phys ed.
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Old 2012-05-27, 03:02   Link #907
judasmartel
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Can Saiai use her Offense Armor to create a shield covering nearby allies? Because if she can, that would make her a nice defensive buffer for an RPG party. And there's Rikou to consider, who can buff pretty much ANY esper except perhaps Touma.
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Old 2012-05-27, 03:14   Link #908
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Nope. Her Offense Armor only extends to a few centimeters from her skin.
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Old 2012-05-27, 10:57   Link #909
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Oh, I see. It's just a self-buff in an RPG setting, then. But hey, that would make Saiai a Stone Wall if anything.
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Old 2012-05-27, 12:26   Link #910
kagato3
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It seems to be a str buff + damage reduction. Strong enough attacks, a lot of continuous stacks, or light or energy based attacks should be able to brake or bypass the armor
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Old 2012-05-28, 17:11   Link #911
blackwhite67
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About Accelerator's ability. I recall that Kihara managed to bypass his reflection by pulling his fist back at the moment of contact in order to use Accelerator'a reflection to force his fist forward. Why couldn't Accelerator just made the vector 0 and stop the fist?
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Old 2012-05-28, 17:52   Link #912
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackwhite67 View Post
About Accelerator's ability. I recall that Kihara managed to bypass his reflection by pulling his fist back at the moment of contact in order to use Accelerator'a reflection to force his fist forward. Why couldn't Accelerator just made the vector 0 and stop the fist?
Because it does nothing; if you set it's velocity to 0, reflecting it would do squat as it's not moving. At the same time Kihara has already fine tune his timing so even if Accelerator turns it to 0, he'll just reapply the same force again in that split second, which is alot easier than pulling back a punch in the last second.
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Old 2012-05-28, 17:59   Link #913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackwhite67 View Post
About Accelerator's ability. I recall that Kihara managed to bypass his reflection by pulling his fist back at the moment of contact in order to use Accelerator'a reflection to force his fist forward. Why couldn't Accelerator just made the vector 0 and stop the fist?
Not really sure what you mean by that.

Accelerator's vector shield automatically reverses vectors coming its way. Kihara's reverse punch relies on the fact that pulling his fist back (his vectors) right when making contact with Accelerator's vector shield makes it so it reverses the direction of his punch - in this case, forward instead of backwards. In short, he uses minute timing to abuse how indiscretionary Accelerator's vector shield is.
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Old 2012-06-13, 18:37   Link #914
Ilidsor
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Sorry if this has been posted before, but I have a theory about Touma's ability. You know how almost every person he fights becomes a good guy eventually? Well my theory is that his power actually makes people into better people. This ties in with his position which is stated to be "He who cleanses god and exorcises the devil". It would explain how he so consistently turns people to his side, and I think would fit in really well with the series. I mean bad characters turning good happens a lot but I haven't ever read any series where it happens as much and as consistently ar Index.

On a side note (although I'm less sure about this) maybe his power doesn't just cleanse people when he fights them, it also spreads. This fits in with his old nickname "The Plague" and I think that would make it a really good bit of foreshadowing. The only evidence I have for this though is Hamazura turning Mugino good.
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Old 2012-06-14, 01:22   Link #915
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Though there are still exceptions to the ones being hit... Biagio and Terra of the Left comes to mind. I'd say that's probably crack theory at most.
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Old 2012-06-14, 14:21   Link #916
Ilidsor
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Well Terra got killed pretty soon afterwards so maybe it takes time, or maybe he has some sort of counter effect to it because he knows what it is. And Biagio... actually what the heck happens to Biagio I don't think he's ever even mentioned again. Unless I just have a really bad memory

But anyways ya, I doubt that this is really the reason. I just think it would be cool if it was

Last edited by Ilidsor; 2012-06-14 at 14:28. Reason: wording
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Old 2012-06-14, 14:43   Link #917
Miraluka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilidsor View Post
Sorry if this has been posted before, but I have a theory about Touma's ability. You know how almost every person he fights becomes a good guy eventually? Well my theory is that his power actually makes people into better people. This ties in with his position which is stated to be "He who cleanses god and exorcises the devil". It would explain how he so consistently turns people to his side, and I think would fit in really well with the series. I mean bad characters turning good happens a lot but I haven't ever read any series where it happens as much and as consistently ar Index.

On a side note (although I'm less sure about this) maybe his power doesn't just cleanse people when he fights them, it also spreads. This fits in with his old nickname "The Plague" and I think that would make it a really good bit of foreshadowing. The only evidence I have for this though is Hamazura turning Mugino good.
Well, in accord to Js06's translation the meaning is "The God Purifying Demon Destroyer".

But yeah, I agree, most of the people Touma interacted with ended reflecting their actions, even the narrative hints that, for example Fiamma:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vol.22 Epilogue
“I see.” He only had one arm, but Fiamma of the Right slowly shook his head. “…But that no longer matters.”

Oddly enough, his expression lacked the strange passion it had held up until then.

It was as if some kind of evil spirit had left him.

“When I see you, I can feel the futility of what I did. Most likely, I had that same look on my face. And someone who can truly save the world would not have that expression on his face. ...At that time and in that place, he stood in a position where no one could overtake him.”

He felt like he had come to a bit of an understanding as to what he had lacked.
This is after Touma saved Fiamma's ass from the falling SoB.
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Old 2012-06-14, 14:48   Link #918
Ilidsor
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Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
Well, in accord to Js06's translation the meaning is "The God Purifying Demon Destroyer".
Really? I like the mistranslation better "The God Purifying Demon Destroyer" just doesn't have the same feel as "He Who Cleanses God and Exorcises the Devil". The second one just feels more epic, and much less cheesy.
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Old 2012-06-14, 18:03   Link #919
leukrota
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Originally Posted by Ilidsor View Post
And Biagio... actually what the heck happens to Biagio I don't think he's ever even mentioned again. Unless I just have a really bad memory
He was imprisoned by Necessarius. Styl interrogated him about the God's right hand during the C-document arc. Biagio wasn't really repenting his actions in there though, so he will probably won't become a "good guy" anytime soon... moreover, I don't think we'll see him again at all.
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Old 2012-06-14, 18:20   Link #920
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilidsor View Post
Really? I like the mistranslation better "The God Purifying Demon Destroyer" just doesn't have the same feel as "He Who Cleanses God and Exorcises the Devil". The second one just feels more epic, and much less cheesy.
Its the same thing so just use whichever one you like, as long as you don't take it literally word for word.
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