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Old 2012-06-11, 14:19   Link #1741
Renall
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The question is, what does George like about Shannon? What is it about her that he loves? Or is he just in a relationship to have one and with a woman to have her? What does Shannon love about him? I honestly don't know. The relationship presented is at its climax with the proposal, and short of the trip at the start of ep2 (which is curiously non-revelatory), we never really see them do anything.
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Old 2012-06-11, 15:58   Link #1742
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
AuraTwilight told me elsewhere that the four cousins (throwing Maria in there) could arguably be arranged to represent the four forms of classical Greek love, but I don't know enough about that to say.
I'll clarify here.

Jessica is Philia, the Love of Friendship. Her relationship with Kanon is really cute, but she expresses her desire for a boyfriend as basically a "boy FRIEND" with super romantic benefits. She wants to play with him, hang out with him, and built a relationship on things they have in common, and ultimately have an easy, laid-back relationship.

George is Eros, the Love of Flesh. This is what most people think of when they think of love. He wants to get down with her and have a bunch of young'ns. Given his lack of regard for Shannon's true self, he seems to lack a lot of the components of the other four loves, making it basically a dolled up and prettified Lust.

Battler is Storge, the Love of Family. He comes to respect Beatrice intimately and intellectually, and takes the time to solve her mysteries and puzzles as a human being, and expects her to do the same. He ultimately 'marries' her and they come to consider each other parts of the same whole, like a family unit. Battler expects nothing of Beatrice except what he expects to give her back.

And Maria is Agape, the Unconditional Love. Called the Love of Martyrs, Agape is the Love Of No Expectations. The love that makes people throw themselves into fires to save a stranger. Socrates and Plato both called it the most beautiful of loves. Maria loves Rosa, and just about everyone else, unconditionally and expects nothing from them, and will excuse everything that happens at her expense.

Given that none of the four have a healthy relationship with the people they're paired with, Ryukishi seems to have made the unintentional point that focusing on only one of the Loves isn't healthy, or that it's crucial to identify what love you're actually feeling instead of just going "omg i wuv u's"
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Old 2012-06-12, 02:42   Link #1743
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Wow, that's really interesting. I think those descriptions are really accurate actually.
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Old 2012-06-13, 17:28   Link #1744
Judoh
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Very nice find!
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Old 2012-06-13, 17:50   Link #1745
GreyZone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
[...]George is Eros, the Love of Flesh. This is what most people think of when they think of love. He wants to get down with her and have a bunch of young'ns. Given his lack of regard for Shannon's true self, he seems to lack a lot of the components of the other four loves, making it basically a dolled up and prettified Lust.[...]
Not wanting to be nitpicking, but are there 5 kinds of greek love, or was this just a typo?
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Old 2012-06-13, 21:38   Link #1746
AuraTwilight
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Er, yea, that was a typo. Derp!
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Old 2012-06-14, 15:41   Link #1747
UsagiTenpura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I'll clarify here.

Jessica is Philia, the Love of Friendship. Her relationship with Kanon is really cute, but she expresses her desire for a boyfriend as basically a "boy FRIEND" with super romantic benefits. She wants to play with him, hang out with him, and built a relationship on things they have in common, and ultimately have an easy, laid-back relationship.

George is Eros, the Love of Flesh. This is what most people think of when they think of love. He wants to get down with her and have a bunch of young'ns. Given his lack of regard for Shannon's true self, he seems to lack a lot of the components of the other four loves, making it basically a dolled up and prettified Lust.

Battler is Storge, the Love of Family. He comes to respect Beatrice intimately and intellectually, and takes the time to solve her mysteries and puzzles as a human being, and expects her to do the same. He ultimately 'marries' her and they come to consider each other parts of the same whole, like a family unit. Battler expects nothing of Beatrice except what he expects to give her back.

And Maria is Agape, the Unconditional Love. Called the Love of Martyrs, Agape is the Love Of No Expectations. The love that makes people throw themselves into fires to save a stranger. Socrates and Plato both called it the most beautiful of loves. Maria loves Rosa, and just about everyone else, unconditionally and expects nothing from them, and will excuse everything that happens at her expense.

Given that none of the four have a healthy relationship with the people they're paired with, Ryukishi seems to have made the unintentional point that focusing on only one of the Loves isn't healthy, or that it's crucial to identify what love you're actually feeling instead of just going "omg i wuv u's"
I find this comparison very interesting, tho I have a few inputs about it.

- George feels more like Mania then Eros, overall, to me.
- Your description of Battler seems valid for the "outcome of Meta-Battler". Gameboard Battler is a "playful pervert" who showed to be mostly Philia like Jessica.
- Kinzo seems to have felt all five loves very strongly toward Beatrice 1. He also seems to have expected back all five loves and didn't get it.
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Old 2012-06-14, 16:00   Link #1748
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
- George feels more like Mania then Eros, overall, to me.
Mania isn't a Greek Love.

Quote:
- Your description of Battler seems valid for the "outcome of Meta-Battler". Gameboard Battler is a "playful pervert" who showed to be mostly Philia like Jessica.
I'm basically judging the characters as a whole, incorporating all their Gameboard and Meta-perceptions.

Battler in both layers is effectively the same character, just with a different knowledgebase.

Quote:
- Kinzo seems to have felt all five loves very strongly toward Beatrice 1. He also seems to have expected back all five loves and didn't get it.
Four loves, Usagi. Four.

And Kinzo effectively felt a mix of Storge and Eros. Philia is generally overridden by the other two, and Agape isn't something you feel towards 'one person', but 'to everyone'. Agape is specifically "Unconditional Love to All."

Depending on your interpretation of Kinzo, he either felt Eros, like George, or Storge, like Battler. It's yet another way Ryukishi seems to have made George and Battler into perfect foils of each other, albeit unintentionally.
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Old 2012-06-14, 22:33   Link #1749
Kealym
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The question is, what does George like about Shannon? What is it about her that he loves? Or is he just in a relationship to have one and with a woman to have her? What does Shannon love about him? I honestly don't know. The relationship presented is at its climax with the proposal, and short of the trip at the start of ep2 (which is curiously non-revelatory), we never really see them do anything.
Well, maybe I'm just reading too much into it, but I got the impression that George was attracted to her looks, her demure behavior, and penchant for domesticity. As for Shannon, she seemed impressed with his intelligence and generally gallant behavior towards her.

Keeping in mind that they're both very young, and this is, if both are to be believed, their FIRST romantic relationship ever, it isn't surprising that they're love, mostly uncontested, is pretty simple. Further, I'd say if you ask most people what they like about their partner, they'd have a few specific points, and quite a few very general things, like "He makes me laugh", or "She's always showing me new things"

I think it's pretty normal that you can attribute a relationship, sometimes, to circumstance, proximity, and availability. Shannon was a girl George had access to, their personalities gelled fairly well, and whatever she's using to pad out that bra is truly working miracles. Were the circumstances different, sure, they could end up with any other girl / guy. But the circumstances are ... as they are - Shannon got a sweet chubby Prince, and George got himself a meido waifu.
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Old 2012-06-15, 15:04   Link #1750
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This is a very impressive thought. It actually portrays everyone's feelings rather accurately (especially if we take to account the 'ressurrection of the lost love' bit), and a very surprising find too. I am greek, so it was a bit funny seeing something like that pop up in an Umineko discussion.
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Old 2013-09-01, 15:09   Link #1751
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The way Battler mocks his own motion terror antics -- "I'm falling, I'm falling!" -- leaves me the impression he'd actually gotten over it and was just carrying on the act because it entertained others, especially Maria and Ange. Battler is valiant enough to humiliate himself and give others a laugh at his expense.

Due to the 7th and 9th conjunct that demands honesty from the designated detective, it would've had to have been sincere in the 1st-4th episodes, but by this time he'd already been through the boat ride often enough to be accustomed to it, and he knew nothing was going to kill him before he reached the island.
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Old 2013-09-04, 13:28   Link #1752
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin View Post
The way Battler mocks his own motion terror antics -- "I'm falling, I'm falling!" -- leaves me the impression he'd actually gotten over it and was just carrying on the act because it entertained others, especially Maria and Ange. Battler is valiant enough to humiliate himself and give others a laugh at his expense.

Due to the 7th and 9th conjunct that demands honesty from the designated detective, it would've had to have been sincere in the 1st-4th episodes, but by this time he'd already been through the boat ride often enough to be accustomed to it, and he knew nothing was going to kill him before he reached the island.
I don't think he ever said "I have motion sickness". He just said where he thinks his motion sickness begun, but he doesn't have to say that he overcame it after a certain time. Of course it is also possible that in the first 4 episodes it was again Yasu putting 12 year old Battler into a 18 year old body.
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Old 2013-09-04, 18:43   Link #1753
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
I don't think he ever said "I have motion sickness". He just said where he thinks his motion sickness begun, but he doesn't have to say that he overcame it after a certain time. Of course it is also possible that in the first 4 episodes it was again Yasu putting 12 year old Battler into a 18 year old body.
Well, but Ep 3 & 4 were likely written by Tohya and Kuwabata confirmed to Ange he'd made a show of being afraid. Also it was likely easy to check if he was afraid of planes and ships. He seemed to be quite noisy so there are probably witnessers at the airport too, as he had to take a flight in addition to the boat to reach Rokkenjima and it's possible his classmates and friends knew.

Of course Battler might have faked it for the sake of amusing his cousins or to pretend he never changed from when he was a kid but I'd say it's likely he did a scene in Prime, only we can't tell if it was genuine or not.
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Old 2013-09-26, 06:52   Link #1754
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Wow, the ep 8 manga is making a point about Shkanontrice even harder. With the way that one chapter, Battler talks about how where they are, the souls of the dead can be resurrected and all beings can be equal, and "That's why Grandfather, Shannon-Kanon...Beatrice...and people who shouldn't be present can all be here equally." Shannon-Kanon. That's rude, Battler!

Of course, they already made that super clear earlier in ep 8, but they aren't stopping. And it makes it very clear that Lion is Beatrice from another fragment, too. Genji says that the way he calls himself furniture is different from the way that Shannon and Kanon call themselves furniture. As it seems that the servants are furniture idea was Genji's in the first place, and Yasu put a twist on it later, I wonder if Genji is regretting ever coining the idea.
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Old 2013-09-26, 12:33   Link #1755
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With the series' big obsession with lateral-thinking puzzles, I'm surprised it took Ryukishi six years to get to the Monty Hall problem.
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Old 2013-09-30, 01:39   Link #1756
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Hello, Umineko fans!
I'm Agustin and I'd like to ask something.. hope this place is the right one.
Where can I buy Umineko? I'm a little lost.. because every site I get says that Umineko is Sold Out, even the ps3's purchase websites.

Thanks!
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Old 2013-10-07, 15:03   Link #1757
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Pretty late, I know, but why can't you just get the digital version?
http://www.mangagamer.com/detail.php...0984a318019d23
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Old 2013-10-09, 09:57   Link #1758
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Talking

Oh, thank you! I didn't check out that website..
Now I'm happy !
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Old 2013-10-18, 04:17   Link #1759
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Umineko newbie here. I picked up the Visual Novels towards the end of May, finished the series about two or three days ago. Loved the entire series and the 8th episode is no exception, but it left me with more mixed of feelings than the previous seven did, which I view with nothing but unblemished adoration.

As a story to itself, Twilight of the Golden Witch is wonderful and there's many things to like about it. The lengthy Halloween party, the first six or seven chapters of the game focusing more squarely upon the Ushiromiya family as a whole than any story since the original. Battler's attempts to help Ange rediscover that the Ushiromiyas were a decent family at least part of the time and that her bitterness warped her image of them. The moral the game presented that sometimes, it's best to just let things go and focus on the present and future (which isn't always possible depending on the person and the circumstances, but it's a touching message and makes for a compelling story just the same). The final battle with the Ushiromiya family defending the Golden Land, with Battler and Ange teaming up against Bernkastel. Battler losing his memory and spending most of his life starting the October of 1986 living a quiet, peaceful life with Featherine; the two scenes that feature this particular story element are some of my favorites in the entire series, very mystical and mesmerizing. Ryukishi's a great writer, and Umineko's 8th entry packed just as much of an emotional punch as everything else I've ever read from him.

At the same time, though, 'Twilight' is the only entry that confuses my feelings towards Umineko as a whole. I understand the message that Battler was trying to convey to Ange during the Halloween party. It's true that the family conferences always seemed like a great time, the darkness lurking beneath the surface only coming out whenever the adults were alone to discuss the inheritance (and this might only apply to some of the later conferences - when Kinzo was younger and healthier during the 1960s and presumably most of the 1970s, things might have been less heated with the inheritance seemingly a distant concern). It's true that Ange's relatives loved her and that her perception of the Ushiromiyas were warped.

The story went to such lengths to whitewash the uglier side of the Ushiromiya coin, though, that it's just left me rather... confused. It's important to see people in their entirety, but the vicious family dynamics that permeated the first seven games were downplayed so much that at times it seems as though the story's suggesting that those dynamics never existed. In some of his conversations with Ange, Battler makes it sound as though the Ushiromiyas were a very functional family no different from any other, rather than a deeply troubled family whose every member housed skeletons in their closet but loved each other just the same. The premise that the Ushiromiya family is extremely fucked up and that there's a great deal of bad blood between its members more or less forms the main backbone of the series, so to have the veracity of that premise brought into question really muddles my understanding of the story. I'm okay with not knowing the truth behind the mystery or of Rokkenjima Prime, but to have everything pre-1986 called into question as well... yeah, that muddies the waters a little too much.

I might be missing something, or a lot of somethings, though. Actually, I probably am just being dense. Or maybe I'm just rehashing some of the same feelings that others expressed the December of 2010 and January of 2011, back when the story was still new. Yeah, I think I'll go back and read some of the older posts in this thread to see if this subject was ever raised...

Last edited by Dr. Casey; 2013-10-18 at 04:28.
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Old 2013-10-18, 08:59   Link #1760
Golden Bug-Hunter
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This is kind of a thematic thing with Ryukishi, as far as I can tell. That *everybody* has skeletons in the closet and suppressed grudges, but people are fundamentally decent despite, or even because of that, and that there is probably a reason such skeletons came to exist. It's not so much questioning the veracity of there having been conflicts over the money, it's questioning the veracity of whether those conflicts dominated every aspect of their interactions to such a degree.
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