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Old 2012-06-16, 17:07   Link #481
chaos_alfa
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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
I am surprised we didn't see the Grail's true form, with the tower and all. Maybe we'll see that next episode. Gil still hasn't had any Grail Juice, after all.
And where was the battle with Saber and Archer between the burning buildings?
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Old 2012-06-16, 17:53   Link #482
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
That's just your personal view on the matter. The narrative itself doesn't try and make following the ideal out to be something inherently bad (or it wouldn't be the end result of Good/True conclusions to two different routes). And again, you're straying from the point of my initial statement, which is that Kiritsugu would find salvation in the person Shirou became in UBW, since the whole point of its ending is that he won't let the ideal break him as it did Archer, who is pretty much Kiritsugu Part 2.

As for this "found an answer or not" business, the point is that Shirou is empty and lacks a self, and thus needs something to fill him and give him a sense of purpose. In UBW it's his ideal, whereas in HF he replaces it with his affection for Sakura. It's a different choice, but it doesn't make the ones reached in the previous routes a mistake, since, as you said, there is no true route and they are all equally canon.
Not really? UBW was never to mean a 'conclusion'. It's only exploration. It has no conclusion. Shirou reaches to nothing at all. The way to live his ideals? He has no idea of how. We don't see him years in the future. Nothing.

In HF he re-discovers his sense of self. He had to fall into pieces to be rebuilt. In UBW he's still an empty man as Kotomine, so it's kind of creepy... Last episode closes it for Fate because they glossed over the fixing him state, but he does.

What Kiritsugu truly wanted was to have his family in a quiet world, not his ideal. By having Shirou pursue empty ideals it's the same as kicking the man in the grave. He wanted him to do that at one point when he was a child, then grow up as people do. The only time Shirou is given choices to make him be Kiritsugu or reject and gone his way? HF. Which routes Shirou accomplishes for sure what Kiritsugu wanted? Fate (at some degree, if you take into account Last Episode) and HF. Not UBW.

UBW does NOT explore this, guys. It's an incomplete route that shows the middle of the way before the conclusion (HF) and after the beginning (Fate, which had a conclusion thanks to Last Episode later).
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Old 2012-06-16, 18:46   Link #483
DragoZERO
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Originally Posted by chaos_alfa View Post
And where was the battle with Saber and Archer between the burning buildings?
Maybe we need to read the novel. They might not have been able to fit it.
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Old 2012-06-16, 19:03   Link #484
chaos_alfa
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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
Maybe we need to read the novel. They might not have been able to fit it.
I'm already doing that. After every episode I read the part the episode covered

But I think it will probably still happen or at least partially, because Shirou's house needs to get destroyed somehow.

Last edited by chaos_alfa; 2012-06-16 at 19:16.
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Old 2012-06-16, 19:34   Link #485
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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
I am surprised we didn't see the Grail's true form, with the tower and all. Maybe we'll see that next episode. Gil still hasn't had any Grail Juice, after all.
Tower is only underground, beneath Ryudo Temple. If anything, you will see the Black Sun a la Fate Route.

Well, you already kind of saw the Black Sun in this episode, in the Grail hallucination.
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Old 2012-06-16, 21:26   Link #486
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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
Maybe we need to read the novel. They might not have been able to fit it.
Actually, this part is actually accurate to the novel too. The only thing that's been changed in the anime is that the building itself wasn't on fire, which was caused by Berserker blowing up the vehicle in his battle with Saber. The anime apparently had the fire contained into the parking lot, whereas in the novel the fire had spread to other parts of the building.

Last edited by Archer; 2012-06-16 at 21:40.
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Old 2012-06-16, 21:29   Link #487
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Originally Posted by chaos_alfa View Post
I'm already doing that. After every episode I read the part the episode covered
I thought about doing that but... I wouldn't be able to stop myself from reading ahead.

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But I think it will probably still happen or at least partially, because Shirou's house needs to get destroyed somehow.
But it doesn't have to. We know it happens from the game, so why re-iterate? This is about Kiritsugu and the Fourth War.

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Originally Posted by Touko View Post
Tower is only underground, beneath Ryudo Temple. If anything, you will see the Black Sun a la Fate Route.

Well, you already kind of saw the Black Sun in this episode, in the Grail hallucination.
I always thought the Tower would manifest where ever the Grail was properly summoned.


Oh, how awesome would it to be to end the series with Saber going back to her time and then going directly to Shirou or have Sakura wake Shirou up followed by flashes from parts of HF with a "Coming soon... Fate/stay night - Heaven's Feel" announcement? I'm giddy thinking about it even though I know it won't happen.
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Old 2012-06-16, 23:52   Link #488
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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
Shirou or have Sakura wake Shirou up followed by flashes from parts of HF with a "Coming soon... Fate/stay night - Heaven's Feel" announcement? I'm giddy thinking about it even though I know it won't happen.
Don't you mention the possibility... Don't you mention it...

Damn now I'm going to be so disappointed next episode just from pondering this
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Old 2012-06-17, 00:36   Link #489
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Not really? UBW was never to mean a 'conclusion'. It's only exploration. It has no conclusion. Shirou reaches to nothing at all. The way to live his ideals? He has no idea of how. We don't see him years in the future. Nothing.
It has a conclusion to UBW's story. At the end, "FIN" appears just like it does for HF. I don't care if you personally feel that Shirou continuing to embrace his ideal rather than moving on to romance is an unsatisfactory conclusion, it's still one of the possible endings to his story.

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In HF he re-discovers his sense of self.
Where is this stated? If the narrative outright states this (doubtful, given the epilogue is from Rin's POV), I might buy it, but if it's just you preferring romance to ideals again, then I'll stick to my own view on the matter: Shirou simply replaces the ideal to save everyone with his affection for Sakura. He may have moved on from everyone to a person he loves uniquely, but in the end he's still a pure giver who lives entirely for someone other than himself. He's still an empty man filling his lack of self with something external to him.

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What Kiritsugu truly wanted was to have his family in a quiet world, not his ideal. By having Shirou pursue empty ideals it's the same as kicking the man in the grave. He wanted him to do that at one point when he was a child, then grow up as people do. The only time Shirou is given choices to make him be Kiritsugu or reject and gone his way? HF. Which routes Shirou accomplishes for sure what Kiritsugu wanted? Fate (at some degree, if you take into account Last Episode) and HF. Not UBW.
Except the way Shirou went about the ideal is fundamentally different from the way Kiritsugu did. Kiritsugu was forced by his circumstances into becoming a corruption of sorts of the ideal. His initial dream was to become a hero who would save everyone, but, when faced with the Shirley incident, he had no choice but to become instead a ruthless anti-hero who kills hundreds to save thousands. That's why he comes to regret the way he lived. Shirou, however, always held true to the initial vision of the ideal. And the whole point of UBW is that he will continue to do so without letting it break him; he's already seen the worst possible end result of the path that lies ahead of him, yet he did not waver in his determination, and he's got Rin by his side, precisely because she takes it upon herself to support him in his endeavor to stay true to the ideal without becoming like Archer (or Kiritsugu).

Sure, you may find that to be nave and wishful thinking and that Shirou would eventually be forced into killing Rin because of the ideal, but, as you said, the route doesn't actually show what takes place years into the future, so all of that is mere conjecture. What matters is what we actually saw, and that was a Shirou filled with the resolve to become a hero (and not an anti-hero like Archer/Kiritsugu) who won't come to regret his path.

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UBW does NOT explore this, guys. It's an incomplete route that shows the middle of the way before the conclusion (HF) and after the beginning (Fate, which had a conclusion thanks to Last Episode later).
What? One route does not supersede the other just because it takes place afterwards in the game. They're not sequels in chronological order, they're alternate retellings of the story of Emiya Shirou. Now I'm not saying the order is random, there's clearly a thematic logic to it, but I don't believe it automatically makes HF's ending the be-all and end-all of F/SN conclusions (and personally I don't care much for Last Episode since to me it's just retroactively tacked on fanservice).

And UBW's ending is also a conclusion because that's what conclusions are - an end/finish to a certain process - UBW's ending provides an end to the process that was the UBW route. I get that you feel HF's conclusion was the most appropriate one or whatever, but I'm not obliged to feel the same.
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Old 2012-06-17, 02:15   Link #490
SRanger
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Yeah, what's up with the setting for the final battle for the grail? in F/SN it's supposed to be burning buildings with a giant Grail tower or w.e

Also I thought there'd be more of a showdown with archer vs saber.

Another thing..did Kiritsugu and Kotomine face each other off w.o their servants, as kind of a man on man type of thing? Wonder why they didn't call the aid for their servants during the battle.

Something else that has been kind of eating me away is that, in the F/SN visual novel, Kotomine talks about how he tried to get the grail 'too early' in some routes, or something along that nature. What exactly does he mean, because I sure as hell don't get that from Fate/Zero.
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Old 2012-06-17, 02:22   Link #491
mAc Chaos
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Kotomine specifically wanted to fight Kiritsugu personally. Don't forget how he was telling Gilgamesh that if he had any wish, it would be that nobody would interrupt their fight.
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Old 2012-06-17, 02:25   Link #492
Vicious108
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Yeah, what's up with the setting for the final battle for the grail? in F/SN it's supposed to be burning buildings with a giant Grail tower or w.e

Also I thought there'd be more of a showdown with archer vs saber.

Something else that has been kind of eating me away is that, in the F/SN visual novel, Kotomine talks about how he tried to get the grail 'too early' in some routes, or something along that nature. What exactly does he mean, because I sure as hell don't get that from Fate/Zero.
IIRC, the fire at the end of the 4th War only breaks out (beyond the mall) after the Grail saves Kirei and he makes his wish for everyone around him to disappear (even though it's implied that it wasn't really because of his wish in the end).

As for Saber vs Archer clashing amidst the flames, was that really shown or described in the Visual Novel? I remember that it's the very first scene of the Fate/Stay Night anime, but I'm not so sure about the VN. I thought it might take place after Saber destroys the Grail, but I don't think she can stay materialized after that happens (Gil manages to only because he is bathed in the Grail's contents).

As for the "getting the Grail too early" thing, it's probably a reference to trying to attain the Grail before it's fully powered up by the Servants' deaths. Even in episode 24 of Fate/Zero I believe the Grail still isn't complete because Saber and Archer are both still around.
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Old 2012-06-17, 02:33   Link #493
mAc Chaos
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It is definitely mentioned in the VN, I looked it up earlier. Saber mentions how they all fought in the sea of flames.

Seems like F/Z retconned it.
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Old 2012-06-17, 02:37   Link #494
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Or Saber is imagining it as most awesome than it really was.
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Old 2012-06-17, 10:43   Link #495
zRyuu
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It is definitely mentioned in the VN, I looked it up earlier. Saber mentions how they all fought in the sea of flames.

Seems like F/Z retconned it.
F/Z anime forgot to add the flames and Saber calls that a fight.
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Old 2012-06-17, 10:47   Link #496
DragoZERO
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It is definitely mentioned in the VN, I looked it up earlier. Saber mentions how they all fought in the sea of flames.

Seems like F/Z retconned it.
But if you think about it, the result of the flames was because of the grail's destruction, so Saber should be there. If anything, the VN lacked foresight which you can't place blame since Nasu didn't plan on Fate/Zero being written when he did Fate.
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Old 2012-06-17, 11:03   Link #497
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The problem is that Saber should go poof once the Grail is destroyed (like in UBW), which means their little skirmish here was all their clash in the 4th War amounted to.

Which is a little disappointing, but I suppose it makes sense, since that fight will see its conclusion in Fate, whereas the Gil vs Rider, Saber vs Zerker and Kerry vs Kirei fights won't ever happen again.
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Old 2012-06-17, 12:18   Link #498
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I heard Shirou lines in the preview, and the start of an ideal. I wonder how much we'll get to see of Kiritsugu's successor. I am pumped now.

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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
The problem is that Saber should go poof once the Grail is destroyed (like in UBW), which means their little skirmish here was all their clash in the 4th War amounted to.

Which is a little disappointing, but I suppose it makes sense, since that fight will see its conclusion in Fate, whereas the Gil vs Rider, Saber vs Zerker and Kerry vs Kirei fights won't ever happen again.
Saber stays in one of the UBW ends. So the Grail isn't absolutely necessary. I think she can stay around for a little while if she tries.

Maybe next episode has a brief scenes of a pissed off Saber fighting with Gil. We haven't even seen the fire, or Gil being touched by the Grail mud yet, so it's possible.
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Old 2012-06-17, 12:31   Link #499
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She stays in UBW Good End because Rin, her Master, makes it so. But here her Master is Kiritsugu, and obviously there's no love lost between them, so he definitely won't spare any effort to keep around any longer than necessary (for his own sake, he better hope she disappears ASAP, because with no Command Spells and having forced her to destroy the Grail, she would probably turn her blade on him).

With that being said, I do believe she'll have a final significant scene before fading away, probably with some sort of monologue alluding to her role and development in F/SN. Too bad it probably won't have the impact it should have since we can't feel how emotionally drained she is from fighting Lancelot due to how they glossed over that fight.
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Old 2012-06-17, 12:34   Link #500
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She can't stay if your command seal is use all your prana to fire excalibur like in Fate.
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