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Old 2012-06-17, 12:36   Link #22021
Malkuth
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I had in mind how stimulus packages were and are suggested in EU. But its true that common policies (financially or other) have very strong opposition in each country by very strong fascist and traditional communist parties (that are absorbed into centre-right and left outside Europe), as well as conservative and liberal parties, that are very close politically to the republicans, who despite their political rhetoric have turned to anarcho-capitalism, unlike their historical leaders that created the EU and set the course for the abolition of powerful states in Europe. It's sad to witness today how for example CDU has changed from Kohl to Merkel.
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Old 2012-06-17, 13:13   Link #22022
sneaker
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Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
It's sad to witness today how for example CDU has changed from Kohl to Merkel.
How did they change?
The CDU still is - like all major German parties - is highly in favor of more European integration. I don't see any change.
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Old 2012-06-17, 13:18   Link #22023
Sumeragi
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CDU was fairly supportive of a welfare state. Today's CDU is pretty much neoliberal.
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Old 2012-06-17, 13:22   Link #22024
sneaker
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No German party questions the German welfare state more than not wanting to further increase welfare. And even Helmut Kohl was very critical of all the benefits of German workers: "A successful industrial nation, i.e. a nation with a future, cannot be organized like a collective amusement park" is one of his most famous quotes.
The question still stands: how did the Kohl's CDU differ from Merkel's?
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Old 2012-06-17, 14:01   Link #22025
Malkuth
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Angela Merkel is the strongest opponent to european integration, in stark opposition to Helmut Kohl.

Anyway, first results from Greece prohibit the worst possibilities, extremist right or left coalitions. Now the big question is if the third party (social democrats) will join conservative winner. In between those formed the previous government that were supported by Merkel and Hollande, despite not implementing the measures they signed. There is also an issue about how willing either are to take the responsibility of governing, but at least their most corrupt members are either in prison or fled to Germany, France, and USA to evade court.
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Old 2012-06-17, 14:12   Link #22026
antediluvian
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European integration is a fantastic idea. It's an inevitability in the long term. If it isn't so painful, maybe most Asian countries could do the same, but the issue with such an idea would be how imposing China would be as the largest nation in Southeast Asia when you give thought the idea of Asian integration. In fact, I guess an Asian Union of sorts would be pretty much impossible without China spearheading it.

How do you guys feel about that at this point in time?
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Old 2012-06-17, 14:22   Link #22027
Malkuth
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European integration was and still is the only defense western states have against populism and fascism and the destruction they brought to our ancestors. In Asian nations nationalism takes very different forms.
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Old 2012-06-17, 15:11   Link #22028
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There's still the main issue of language, attaining a federal system is nothing more than a sweet dream as long as this problem exists. If we manage to do, we will have to elect people who represent us, but if only a fragment of Europe can understand them or feel represented by them ... Seems problematic.

But yeah in the long range, I hope too we will be to attain a Europe nation, I would like to still be alive, which isn't very likely.
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Old 2012-06-17, 15:48   Link #22029
Malkuth
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Almost a fourth in the states speak only spanish, and when they formed the original federation it was far worse. Also large federations such as India, Russia and China are multilingual and multinational.

Most Europeans of smaller countries speak 2 or 3 languages already, only France, Germany, Italy and Spain are the exception to this... oh! and a couple of islands close to Europe

Language barriers and cultural differences IMHO is just an excuse used by conservatives and fascists and their financial supporters... again with the exception to large nationalized countries where the public has limited exposure to the rest of the world.
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Old 2012-06-17, 15:53   Link #22030
Ithekro
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I don't recall of this made it to European law, but back in 2001, we were told that European children were learning: English, French, and their native language(s).
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Old 2012-06-17, 16:00   Link #22031
Zakoo
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Hmm, I'm not sure such a law passed, It would be outrageous that french was teached while german isn't. Well at least, english for sure heheehehe. And even then, between having some lessons and understanding people, there's a world between the two.

Anyway, what you say Malkuth is true, but society changes, what happened in the past won't necessarly happen in present mostly because what is doable on small scale is rarely doable once again in a larger scale.

We can hope though, and/or strive to hasten the change.
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Old 2012-06-17, 16:00   Link #22032
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@Ithekro: Depends heavily on the country. Scandinavia is known for including, with their native ones, English as compulsory. Usually, French and German are quite normal to choose as a Third Language, along with Spanish.

I don't know how it is in Germany or France, but for Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark, this is usually the case.

@Malkuth: Be somewhat careful with throwing fascist around. A lot of voices here are against the EU exactly due to culture differences, because the EU tries to apply a certain culture to all countries. This doesn't work, obviously, because the culture is so incredibly diverse even between a country such as Sweden and, say, Britain. Hell, it's quite different between the Scandinavian countries even.
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Old 2012-06-17, 16:15   Link #22033
Malkuth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakoo View Post
Hmm, I'm not sure such a law passed, It would be outrageous that french was teached while german isn't. Well at least, english for sure heheehehe. And even then, between having some lessons and understanding people, there's a world between the two.

Anyway, what you say Malkuth is true, but society changes, what happened in the past won't necessarly happen in present mostly because what is doable on small scale is rarely doable once again in a larger scale.

We can hope though, and/or strive to hasten the change.
Indeed, at least we have to wait until the german election next year for european integration to resume

Anyway, from tomorrow I'll at least resume my effort to expand my french repertoire beyond: "je nais parle pas franchais"

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@Malkuth: Be somewhat careful with throwing fascist around. A lot of voices here are against the EU exactly due to culture differences, because the EU tries to apply a certain culture to all countries. This doesn't work, obviously, because the culture is so incredibly diverse even between a country such as Sweden and, say, Britain. Hell, it's quite different between the Scandinavian countries even.
EU does not try to erase cultural differences, unlike what historically did imperial England, Spain and France, as well as Prussia and Savoy during industrialization. And I do not give to fascists ownership to nationalist seclusion, there are also conservatives that cash on the unfounded phobia of losing ones cultural identity, as well as bankers and investors that take advantage of these fears. I may be focusing more on fascism because it is rising again all around Europe and unlike conservatives they are very dangerous.

Last edited by Malkuth; 2012-06-17 at 16:30.
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Old 2012-06-17, 16:15   Link #22034
sneaker
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Angela Merkel is the strongest opponent to european integration, in stark opposition to Helmut Kohl.
Only that it is Merkel's government that guarantees hundreds of Billions, while Kohl signed contracts that explicitly ruled out any help for stumbling members.

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Most Europeans of smaller countries speak 2 or 3 languages already, only France, Germany, Italy and Spain are the exception to this... oh! and a couple of islands close to Europe
Having some classes in school and "speaking" a foreign language are very very different things.

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I don't recall of this made it to European law, but back in 2001, we were told that European children were learning: English, French, and their native language(s).
It's definitely not a law. Most learn English in school, but again: that does not translate to proficiency.
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Old 2012-06-17, 16:40   Link #22035
Malkuth
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Originally Posted by sneaker View Post
Only that it is Merkel's government that guarantees hundreds of Billions, while Kohl signed contracts that explicitly ruled out any help for stumbling members.
He also did not blackmail member states into the brink of destruction, he disciplined his country's bankers, and cooperated with France and England, instead of dictating their policies. He also stimulated growth in a destroyed former communist country that joined the union, and along with the french social democrats set the course for a democratic unification.

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Having some classes in school and "speaking" a foreign language are very very different things.

It's definitely not a law. Most learn English in school, but again: that does not translate to proficiency.
And that's the reason why in large countries people have so many issues since they never get the chance to use the skills they earn.
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Old 2012-06-17, 16:50   Link #22036
sneaker
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He also did not blackmail member states into the brink of destruction, he disciplined his country's bankers, and cooperated with France and England, instead of dictating their policies. He also stimulated growth in a destroyed former communist country that joined the union, and along with the french social democrats set the course for a democratic unification.
So we are dictating others what to do?
If you go back to 2010 you'll see that Merkel opposed all bail-outs. Germany gave in to France, Italy etc., not the other way around. "More European integration" is nothing but a euphemism for more money transfer. If Greece does not want to cut spending, we are not forcing them. The thing is Greece is bankrupt, but somehow people think that everything could just go on and on like during the last decade if only Merkel wasn't such a drag and just gave them the money they feel they are entitled to.
Now we will have to save Spain's banks, next is Italy. Hopefully before the ESM gets ratified.

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And that's the reason why in large countries people have so many issues since they never get the chance to use the skills they earn.
You think Germans have more trouble with foreign languages than people in smaller countries like e.g. Greece? Doubtful to say the least.
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Old 2012-06-17, 17:02   Link #22037
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Language is (for better or worse) a non issue in the 21st century English has become the common language (much like latin first and greek later on) were. Not knowing english is akin to being illiterate. So the EU can use english to draft laws that apply to all members, it would be easier than, lets say, using Esperanto.
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Old 2012-06-17, 17:06   Link #22038
Malkuth
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So we are dictating others what to do?
If you go back to 2010 you'll see that Merkel opposed all bail-outs. Germany gave in to France, Italy etc., not the other way around. "More European integration" is nothing but a euphemism for more money transfer. If Greece does not want to cut spending, we are not forcing them. The thing is Greece is bankrupt, but somehow people think that everything could just go on and on like during the last decade if only Merkel wasn't such a drag and just gave them the money they feel they are entitled to.
Now we will have to save Spain's banks, next is Italy. Hopefully before the ESM gets ratified.
You and me, since I was paying taxes for the Greek bailout in both Greece and Germany. On the other hand, I was having some of the advantages that the German private sector enjoyed by that imbalance.

It's not fair for the German tax-payers... I agree, but it's also not fair for all F-PIIGS + Cyprus that have to do the same and disproportionally to Germans... and finally politicians begin to realize that the austerity imposed is magnifying the original problem.

When Germany needed to rebuild after WWII, all other European countries helped a lot more, learning from their destructive policies in mid-war and driving it to fascism. Now that the roles have finally turned around and Germany has the financial power to contribute, it would be long term to Germany's benefit to help instead of hinder.

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You think Germans have more trouble with foreign languages than people in smaller countries like e.g. Greece? Doubtful to say the least.
Well, 25 years in Greece, 6 in Germany, almost 1 in England and many trips to France, Sweden, Netherlands and Italy have set my opinion.

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Language is (for better or worse) a non issue in the 21st century English has become the common language (much like latin first and greek later on) were. Not knowing english is akin to being illiterate. So the EU can use english to draft laws that apply to all members, it would be easier than, lets say, using Esperanto.
LMAO, not by a long-shot. Also you got the historical order of greek/latin prevalence wrong, and they were followed by french before english.
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Old 2012-06-17, 17:09   Link #22039
sneaker
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Language is (for better or worse) a non issue in the 21st century English has become the common language (much like latin first and greek later on) were. Not knowing english is akin to being illiterate. So the EU can use english to draft laws that apply to all members, it would be easier than, lets say, using Esperanto.
Won't happen anytime soon. We are even having problems agreeing on only using three languages for European patents. Currently almost all EU stuff has to be translated into all 23 official languages. Frenchmen being proud of their language and German having the most native speakers doesn't help.
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Old 2012-06-17, 17:10   Link #22040
Anh_Minh
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He also did not blackmail member states into the brink of destruction, he disciplined his country's bankers, and cooperated with France and England, instead of dictating their policies. He also stimulated growth in a destroyed former communist country that joined the union, and along with the french social democrats set the course for a democratic unification.
I really don't feel it's a useful comparison. The situations are too different. We had such hopes for Europe back then. Now, we have to deal with the fact it somehow didn't protect us from a global economic crisis. That the mechanisms to do so aren't even in place.

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You and me, since I was paying taxes for the Greek bailout in both Greece and Germany. On the other hand, I was having some of the advantages that the German private sector enjoyed by that imbalance.

It's not fair for the German tax-payers... I agree, but it's also not fair for all F-PIIGS + Cyprus that have to do the same and disproportionally to Germans... and finally politicians begin to realize that the austerity imposed is magnifying the original problem.
True, but saying austerity on its own worsens the problem isn't the same as saying things can continue as they have.
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