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View Poll Results: Fate/Zero - Episode 24 Rating
Perfect 10 62 48.82%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 36 28.35%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 14 11.02%
7 out of 10 : Good 4 3.15%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 2.36%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 3 2.36%
4 out of 10 : Poor 3 2.36%
3 out of 10 : Bad 2 1.57%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 127. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-06-17, 11:20   Link #161
Archer
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The battle between Saber and Berserker did not deserve its own episode. Splitting it off into its own episode would affect the pacing considerably, simply because there isn't enough content to warrant it. Here are the options:

- Not include Kirei vs Kiritsugu in that episode, and have the episode be purely about Berserker and Saber (with backstory padding out most of the episode). At this point in the story though, Kiritsugu is already in the same building as Kirei is. Delaying the confrontation any further negates the tension of that battle, simply because they should be fighting already. It'll be even worse than the Rin episode, as the Rin episode wasn't injected in a tense situation where plot-critical things are occurring. It should not take two episodes after Kiritsugu receives the message to actually get to Kirei.

- Include Kirei vs Kiritsugu in that episode. Then you have two problems: If the fight is as long as it is now, then it definitely won't be the main focal point of the episode simply due to how short it actually is. Everything in the series had been leading up to this battle, and if it's treated as an afterthought it'd be a worse crime than excluding the Saber vs Berserker battle. However, this battle was never supposed to be long either, so artificially extending it somehow would end up simply messing up the pacing of that battle.

- Include Kirei vs Kiritsugu and Kiritsugu's conversation with the Grail. At this point, one wonders just how much of the Saber vs Berserker battle can fit in here. This is probably the only option that's acceptable, simply because it gives proper focus to what the story deems important. On the other hand, by cutting off here there's no tension leading up to the final episode. There's no urgency as all of the conflicts in this episode had been resolved. Ending it with Saber being commanded to destroy the Grail introduces one final conflict that demands resolution, thus increasing the tension.

In the end, I'd think that what they did here is the best option. Just because a show is aired on television doesn't mean the show necessarily has to plan around television limitations. When the timeslot removes the show from the schedule, the only way that people will be able to watch is through the distributed version (ie: the blu-ray version) anyway. It's better to plan around that and edit later, rather than to plan with that in mind and make suboptimal choices that will remain in the distributed version.
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Old 2012-06-17, 11:40   Link #162
blakstealth
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pardon my french.

Spoiler:
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Old 2012-06-17, 11:58   Link #163
MrTerrorist
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Originally Posted by blakstealth View Post
pardon my french.

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Spoiler for reply:
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Old 2012-06-17, 12:00   Link #164
blakstealth
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Okay. Thanks for the clarification, MrT. I don't feel as bad anymore.

Thinking back on it, I knew what it was, but it seems as though I got emotionally and mentally lost at that scene in the bedroom. That in turn yielded my post up there.
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Old 2012-06-17, 12:07   Link #165
Vicious108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archer View Post
In the end, I'd think that what they did here is the best option. Just because a show is aired on television doesn't mean the show necessarily has to plan around television limitations. When the timeslot removes the show from the schedule, the only way that people will be able to watch is through the distributed version (ie: the blu-ray version) anyway. It's better to plan around that and edit later, rather than to plan with that in mind and make suboptimal choices that will remain in the distributed version.
I don't really agree with the whole seeing each episode as a self-contained story with its own pacing rather than just one part of a larger whole, but, regardless of that, it seems to me like a much simpler solution would have been to leave the Saber and Gil scene for episode 25, thus ending this episode with Kiritsugu shooting Kirei, which would have at least allowed Saber vs Berserker three extra minutes.

And if you feel that wouldn't leave enough time for episode 25's content, well, they should have planned for 26 episodes then, or - even better - not wasted time on pointless and incongruous filler material for background characters like loli Rin.

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Originally Posted by blakstealth View Post
pardon my french.

Spoiler:
Irisviel was killed by Kirei in episode 22, so no, it wasn't her. That was, at best, her personality heavily corrupted by all the evils in the world.
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Old 2012-06-17, 12:07   Link #166
Grey
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Whoaaa, those preview lines. There's no way I don't know those preview lines. Looking forward to seeing what they put in the next episode.
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Old 2012-06-17, 12:25   Link #167
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If the first episode in the second season was double length, then this is technically a 26 episode series, just episode 14 and 15 were shown together as one episode. And they shifted the numbering since then.
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Old 2012-06-17, 12:27   Link #168
Aqua Knight
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Does anyone know the music playing at the beginning when Kirei and Kiri fought?
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Old 2012-06-17, 12:38   Link #169
Vicious108
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
If the first episode in the second season was double length, then this is technically a 26 episode series, just episode 14 and 15 were shown together as one episode. And tjey shifted the numbering since then.
Um, it was the first season's first episode that was double length, but that is beside the point. It doesn't matter whether the extra episode would have been episode 26 or 27, so much as it existing could have made doing Saber vs Berserker justice possible.
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Old 2012-06-17, 13:58   Link #170
ThereminVox
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Meanwhile, at ufotable...
"Hmmm... We seem to have run out of lithe, passively sympathetic mothers to strangle to death."
"What?? We still have two episodes left! Bring one back for an encore."

I am more pleased with Fate/Zero by orders of magnitude now than I was around the beginning of the second half. There really is some good conflict here, and the action is portrayed so much better in the two major fights here than it has been. They've wisely transitioned from "expensive-looking" to "slick" and it's made all the difference.

Episode 16 really was the turning point. The series hinges on buying into Kiritsugu as a character, and prior to his tense exchange with Saber, I couldn't find a foothold anywhere. He was important because everyone kept (loudly) declaring that he was important, and that was about it.

Back to 24, I was hoping we'd get a little bit more time with Kotomine and Gil, but it really was time to start wrapping things up. Archer is just a beast power-wise, even if it is out of necessity, the arc of his character having already been written. There's not much more they can do with Saber for now either, so it looks like we're steaming towards the conclusion of Kiritsugu's story.
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Old 2012-06-17, 15:19   Link #171
Kataryn
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Originally Posted by Aqua Knight View Post
Does anyone know the music playing at the beginning when Kirei and Kiri fought?
I don't think anyone will know the name of that song until the vol.2 or 3 OST is announced.
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Old 2012-06-17, 17:04   Link #172
Broskander
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I think the Berserker vs Saber fight was all right. It began in the last episode, and Kirei and Kiritsugu deserved the attention. Though it would've been nice to at least get some backflash scenes from Lancelot's time as Saber's right hand. But then again that story has been known for a long time.
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Old 2012-06-17, 17:54   Link #173
Archer
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
I don't really agree with the whole seeing each episode as a self-contained story with its own pacing rather than just one part of a larger whole, but, regardless of that, it seems to me like a much simpler solution would have been to leave the Saber and Gil scene for episode 25, thus ending this episode with Kiritsugu shooting Kirei, which would have at least allowed Saber vs Berserker three extra minutes.

And if you feel that wouldn't leave enough time for episode 25's content, well, they should have planned for 26 episodes then, or - even better - not wasted time on pointless and incongruous filler material for background characters like loli Rin.
How would removing the loli Rin episode help out in any way with the construction of the other 24 episodes? Secondly, how would it make sense to have the conclusion to the series span TWO episodes?

If you simply think about it, even if you think that episode 10 didn't need to be there, what would change even if episode 10 didn't exist? The only thing that would change is that the Kariya scene at the end of episode 10 would need to be put somewhere else instead, screwing over the pacing for the other episodes. Episode 11 is entirely standalone specifically because episode 10 exists, so your complaint about wasting time with background characters is entirely meaningless as that time is spent in its own standalone episode.

Additionally, Fate/Zero's episode count was not determined by any factor other than the pacing of the story. There was no broadcast restriction or producer requirement that dictated that Fate/Zero must be 25 episodes long or else. It's only 25 episodes because the staff believed that it could done in 25 episodes.

Like I keep saying, the amount of content cut in these episodes are not enough to warrant its own episode. Attempting to do so anyway would require padding to a significant degree, to the point where the pacing for the entire finale gets bogged down, instead of merely limiting the damage to one television broadcast episode. It's fine for Rin's episode since it's supposed to be breather between episode 9 and episode 11, but that won't work when you're supposed to be accelerating towards the climax of the series.
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Old 2012-06-17, 18:58   Link #174
taichi-kun
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Originally Posted by blakstealth View Post
pardon my french.

Spoiler:
There is no way the real iri would want the grial to kill all the humans for their own sake
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Old 2012-06-17, 20:08   Link #175
Vicious108
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Originally Posted by Archer View Post
How would removing the loli Rin episode help out in any way with the construction of the other 24 episodes?
Well, for starters, all I suggested was to remove the filler portions of the loli Rin episode, not erasing it from existence altogether. And it's pretty darn obvious how it would improve the pacing of future episodes: it would mean about 10 extra minutes of television time for scenes that actually matter, instead of, you know, having that time wasted on silly fanservice for pedophiles.

Quote:
Secondly, how would it make sense to have the conclusion to the series span TWO episodes?
Uh, the conclusion to a series is its final episode. Ergo, the first of those "TWO episodes" wouldn't be a conclusion. If you mean the conclusive arc, then that one's started as far back as episode 23 already.

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If you simply think about it, even if you think that episode 10 didn't need to be there, what would change even if episode 10 didn't exist? The only thing that would change is that the Kariya scene at the end of episode 10 would need to be put somewhere else instead, screwing over the pacing for the other episodes.
Screwing over the pacing for other episodes? Oh, you mean like they did for this episode?

If they had no problem rushing through freaking Arthur vs Lancelot, why would other scenes like Kariya's in episode 10 be so damn untouchable that they would warrant an entire episode of padding just to be told properly? That makes no sense, especially when the scenes that were skipped here were clearly more important than most of the ones that came before. The content speaks for itself and it is what the development team should take into consideration when deciding which scenes should be adapted in great detail and which scenes they can afford to sacrifice or gloss over for the big picture. And obviously Arthur vs Lancelot belongs to the former category, while loli Rin going around playing mahou shoujo and saving the day certainly belongs to the latter.

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Episode 11 is entirely standalone specifically because episode 10 exists, so your complaint about wasting time with background characters is entirely meaningless as that time is spent in its own standalone episode.
No, it isn't, because - and this might come as a shock to you - there is no such thing as a standalone episode in Fate/Zero, much less ENTIRELY standalone. I mean, seriously? Episode 11 is about a major plot thread that was introduced in episode 5 and was followed up on in various episodes after 11. How exactly is that standalone in any conceivable way?

Shows like Ghost in the Shell or Cowboy Bebop have standalone episodes; the main and overarching plot is only developed in certain episodes, whereas the rest are self-contained stories that can stand on their own. Fate/Zero, however, doesn't, since the entirety of the show consists of one overarching plot - the 4th Holy Grail War. By suggesting episode 11 is a standalone episode, you are implying one does not need prior viewing of any other episode to follow it, which obviously isn't the the case.

Quote:
Additionally, Fate/Zero's episode count was not determined by any factor other than the pacing of the story. There was no broadcast restriction or producer requirement that dictated that Fate/Zero must be 25 episodes long or else. It's only 25 episodes because the staff believed that it could done in 25 episodes.
If that's the case, then clearly they made a poor estimation, didn't they? Because Saber and Berserker's story couldn't be anywhere near "done", not properly anyway, in 25 episodes. Which is why they, you know, cut it.

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Like I keep saying, the amount of content cut in these episodes are not enough to warrant its own episode.
Well, maybe the fact that you keep having to say it over and over again is a sign that lots of other people feel differently about that.

Quote:
Attempting to do so anyway would require padding to a significant degree, to the point where the pacing for the entire finale gets bogged down, instead of merely limiting the damage to one television broadcast episode. It's fine for Rin's episode since it's supposed to be breather between episode 9 and episode 11, but that won't work when you're supposed to be accelerating towards the climax of the series.
The pacing for the entire finale has already been bogged down because a major portion of it was already blatantly rushed through. How is rushing through key scenes any better a solution than padding? Accelerating towards the climax doesn't equate to butchering certain scenes so we get to the finish ASAP! That's just stupid and effectively detracts from the finale because it makes it incomplete.

And, for the record, there wasn't even a need for a breather episode between episode 9 and 11. 9 was pretty chill and devoid of battle already, and the only reason the Rin episode even exists is because prepubescent little girls in revealing stockings sell.
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Old 2012-06-17, 20:32   Link #176
Grey
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Kariya's death was quite the anti-climax. And Iri's death faked me out because she had the Grail scene afterwards. I guess she "died" when the Grail copied her personality.

I thought the Arthur-Lancelot part was fine for anime-only. They showed a revelation and its impact. It boiled down to, "Saber found out one of her loyal knights hated her enough to be that Berserker."

I'm sure the LN has a lot more. But that's true of a lot of scenes because we don't get narration and internal monologue.
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Old 2012-06-17, 20:43   Link #177
DragoZERO
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You know... there's still three hours and forty-two minutes left on the countdown. Shouldn't we be down to only minutes? Hmmm...
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Old 2012-06-17, 21:09   Link #178
Vicious108
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I thought the Arthur-Lancelot part was fine for anime-only. They showed a revelation and its impact. It boiled down to, "Saber found out one of her loyal knights hated her enough to be that Berserker."
I haven't actually read the novel, but just from watching this episode and reading some of novel readers' complaints, I feel like a major piece of development for Saber's character arc was grossly glossed over as a result of the abridged Arthur vs Lancelot duel. And Saber in particular could really use some significant character moments and development, since she's such a reserved person who almost always goes out of her way to keep her (very interesting) dilemmas to herself.

Not only do I feel as if the lack of a proper Saber vs Berserker fight was a major loss in of itself, it also lessened the impact of Saber's state of mind during her confrontation with Archer. Regardless of what actually went on in her duel with Lancelot, it's obvious she was driven to despair by the whole thing, thus becoming more desperate than ever to get her hands on the Holy Grail (likely because Lancelot's state further illustrated and drove home how tragic the end result of her reign and ideals was).

So, when she finally sees the Grail within her grasp, only for Gilgamesh of all people to stand in her way, surely she is filled with the utmost rage and frustration, on top of the already very emotionally draining fight she had with Berserker. That's when Saber's eyes were apparently supposed to become golden out of anger, which would have been a nice touch, but even more important than that is what comes afterwards, which I feel could have been better conveyed in the anime version: she actually hopes that Kiritsugu will use a Command Spell in order to give her an advantage against Archer. In other words, she forgets her chivalrous code of honor and resorts to the foul play she'd always resented in other heroes like Berserker and Caster. She essentially becomes what she hates, all for the sake of finally getting her hands on the Grail. That's how desperate she is and how badly she needs it (and obviously witnessing Lancelot's miserable state went a long way in making her like that). It is a major moment for Saber's character, and one which would likely go a long way in making her character more appealing to those who generally find her dull and predictable.

Yet without a proper duel with Lancelot, and perhaps a few inner monologues during the final scene, the full weight of it isn't properly conveyed, and her character, who is supposed to be this "face" of the Fate franchise, really suffers as a result. It's a shame, which is why I really hope the BDs will try and rectify those blunders.
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Old 2012-06-17, 21:11   Link #179
KleenexGhost
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That fight at the beginning = MANLY!
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Old 2012-06-17, 21:14   Link #180
Reckoner
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Honestly if it was simply the monologue and speech that was cut out (Things I've heard cut out since I haven't read the LN), it wouldn't have bothered me so much, but the editing here was simply not good.

We transitioned from the fight scene of kiritsugu and kirie to Saber all of sudden stabbing berserker, without any build up or the like to the event. The last time we saw Saber on screen she was struggling massively emotionally and was being pushed to the brink and getting knocked around. HOW THE HELL DID WE GET HERE?

Also suddenly we saw Kariya was all of a sudden just dead and falls over, no final thoughts or parting words. Ryousuke got a better send off than he did, and he's been a much more major character! I mean c'mon now.

This simply does not serve. I don't know how Ufotable could've paced this series better in the end (It is hard to fit it into TV), but the TV series is not the full experience and I think anyone who is going to relegate themselves to just the TV series is most likely going to miss out if they don't check out the finished product.

It's still disappointing that the loli rin episode did in fact affect this show in the end because I would've gladly cut 10 minutes from that for this episode.
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