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Old 2012-06-15, 23:13   Link #81
sayde
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Perhaps the answer to your question could help play into explaining exactly why Isshin sealed his shinigami powers away. Another thing worth mentioning is that Ryuuken seems to have just as many secrets and ulterior motives for some of his actions as Isshin does. Take for instance the issue you brought up. Even though Ryuuken helped Uryuu get his powers back under the condition that he stay away from Ichigo, you almost get the feeling that he had to know all along that Uryuu wasn't really going to obey that promise. I say this because Ryuuken has proven that he's an extremely smart and perceptive person (at least when it comes to matters regarding his son). He's great at predicting Uryuu's future motives, actions, and behaviors. So why make him promise in the first place if he already could assume the outcome? To test his resolve?

Whats more curious is that despite the promise he made Uryuu take, Ryuuken himself was obviously on somewhat friendly terms with Isshin for years--even after he discovered that Isshin regained his shinigami powers. So it begs the question as to why Ryuuken would push his son into staying away from shinigami while continuing to stay in contact with a shinigami himself.

Last edited by sayde; 2012-06-16 at 00:50.
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Old 2012-06-15, 23:37   Link #82
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The quincies could have very well staged Masaki's death to look like she died from a hollow thus punishing Masaki and Isshin's affair. It would also explain Kubo's implication that Masaki didn't actually die from Grand Fisher.
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Old 2012-06-16, 00:03   Link #83
Chiisai Kuma
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he's a theory . Masaki is ryuuken's sister BUT she held no interest in becoming a quincy or had no powers quincy wise. She could have possibly been disowned or left out of quincy matters. I think its possible for the ability to manipulate reshi could have been passed on to ichigo
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Old 2012-06-16, 02:07   Link #84
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Originally Posted by Chiisai Kuma View Post
he's a theory . Masaki is ryuuken's sister BUT she held no interest in becoming a quincy or had no powers quincy wise. She could have possibly been disowned or left out of quincy matters. I think its possible for the ability to manipulate reshi could have been passed on to ichigo
The thing is, I thought Quincy powers aren't genetic. They are taught which wouldn't give Ichigo powers from the start.

Of course I could be wrong. If Ichigo is a Shinigami/Quincy/Human/Hollow character I think that Kubo just kind of adds to the plot depending on what drug he'd taken that week then.
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Old 2012-06-16, 10:21   Link #85
ronin myael
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
Perhaps the answer to your question could help play into explaining exactly why Isshin sealed his shinigami powers away. Another thing worth mentioning is that Ryuuken seems to have just as many secrets and ulterior motives for some of his actions as Isshin does. Take for instance the issue you brought up. Even though Ryuuken helped Uryuu get his powers back under the condition that he stay away from Ichigo, you almost get the feeling that he had to know all along that Uryuu wasn't really going to obey that promise. I say this because Ryuuken has proven that he's an extremely smart and perceptive person (at least when it comes to matters regarding his son). He's great at predicting Uryuu's future motives, actions, and behaviors. So why make him promise in the first place if he already could assume the outcome? To test his resolve?

Whats more curious is that despite the promise he made Uryuu take, Ryuuken himself was obviously on somewhat friendly terms with Isshin for years--even after he discovered that Isshin regained his shinigami powers. So it begs the question as to why Ryuuken would push his son into staying away from shinigami while continuing to stay in contact with a shinigami himself.
hmmm... nice theory. assuming your theory is correct, if masaki is indeed a quincy, then it would explain why she was attacked by a hollow. she might not have possessed powers and skill of ishida's level but she could still have some amount of reiatsu, enough to be attacked by a hollow when she was pregnant with ichigo, thus giving ichigo fullbring abilities.

isshin is definitely a captain-class shinigami, and yet very few shinigami knew him. even the name kurosaki didn't ring a bell. if isshin had been a formidable shinigami captain in gotei 13 then ichigo's last name would have alerted them to the possibility of him being his son. there was a theory about him being part of squad zero. i think that would explain why he's so powerful and yet so obscure. as for why he left, it might have something to do with the quincy and the blood war between them and the shinigami. maybe isshin fell in love with one and no longer wished to take part in that war. maybe that's why he and ryuuken became "friends".
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Old 2012-06-16, 10:40   Link #86
sayde
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Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
hmmm... nice theory. assuming your theory is correct, if masaki is indeed a quincy, then it would explain why she was attacked by a hollow. she might not have possessed powers and skill of ishida's level but she could still have some amount of reiatsu, enough to be attacked by a hollow when she was pregnant with ichigo, thus giving ichigo fullbring abilities.

isshin is definitely a captain-class shinigami, and yet very few shinigami knew him. even the name kurosaki didn't ring a bell. if isshin had been a formidable shinigami captain in gotei 13 then ichigo's last name would have alerted them to the possibility of him being his son. there was a theory about him being part of squad zero. i think that would explain why he's so powerful and yet so obscure.
Sounds simple enough, yet plausible enough to work.

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Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
as for why he left, it might have something to do with the quincy and the blood war between them and the shinigami. maybe isshin fell in love with one and no longer wished to take part in that war. maybe that's why he and ryuuken became "friends".
The only possible issues I see with this have to do with the timeline. The eradication of the Quincy's was supposed to have taken place 200 years ago. So if Isshin partook in that war and got involved with Misaki and Ryuuken then, that would make Misaki and Ryuuken too old. With that said, I don't see why we can't take your theory and modify a little bit. If Isshin really was apart of the old blood war, it might be more plausible to believe that he defected from the war for reasons that had nothing to do with love. Perhaps he went AWOL simply because he disagreed with the slaughter of the Quincy's and the way it was being handled. And perhaps meeting Ryuuken and Misaki was merely a result of remaining in the human world and staying in contact with the Ishida clan the entire time.

*edit*
One more thing I'd like to add on a unrelated note. I just remembered that in chapter 490, Opie claimed that it was impossible for his arrows to be stronger than Uryuu Ishida's. So does that foreshadow the possibility of their being something genetic about Quincy abilities, growth, and strength after all?

Last edited by sayde; 2012-06-16 at 11:01.
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Old 2012-06-16, 11:04   Link #87
ronin myael
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
The only possible issues I see with this have to do with the timeline. The eradication of the Quincy's was supposed to have taken place 200 years ago. So if Isshin partook in that war and got involved with Misaki and Ryuuken then, that would make Misaki and Ryuuken too old. With that said, I don't see why we can't take your theory and modify a little bit. If Isshin really was apart of the old blood war, it might be more plausible to believe that he defected from the war for reasons that had nothing to do with love. Perhaps he went AWOL simply because he disagreed with the slaughter of the Quincy's and the way it was being handled. And perhaps meeting Ryuuken and Misaki was merely a result of remaining in the human world and staying in contact with the Ishida clan the entire time.
the war might have happened 200 years ago but who's to say that soul society didn't try to get rid of the surviving quincy? we all know that the war wasn't successful in rendering the quincy extinct. maybe isshin was part of a group that was tasked to eradicate remaining quincy that included ryuuken and masaki. if soul society did try to eliminate all the quincy, adults and children alike, then it would further explain why the vandenreich harbor so much anger towards the shinigami. isshin might actually have committed treason against soul society and tried to hide/protect these remaining quincy. this could also be the reason why he had to use his final getsuga tenshou and lost all his shinigami powers in the process. it's just a theory though.
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Old 2012-06-16, 11:14   Link #88
sayde
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Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
the war might have happened 200 years ago but who's to say that soul society didn't try to get rid of the surviving quincy? we all know that the war wasn't successful in rendering the quincy extinct. maybe isshin was part of a group that was tasked to eradicate remaining quincy that included ryuuken and masaki. if soul society did try to eliminate all the quincy, adults and children alike, then it would further explain why the vandenreich harbor so much anger towards the shinigami.
I'd have an easier time believing that if it wasn't for Soken Ishida's existence. Clearly, before Ryuuken and Misaki ever existed, this guy was not hiding from shinigami. He was out in the open constantly trying to negotiate with them instead. And while he never had any success, its clear that the shinigami were never trying to hunt and kill him and his family. Its also never implied that his negotiation attempts ended in violence. So after the war, it seems that the Ishida clan at least was left alone in peace. Maybe a secret task force may have been in charge of exterminating Quincy clans deemed as potentially dangerous threats. But not all the clans could have been targets.
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Old 2012-06-16, 12:26   Link #89
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BTW, it's Masaki, Sayde.
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Old 2012-06-16, 12:47   Link #90
sayde
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My mistake.
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Old 2012-06-16, 13:14   Link #91
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BTW, it's Masaki, Sayde.
Ultimate troll post
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Old 2012-06-16, 17:50   Link #92
Alchemist007
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But troll I do not, tis simply a correction for good guy Sayde. I do not wish for fellers to be ignorant of their mistakes, least they be intentional.

Ichisaki Kurogo for example is no mistake of mine, but used it, I have
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Old 2012-06-16, 19:27   Link #93
Chiisai Kuma
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Old 2012-06-17, 23:04   Link #94
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Been playing too much DA:O.
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Old 2012-06-17, 23:49   Link #95
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I'd like to point out something I see here, regarding the theories of Isshin defecting the quincy extermination due to love.

Quincy Extermination - 200 years in the past
Average human lives at about 60 to 70 years. Unless Quincy have drastically longer life spans its just not viable.. Also, unless he had a very small role or something.. He either defected before TBTP, or after (in which he wasn't a captain, or had to be part of 0 squad, during TBTP). Due to Urahara knowing him so personally, I'd like to assume that either Isshin defected and later met Urahara, or when Isshin defected Urahara was already exiled.

This leads me to assume that it's most likely he was actually a zero squad member, which is the easiest solution to him never appearing within SS. Due to Isshin knowing about the final getsuga tenshou, it leads me to believe him using that was the reason he lost his powers (almost seems like a duh tbh)

Now, idk about you, but if Isshin was a Squad 0 member and was forced to use the final getsuga tenshou, that means he was fighting someone retardedly strong.. yet we have no idea who it was. The only opponent I can assume to match that, are other Squad 0 members themselves. This means he was disobeying an order he didn't agree with, leading to defection.

Now, taking all evidence into account (him knowing Ryuuken personally, knowing Urahara), it's like that his disobeying orders indeed was related to a shinigami attack on quincies. It almost seems as though his defection happened between TBTP and current timeline, it's fair to assume 50 years before bleach 'started'.
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Old 2012-06-18, 00:18   Link #96
Alchemist007
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Too many possibilities, but unless Isshin was born into Zero squad or something, it's interesting that Ichigo's last name wasn't a reminder to old man Yama. The logical explanation being that Kubo didn't plan this far ahead back then and so never took it into account.
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Old 2012-06-18, 05:02   Link #97
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Or that Isshin changed his last name when he became a human? It's also possible he took his wife's last name. It happens in Japan sometimes depending on which family has the higher status. I have several male coworkers who have married and changed their last name after being "adopted" into their wife's family because that family had no male heirs.
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Old 2012-06-18, 10:19   Link #98
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Anyone remember than in Chapter 26, Isshin slipped when saying how long Masaki was dead for?

Isshin says 10 years before Ichigo correcting him to 6 years. Would this have plot relevance?
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Old 2012-06-18, 15:10   Link #99
sayde
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That's an interesting observation. Though after going back and revewing that chapter myself, it's kind of hard to tell whether Kubo was trying to be funny, or alude to something more than that.
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Old 2012-06-18, 15:35   Link #100
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^or if it was simply Kubo slipping up not Isshin
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