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Old 2012-06-17, 16:20   Link #4061
Koveras Alvane
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Is Hayate a glass cannon? That wouldn't much sense, given barrier and field defenses are what the barrier jacket is composed of and the magic at her disposal.
Nah, it's canon. Refer to StrikerS manga, chapter 10, page 17, where Hayate admits to have no real grasp over her power. She has the energy but she can't control it, especially not in fast-paced combat like Nanoha and Fate.
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Old 2012-06-17, 16:45   Link #4062
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And barrier jackets have been breached before, as we saw with Nanoha when she was 12.
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Old 2012-06-17, 17:01   Link #4063
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Is Hayate a glass cannon? That wouldn't much sense, given barrier and field defenses are what the barrier jacket is composed of and the magic at her disposal.
Her spells at the lowest setting = carpet bombing, and at the highest settings = Ea (aka destroy reality)/ tactical nuke. However, her spells have long casting times and she never got out of the wheelchair (crappy physical stamina) so yeah, she's a glass cannon.
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Old 2012-06-17, 17:11   Link #4064
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koveras Alvane View Post
Nah, it's canon. Refer to StrikerS manga, chapter 10, page 17, where Hayate admits to have no real grasp over her power. She has the energy but she can't control it, especially not in fast-paced combat like Nanoha and Fate.
But that's not exactly the same as being a glass cannon. Hayate is right in that she is most suited to standing back and firing off big spells... but that's going offensive. I presume that if she switched into a defensive mode with barriers and shields, she'd be well-protected (perhaps Yuuno-levels of defense or more). It's just that she'd have to essentially switch off all offense to do it, because she has to concentrate hard in how she channels her power.

Edit: To clarify, we've seen Nanoha and Fate do offensive and defensive spells simultaneously, as well as support spells. Hayate's spells would be stronger, but more limited as to what she's doing at any one time.
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Old 2012-06-17, 19:00   Link #4065
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
And barrier jackets have been breached before, as we saw with Nanoha when she was 12.
Clearly barrier jackets can be breached, but that's as asinine as calling Signum or Nanoha a glass cannon because of it. Signum took a direct hit from Striker Stars and Divine Buster with just her barrier jacket. Came out just fine. Depending on how strong you are, barrier jackets are sturdy. Hayate should be capable of defending herself as well as Nanoha and others in terms of her shield/barrier/etc.'s durability.

Quote:
But that's not exactly the same as being a glass cannon. Hayate is right in that she is most suited to standing back and firing off big spells... but that's going offensive. I presume that if she switched into a defensive mode with barriers and shields, she'd be well-protected (perhaps Yuuno-levels of defense or more). It's just that she'd have to essentially switch off all offense to do it, because she has to concentrate hard in how she channels her power.
Pretty much this, but her defenses would be superior to Yuuno's. Nanoha, at the start of A's, could breach his defenses with a powerful spell, but Nanoha herself in StrikerS could defend herself from a more powerful attack with Round Shield. Maybe Yuuno improved, lol. Hayate > Nanoha? I'm pretty sure. The fact that Curren could just stab her with a regular 'ol Katana is an impressive feat, not any knock to Hayate.

Last edited by VezSketch; 2012-06-17 at 19:19.
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Old 2012-06-17, 19:38   Link #4066
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Actually, in the manga, Nanoha did NOT, in fact, breach Yuuno's defenses...

She pierced a field that Yuuno was using to keep the Starlight Breaker Plus from being seen by normal people.

The only other time Yuuno's barrier was destroyed was because he was trying to contain Nanoha, Fate and Hayate's full destructive power.

If you notice, there wasn't too much damage from the end result of all of that.

And Hayate flat-out says, in a fight, Caro could, back in StrikerS, beat her straight up without using any summons. And by the end of StrikerS, Caro is A+ in ranking. Comparable to Ginga and Yuuno, both of whom are A rank. (In fact, Caro's only A+ because of her experience in the field.)

Hayate also stated, just before that, that her only useful spells are bombardment spells, she's useless for doing smaller spells, and while no one can match her in long-range power, that's it, she's next-to-useless by herself in any other field.

Granted, she probably forgot about the freezing field she did at the start of StrikerS, but...

Any time Hayate's about to use magic, everyone clears the *bleep* out.

And, yes, that includes Nanoha and Fate.

Hayate has a TON of magic, no one denies this, but it is stated that her magic is geared offensively and for one thing.

She has to stand still, chant the spell, AND have a magical array going before she can fire any spell.

As you saw in Force, when she got taken out because she couldn't put any magic into defense.
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Old 2012-06-17, 19:46   Link #4067
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Does cloning copy the linker core perfectly too or is it not preserved?

How does RH recognise her user? Is she gene-locked, locked to the linker core "signature", or...?
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Old 2012-06-17, 20:13   Link #4068
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
As you saw in Force, when she got taken out because she couldn't put any magic into defense.
Actually, I'd say there is wiggle room to say that it was either that, or that she didn't see Curren coming, so didn't have ample time to switch to defensive measures. As I mentioned above, there is nothing precluding her from forming shields and barriers to block attacks; it's just probably more difficult, given the concentration she has to do to control her mana.

Anyway, I think this conversation is going off track. Bottom line is: we don't know. There is ample wiggle room to write Hayate various ways, which wouldn't conflict with canon.

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Originally Posted by WarpObscura View Post
Does cloning copy the linker core perfectly too or is it not preserved?
Feels like a crapshoot, although in the movie, Precia says Fate has the same magical style. My guess is that it is possible, depending on how good the cloner is.

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How does RH recognise her user? Is she gene-locked, locked to the linker core "signature", or...?
Never said specifically, so pick your poison. How do you recognize the people you know?
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Old 2012-06-18, 00:49   Link #4069
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I never saw Hayate as a glass canon. just very unskilled.

Her barrier jacket might be at least average but against the people she's dealing with...

let just say if she get into a close range fight one on one. Her opponent will be using her as a punching bag and she won't know what to do to get out of it.

Now her PSP-verse on the other hand is as good, if not better, than Nanoha.
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Old 2012-06-18, 01:22   Link #4070
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarpObscura View Post
Does cloning copy the linker core perfectly too or is it not preserved?
Well, all clones that we have seen so far were either Artificial Mages (Fate, Erio) or cyborgs (Uno), and giving them a potent Linker Core is kinda the whole point of making them. I do recall, for instance, that despite Precia's mad magic powerz, Alicia only had mediocre potential, so that definitely got boosted for Fate, since that's what Precia was making her for.

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Originally Posted by ZeroIchiNi View Post
Now her PSP-verse on the other hand is as good, if not better, than Nanoha.
That's because Eins is there to coach her in using her own Linker Core.
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Old 2012-06-18, 02:09   Link #4071
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Precia was trying to create a perfect copy of Alicia, she was never created with the intent of boosting her powers.
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Old 2012-06-18, 02:18   Link #4072
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Precia was trying to create a perfect copy of Alicia, she was never created with the intent of boosting her powers.
Ah, right, forgot that. However, it was Fate's magical talent that made her realize she is not Alicia.
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Old 2012-06-18, 03:53   Link #4073
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Hayate is also surprisingly sturdier than we tought, she seems to be getting the opposite as the wolkenritter. While the Wolks are getting weaker over time, Hayate seems to be getting stronger, after being impalled by Curren is mentioned that Hayate's fast recovery seems to came from the fact her body is now enhaced by her Linker core fusion with Ein's which allows her to raise from bed from a backstabbing within days, unlike Signum who took over two months. Probably in the future the wolks will leave the battlefield like Arf did whent their powers decrease enough for them not being able to keep with others and Hayate's powers rise enough to stop needing their protection anyway.

On the Barrier Jacket discussion, it seems the BJ's can vary in strenght at least according to the user. Signum withstanding Nanoha's SSA was treated as pretty hardcore stuff by the people present (Dieci even mentioned being taken down by Nanoha with much less than that despite the fact she was protected by AMF from both her cyborg body and the cradle at the time). But well, that was back on StrikerS where the wolks still had a decent amount of superhuman resillence and durability (Vita VS.The Cradle comes to mind).
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Old 2012-06-18, 06:42   Link #4074
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Actually, in the manga, Nanoha did NOT, in fact, breach Yuuno's defenses...

She pierced a field that Yuuno was using to keep the Starlight Breaker Plus from being seen by normal people.
I'm talking about a sound stage ....... It's a statement by Nanoha, hence the "said" and not "did" when I mentioned it.

Quote:
And Hayate flat-out says, in a fight, Caro could, back in StrikerS, beat her straight up without using any summons. And by the end of StrikerS, Caro is A+ in ranking. Comparable to Ginga and Yuuno, both of whom are A rank. (In fact, Caro's only A+ because of her experience in the field.)
Yeah, I know and that also made little sense. The Forwards are nothing impressive in StrikerS. Even with the little feats Hayate has in StrikerS, it doesn't make sense Caro could beat her without summons. In Force ... well, Caro doesn't seem as powerful as the rest of them.

Quote:
Hayate has a TON of magic, no one denies this, but it is stated that her magic is geared offensively and for one thing.
Yeah, creating barriers are hard ... I mean, what? Being geared offensively doesn't mean she has absolutely no talent in creating simple barriers with the amount of magic she has. Hayate can't even make a decent barrier jacket comparable to people she's superior to ... Really? Come off that.

Quote:
As you saw in Force, when she got taken out because she couldn't put any magic into defense.
You don't have to put more magic into a barrier jacket. And kind of doubt it was optimized for combat. This is a real unknown, though, as said before. Yeah, Curren did stab Hayate but she stomped Vita as well ... and Cypha, Curren's inferior, cut a mountain sized iceberg just prior, so she wasn't lacking in physical strength. Hayate has never been in a proper fight ... Wow, that's actually true. Way to drop the ball.

Quote:
Signum withstanding Nanoha's SSA was treated as pretty hardcore stuff by the people present (Dieci even mentioned being taken down by Nanoha with much less than that despite the fact she was protected by AMF from both her cyborg body and the cradle at the time)
Strike Stars > Exelion Buster > S+ Rank > A's SLB. Love the power creep.
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Old 2012-06-18, 06:55   Link #4075
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Never said specifically, so pick your poison. How do you recognize the people you know?
I meant as a security measure against illegal usage. Though if you want to flip it, you could have intrusive DRM - Let's say Nanoha gets cloned or injury forces her into a GitS-style full body prosthetic, will she still be able to use RH?
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Old 2012-06-18, 07:05   Link #4076
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarpObscura View Post
I meant as a security measure against illegal usage. Though if you want to flip it, you could have intrusive DRM - Let's say Nanoha gets cloned or injury forces her into a GitS-style full body prosthetic, will she still be able to use RH?
Well, apparently, RH is at least password protected. :P
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Old 2012-06-18, 11:19   Link #4077
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Another question: Fate was using Jet Zanber, you know the thing that broke through one of the Defense Program's barriers, as a regular 'ol melee attack in StrikerS, right? I mean, Tre and Sette were putting up a fight although the AMF was slowing Fate down. And then she kind of just one hit ko'd them with her Riot form(s). They were S+ Rank Combat Cyborgs and pretty impressive in their own right. Now, in Force, Riot Blade and Zanber II didn't OHK Cypha or DeVille.

An example of power creep? It's pretty subtle. Nanoha, Fate, Signum, and Hayate seem to be far more powerful than everyone else in Special Duty Section 6. Vita gets owned too much to be mentioned with them and doesn't have the feats to suggest she's as strong, but she's much stronger than the juniors, too.

Last edited by VezSketch; 2012-06-18 at 11:30.
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Old 2012-06-18, 11:33   Link #4078
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^That's mainly because:

a) While 5th Gen Bardiche have a far better performance than AEC-Equipements it's still forced to nerf Fate's powers somewhat when she fights under the effects of the Eclipse so her attacks, while still strong and effective, aren't as powerfull as always and...

b) Cypha and Deville are probably the two members of the Huckebein family with the highest resillence. Two swords has been broken after hitting Cypha's body (one of them a divider) while Deville have his Armorize power who takes his defenses Up to Eleven. After activating that Fate didn't even managed to scratch him.
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Old 2012-06-18, 13:32   Link #4079
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Hayate is also surprisingly sturdier than we tought, she seems to be getting the opposite as the wolkenritter. While the Wolks are getting weaker over time, Hayate seems to be getting stronger, after being impalled by Curren is mentioned that Hayate's fast recovery seems to came from the fact her body is now enhaced by her Linker core fusion with Ein's which allows her to raise from bed from a backstabbing within days, unlike Signum who took over two months. Probably in the future the wolks will leave the battlefield like Arf did whent their powers decrease enough for them not being able to keep with others and Hayate's powers rise enough to stop needing their protection anyway.
Yes, because this:



Is clearly just as hard to heal from as this:



It is quite clear that Signum's greater restoration period was simply because her wounds were far more severe by a rather sizable margin, not because 'the Wolkies are getting weaker while Hayate is getting stronger.'

Please Aki, this is the FAQ thread. At least in this thread, stick to facts, not your biased, unsupported theories.
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Old 2012-06-18, 13:49   Link #4080
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Please Aki, this is the FAQ thread. At least in this thread, stick to facts, not your biased, unsupported theories.
Ok, maybe the comparission with the wolks was a bit too much but it was in fact stated that Hayate's body is now much sturdier than before thanks to her unique condition, she even said some people refer to her as a "living lost logia".
.
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