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Old 2012-06-18, 22:57   Link #21
Midonin
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I think my perspective is flipped in this regard. I'm fine with the hero of a harem series being the way he is. It's part of the building blocks of the genre. Just as you expect villains to monologue their plan, the hero also has a set of personality traits that are necessary for the story to work. My problem lies more with the romance overtaking what is often a fairly interesting overplot. I understand romance is also a major plot in these things, but the premises these series set up are often pretty fun to explore in themselves. This may be why I lean more towards comedy-based series (and/or episodes). Worldbuilding and character building exist in more dimensions than the romantic.
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Old 2012-06-18, 22:58   Link #22
SilverSyko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
You do realize that yuri shows are marketed to the same desires of horny teenage otaku right ?
I don't watch pure yuri anime though.

But if you mean the examples of all-female shows I listed, it just depends how you look at it personally. For example, I'm not a guy who hangs an imaginary "lesbian couple" sign over every scene where two girls hug each other, though I imagine there are a lot who do. I personally just see it as a close friendship between girls.

Not to mention unlike harem shows, there aren't any characters a male otaku could project themselves onto in anime with an all-female cast.
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Old 2012-06-18, 22:59   Link #23
Midonin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
Not to mention unlike harem shows, there aren't any characters a male otaku could project themselves onto in anime with an all-female cast.
And this goes back to the same point brought up in the magical girl thread. A character does not necessarily need to be your gender for you to see yourself in them.
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Old 2012-06-18, 23:09   Link #24
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I prefer neither over the other. All female just doesn't connect to me. At least have a supporting guy in there somewhere so I have someone I can sorta relate to. I also don't like that some all girl ones tend to force yuri, just because there's only girls there doesn't mean they all should feel the need to make out with each other, down everyone's throats or have them dressed in very stupid and overly revealing outfits. Though I wouldn't be against watching an all girl one that doesn't feel the need to force a yuri relationship, though I have nothing against non-forced ones, or having them dressed in only thongs/ect and their boob bouncing at every little movement. That's just annoying.

As for Harem... I dislike harem because most of the characters will almost always get shafted in favor of the "Favorite". Harem usually ends without a real conclusion with the status Que staying the same. When I watch Anime I don't want to be left with a cliffhanger, unless they're doing another season, or the main cast staying the exact same as the anime started. I personally love growth and to see a character at the end and notice how much they've changed since the beginning.

I also prefer that if they're doing a love thing they should focus on the main pair and not a half a dozen girls fighting over a guy like he's the best slab of meat in the world. Even than most animes can't even handle the main pair well let alone a harem setting.
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Old 2012-06-18, 23:29   Link #25
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
I don't watch pure yuri anime though.

But if you mean the examples of all-female shows I listed, it just depends how you look at it personally. For example, I'm not a guy who hangs an imaginary "lesbian couple" sign over every scene where two girls hug each other, though I imagine there are a lot who do. I personally just see it as a close friendship between girls.
Yes but it's still marketed to 'Horny teenage otakus' as you put it

You can justify all day what you're actually watching the show for, but in the end yuri shows are just like any other sexual fantasies- alots of beautiful girls, but this time- no other penis in sight!

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Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
Not to mention unlike harem shows, there aren't any characters a male otaku could project themselves onto in anime with an all-female cast.
Does it actually matter? In the first place I have never met anyone that says- "Yup, that's me over there!", have you ?

If they really want to project themselves, not having to put themselves in the role of another character seems easier... Or rather, not having a character to project themselves wouldn't really matter.
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Old 2012-06-18, 23:53   Link #26
0utf0xZer0
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Like Midonin, I enjoy many shows with little male presence. And on the surface I'm inclined to say that I prefer no male lead casts due to stuff like Madoka, Taisho Yakyuu Musume, and Hanasaku Iroha, then I remember that harem includes stuff like Bakemonogatari and Sola - and if you stretch the definition a bit, even stuff like Kure-nai and Haruhi. Overall I'd give "no male lead" an edge when harem is defined strictly and harem the edge when harem is defined loosely.

A few other points I'd like to make:
1) Despite the fact I embrace shows with little male presence like K-On! and Hidamari Sketch, I actually like it when they include some guys too, particularly for romance potential - Hanasaku Iroha comes to mind as it's a seinen whose major characters are female but it has male romantic interests too.
2) I'd tend to say my preferences in romance anime tend towards non-harem romances of both single and multi couple varieties. Examples include EF, Iriya no Sora UFO no Natsu, Otome Youkai Zakuro, Ano Natsu de Matteru, Inu x Boku SS, etc.
3) Frankly, both harem and no male lead shows have tropes that can aggravate and flops mixed in with the good stuff. Just because I like many shows from each category doesn't mean they I can't find fault in them.
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Old 2012-06-19, 00:04   Link #27
SilverSyko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
You can justify all day what you're actually watching the show for, but in the end yuri shows are just like any other sexual fantasies- alots of beautiful girls, but this time- no other penis in sight!
It's kind of disappointing that you seem to consider any anime with an all-female cast as a "yuri show".

Quote:
Does it actually matter? In the first place I have never met anyone that says- "Yup, that's me over there!", have you ?
Nope, but can you say for certain that there aren't those kinds of people out there? I'm quite doubtful.

Quote:
In the first place If they really want to project themselves, not having to put themselves in the role of another character seems easier.
Then explain why the majority of harem protagonists are lame wimpy/nerdy guys who realistically could never have so many attractive girls fall for him instead of ones that are courageous, capable and reliable? I think it's because that's what a large amount of the fanbase of those shows would be as well no?
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Old 2012-06-19, 00:21   Link #28
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
It's kind of disappointing that you seem to consider any anime with an all-female cast as a "yuri show".
Me? I'm only one man

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
Nope, but can you say for certain that there aren't those kinds of people out there? I'm quite doubtful.
You mean like vampires and werewolves? Something that nobody have ever seen, yet people are convinced they exist due to various sightings ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
Then explain why the majority of harem protagonists are lame wimpy/nerdy guys who realistically could never have so many attractive girls fall for him? I think it's because that's what a large amount of the fanbase of those shows would be as well no?
Actually the recent trend of harem protagonists have moved pass the weaker varieties from the earlier 2000s. Most Male Protagonists are now proper characters themselves as oppose to their visual novel hollow shells, so I guess that means a large amount of the fanbase are now hidden badasses ?
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Old 2012-06-19, 00:25   Link #29
gsilver
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Harem! I like to see if the male with no personality hold hands with my favorite stereotype of female character by the end of the series!


Joking aside, the harem has to be one of the worst genres out there.
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Old 2012-06-19, 00:27   Link #30
0utf0xZer0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
Then explain why the majority of harem protagonists are lame wimpy/nerdy guys who realistically could never have so many attractive girls fall for him? I think it's because that's what a large amount of the fanbase of those shows would be as well no?
I think this is more a case of writers having a slightly skewed vision of an "everyman" than writing with an audience stand in in mind. I occasionally play visual novels where you're supposed to inhabit a character and I never find myself thinking that the player character is "me" - there's simply too many differences in personality, situation, etc. I do, however, often get quite involved in their story. Other players I've met share similar sentiments and I would think we'd be much more prone to self-insertion than anime fans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
You mean like vampires and werewolves? Something that nobody have ever seen, yet people are convinced they exist due to various sightings ?
I somehow doubt that most of the people who watched the Yosuga no Sora anime shared the protagonists shotesque cute looks.
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Old 2012-06-19, 00:37   Link #31
SilverSyko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
You mean like vampires and werewolves? Something that nobody have ever seen, yet people are convinced they exist due to various sightings ?
I get the impression you're trying to be a "Mr. Funny Guy". Equating supernatural entities with severely negative psychological conditioning? Suit yourself then.

Quote:
Actually the recent trend of harem protagonists have moved pass the weaker varieties from the earlier 2000s. Most Male Protagonists are now proper characters themselves as oppose to their visual novel hollow shells, so I guess that means a large amount of the fanbase are now hidden badasses ?
I've already seen lame harem protagonists in recent years so this really doesn't help convince me. Just because heroic protagonists are becoming more common doesn't change the fact the genre is still being used for wish fulfillment and is full of tired cliches.
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Old 2012-06-19, 00:56   Link #32
Chaos2Frozen
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[EDIT]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
I've already seen lame harem protagonists in recent years. Just because heroic protagonists are becoming more common doesn't change the fact the genre is still being used for wish fulfillment and is full of tired cliches.
Wish fulfillment... Isn't that the case with EVERY work of fiction?

Don't get me started on cliches...

Last edited by Chaos2Frozen; 2012-06-19 at 01:24. Reason: Removed the first part, just seems like i'm baiting...
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Old 2012-06-19, 01:23   Link #33
Kyuu
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In these days.

The thing about Harem. It's been so done so many times to death, ever since Tenchi Muyo -- there's hardly you can really expect more about of this genre. That's especially when you have a harem on steroids in Negima.

The All-Girls thing. It's relatively new. So, there's plenty of ways to explore this. You have the group of 4-5 girls, doing ordinary things (Lucky Star, K-ON, etc.). Then you have big groups of them (Saki, Idolmaster, etc). And the thing is: the all-girl series these days do not involve magical girls - not particularly anyways.
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Old 2012-06-19, 01:24   Link #34
SilverSyko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Well I admit, it's almost as funny as labeling the majority of a fanbase as being inflicted with said severely negative psychological conditioning without actually talking to one.
Oh I see. I suggest you go back and read that sentence again more carefully because I don't see the words "majority of fanbase" in it.

Quote:
Wish fulfillment... Isn't that the case with EVERY work of fiction?
Maybe for the authors of the stories sure since it's their wish to write whatever story they put out. Don't really see what you mean though from an audience perspective when it comes to other genres.

Quote:
Don't get me started on cliches...
Okay, to be fair cliches themselves aren't all bad really. It's just that if they're going to be present they need to at least actually be entertaining. Harem cliches are not entertaining to some folk, including myself.
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Old 2012-06-19, 01:41   Link #35
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
Oh I see. I suggest you go back and read that sentence again more carefully because I don't see the words "majority of fanbase" in it.
I don't want this to drag on- basically yes I was trying to be funny, but main point is that this whole Otaku viewing themselves as the protagonist claim just seem so taken as the truth that nobody thinks anything of it.

This is probably true in the past where majority of the harem stories come from Visual Novels where you ARE the protagonists, but those days are long gone.

Not even our resident Mangatron goes "Yup, that's me over there !"

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
Maybe for the authors of the stories sure since it's their wish to write whatever story they put out. Don't really see what you mean though from an audience perspective when it comes to other genres.
People watch horror because they want to feel the thrill, Boys watch action shows because they're itching for an adventure in their boring life. Middle age women watch drama because... Well, they have their own weird itch to scratch .

What you get out of watching a show is pretty much your 'wish fulfillment', something you want that you can't get (enough of) in real life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
Okay, to be fair cliches themselves aren't all bad really. It's just that if they're going to be present they need to at least actually be entertaining. Harem cliches are not entertaining to some folk, including myself.
Fair enough and I actually agree.

I don't like pure fanservice harem shows just like how I don't like yuri bait series; my motto in life is the same as for my Animes- Moderation.

Last edited by Chaos2Frozen; 2012-06-19 at 01:51.
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Old 2012-06-19, 01:54   Link #36
mystogan
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it depends on the plot of the anime, in an anime like k-on where the plot is of friendship between girls, what role would a male character have in it, even in yuri anime a male character cannot have a proper role, but still a supporting male character in yuri will be alright a bit

my preferance will be an all girl cast, almost every harem has typical character design, a lame guy, a flirty girl, a moe, a tsundere, a loli, it's the same kind of harem everywhere, it's nice to see it if you are watching a harem for the first time after that it gets very boring,

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On a more personal note the male lead is just too freaking lame and stupid for me to stand and also the concept of several - absolutely gorgeous, if I may add - girls fighting over that same lame guy is just to bizarre for me to accept.
totally agreeing with you here, it sickens me to see beautiful and hot girls fighting over the same lame guy

rather than typical harem, partial harem like Ah! My Goddess is better to watch, where the lead male and lead female have feelings only for each other and other females are around just for fun or for time pass
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Old 2012-06-19, 02:04   Link #37
Ichihara Asako
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
When was the last time you're seen a harem series? 2006? Because most of the spineless seem to have died off then.
Uh, no. There's at least one every season, and they're still just as bad as ever.
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Old 2012-06-19, 02:05   Link #38
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post

This is probably true in the past where majority of the harem stories come from Visual Novels where you ARE the protagonists, but those days are long gone.
I disagree that in VN that "you" are the protagonist because the main characters tend to have their own personalities (eventhough most of them are dokan though)
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Old 2012-06-19, 02:13   Link #39
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Ichihara Asako View Post
Uh, no. There's at least one every season, and they're still just as bad as ever.
Then you seem to have terrible luck picking that one each season

Don't worry, it's not just you.

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I disagree that in VN that "you" are the protagonist because the main characters tend to have their own personalities (even though most of them are dokan though)
I meant "you are the protagonist" as in like how you would immerse yourself in a game
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Old 2012-06-19, 02:54   Link #40
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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I think harem’s typical weakness compared to all-female anime is that most of the harems have “tired and true” formula which mainly/generally about the interaction between the main-guy with the many girls provided. If that main formula is accompanied by other “special” elements, it can become a quite good and interesting combination (Onegai Teacher, TWGOK, Highschool of the Dead, etc), but if it doesn’t have anything special and only filled with tired cliches, it will be boring as hell (Akane-iro ni Somaru Saka, Girl’s Bravo, DearS, etc). Since all-female anime (generally) don’t have the obligation of that “awkward boy x girls interaction”, they can create interesting plot and settings easier than harems (Claymore, Nanoha, etc). That’s why I was so dissapointed that anime like Queen’s Blade & Ikki Tousen become nothing more than ecchi shows.
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