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View Poll Results: Aquarion EVOL - Episode 25 Rating
Perfect 10 10 17.86%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 11 19.64%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 7 12.50%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 8.93%
6 out of 10 : Average 7 12.50%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 1.79%
4 out of 10 : Poor 2 3.57%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 1.79%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 3 5.36%
1 out of 10 : Painful 9 16.07%
Voters: 56. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-06-19, 00:29   Link #161
ReddyRedWolf
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Originally Posted by SABER60069 View Post
What I have read says the Wings of the Sun doesn't refer to Apollonius but his Wings and it was tore off Apollonius when he saved Celiane then he put the Wings inside the core of Vector Sol when he started using Aquarion effectively making Aquarion the Wings of the Sun

So I imagine Fudou is just Apollonius
Wings of the Sun is Apollonius. According to Touma he was reborn as Aquarion. It's like Sauron pouring his power into his ring. Apollo realized a wingless Shadow Angel is still a Dark Angel. Hence he needed Touma to save the Earth.

When Apollonius died by Scorpius sword (Fudo took those references away from the book in the TV/Vega universe) his spirit remained in Aquarion. Which is why we see Apollonius at the back of the cockpit of Apollo. Apollonius body disappeared.

According to an interview somebody is split between Soul, Body and Heart. When Mykage saw Zen Fudo he said his current form is ugly and asked where his real body is.

In my interpretation Fudo is the heart of Apollonius. The part that kept all the memories. Apollonius body I have a guess.

Fudo has been standing still around for 24,000 years. Crea ha been watching him the whole time. The only other immortal being in Genesis of Aquarion is Rena. Crea/Rena is likely the Body of Apollonius.

In Rena's eyes Apollo ha always been a pet. She said on their first meeting he is either the Wings of the Sun or the Beast of Darkness. It turns out he is the latter.
In episode 16 when they were being attacked by a mythological beast taking their fear of a vampire it takes Rena's form. Apollo trusting Rena calls her to stop hiding. A vision shows as Apollo is calling Pollon is howling. There is vision of Apollonius and Rena beckons the call.

Spoiler for Rena episode 16:


That vision of Apollonius has shown up before. In episode 2 Apollo panics as he feels the pain of those being abducted by Shadow Angels. Rena bites him and he takes Apollonius personality.

Much like Aquarion is split between three Vectors Apollius is split into three parts.

Aquarion, Fudo and Crea/Rena.
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Old 2012-06-19, 00:39   Link #162
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Amata claiming to like mikono for now is basically the same thing Apollo claimed as well. There is nothing different about Amata's claim and Apollo's. It just makes Amata's love for Mikono all the more fated. No matter what form pollon and celiane soul take, pollon's soul will always claim to love celiane for now.

Amata is defying nothing. If anything we get back to our origonal interpretation of flying over fate to be nothing else than getting together without dying.
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Old 2012-06-19, 00:50   Link #163
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There's a world of difference between them that has been explained in length by many posters. Amata's love for Mikono seems cheap and weak, especially since it was sidelined so heavily compared to the love of Zessica, Andy/Mix, and Jin/Yunoha. They actually fell in love and had reasons for their love that developed over more than one episode.

Amata has been stuck at the "Love at First Sight Stage" since he first met her and has had little no screentime to show why he loves her so much that he actively screws his friends over for her. At least Apollo and Silvia were worked into loving each other after the initial spark over a number of episodes. Since that wasn't done here the love Amata has for Mikono doesn't really hold any ground and the fans, in both the east and west, have been right in pointing out how forced and underdeveloped it is. Especially compared to the love the side characters have for each other. Hell, Amata doesn't even "know" Mikono at all from the way he was praising her as the perfect and pure saint worthy to be his prize. Amata was only telling Kagura the Mikono he wants not the one that he's chasing after.
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Old 2012-06-19, 01:08   Link #164
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Apollonius just saw him as a bro but Touma is just too yandere for him. Heck there is Otoha Touma knows she loves him but he just uses her as a tool.
...they were never bros, they were lovers. Sousei is their song.
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Old 2012-06-19, 01:25   Link #165
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Much like Aquarion is split between three Vectors Apollius is split into three parts.

Aquarion, Fudo and Crea/Rena.
I still like this theory! And to be honest, if Crea/Rena isn't part of Aquarion, who is she? She's been watching Fudo for all this time and really knows what's going on. If she's part of Apollonius it makes sense, but it's not so neat if she isn't.

I find it a little annoying that she's been in Fudo's shadow all the time, really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Hell, Amata doesn't even "know" Mikono at all from the way he was praising her as the perfect and pure saint worthy to be his prize. Amata was only telling Kagura the Mikono he wants not the one that he's chasing after.
Um, dude, that's not correct. I know you like waxing lyrical, but Amata wasn't portraying Mikono as a saint. He even went through her negative characteristics. "She's shy, she has a short temper, and she gets jealous for no reason!"

Then he goes on to talk about the things he likes about her. "But she always tries her best, and she can take in people's pain! She can connect people's feelings together! That's the Mikono I love!"

The development of Amata/Mikono in EVOL certainly does have serious problems, not least of which is that the writers couldn't let it develop very far for plot reasons. The writers have cut back the screen time that pairing ought to have had, because if they were shown talking to each other for long enough, they would surely have sorted out their problems by now. It did get sidelined in favour of side plots. Not a great move on the part of the writers. If I were them I'd have made a lot of changes to the pacing.

Nonetheless, the Amata/Mikono romance is still not as shallow as you say it is. You're saying that Zessica's unrequited love, Mix/Andy and Jin/Yunoha are superior because "They actually fell in love and had reasons for their love that developed over more than one episode." But Amata/Mikono has had that. Hell, Amata in episode 25 even went ahead and listed his non-fate-related reasons for loving Mikono, the ones which grew as he came to know her over the course of multiple episodes, as opposed to his initial "OMG this is fate!" attraction.
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Old 2012-06-19, 01:49   Link #166
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^
Every other single pair is vastly superior because their interactions don't suck.

Even the 'good' AmataxMikono moments are hated by the staff of the show.
Kaji claimed his disgust over it.
For the first time Kawamori has to whiteknight one of his heroine (Mikono).
People are actually crossing fingers for a guilty crown ending. :/

Their romance is a failing of epic proportion.

An example of what not to do for future writters.

I'm not even touching the completely messed up and non-sensical fate theme.

Last edited by Zuul; 2012-06-19 at 02:32.
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Old 2012-06-19, 01:52   Link #167
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Amata has been stuck at the "Love at First Sight Stage" since he first met her and has had little no screentime to show why he loves her so much that he actively screws his friends over for her. At least Apollo and Silvia were worked into loving each other after the initial spark over a number of episodes. Since that wasn't done here the love Amata has for Mikono doesn't really hold any ground and the fans, in both the east and west, have been right in pointing out how forced and underdeveloped it is. Especially compared to the love the side characters have for each other. Hell, Amata doesn't even "know" Mikono at all from the way he was praising her as the perfect and pure saint worthy to be his prize. Amata was only telling Kagura the Mikono he wants not the one that he's chasing after.
Nobody can deny, their relationship is underdeveloped compared to the others which I personally believe is largely in part due to Mikono's passiveness and 'disturbances' like Kagura and Zessica thrown into the mix. Maybe you should watch the episode again, because to me it seemed as though Kagura was the one who was annoyed about Amata pointing out 'Sylphie's' flaws.

That scene was done poorly, but it was to show that Amata loves Mikono for who she is but Kagura doesn't know anything about her and bases his love solely on destiny. This is a repeat of what was done in episode 22 or 23 when they last fought iirc, but back then Amata didn't point out her flaws.
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Old 2012-06-19, 02:02   Link #168
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nooooooo!!! turning the Solar/Luna/Mars Aquarion into Dark Aquarion is equivalent of like turning a loli schoolgirl into an office woman wearing a leather mistress outfit,
uh..... why am i comparing Aquarions to lolis again?
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Old 2012-06-19, 02:10   Link #169
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Um, dude, that's not correct. I know you like waxing lyrical, but Amata wasn't portraying Mikono as a saint. He even went through her negative characteristics. "She's shy, she has a short temper, and she gets jealous for no reason!"

Then he goes on to talk about the things he likes about her. "But she always tries her best, and she can take in people's pain! She can connect people's feelings together! That's the Mikono I love!"

The development of Amata/Mikono in EVOL certainly does have serious problems, not least of which is that the writers couldn't let it develop very far for plot reasons. The writers have cut back the screen time that pairing ought to have had, because if they were shown talking to each other for long enough, they would surely have sorted out their problems by now. It did get sidelined in favour of side plots. Not a great move on the part of the writers. If I were them I'd have made a lot of changes to the pacing.

Nonetheless, the Amata/Mikono romance is still not as shallow as you say it is. You're saying that Zessica's unrequited love, Mix/Andy and Jin/Yunoha are superior because "They actually fell in love and had reasons for their love that developed over more than one episode." But Amata/Mikono has had that. Hell, Amata in episode 25 even went ahead and listed his non-fate-related reasons for loving Mikono, the ones which grew as he came to know her over the course of multiple episodes, as opposed to his initial "OMG this is fate!" attraction.
Amata has shown he likes her getting jealous over Zessica getting close to him or being shy, indecisive, because it means she's actually responding to him instead of doing nothing which she does a lot of. Even if it amounts to nothing he doesn't act like it's a bad thing that she has these supposedly horrid traits and likes that since her shyness means she might like him, her jealousy means she might like him, so even though those traits should be bad they aren't to him because it means Mikono is showing attention, in a strange way, to him since she doesn't show him attention otherwise. Thing is that Mikono and him and haven't actually been able to show real love between each other, for one reason or another - I blame bad writing, that Amata is willing to take even things that should be bad as a positive because it's better than nothing and considering how the positives he listed aren't true...

Mikono has never tried her best, when she tries she quits halfway and becomes a useless damsel in distress. Amata has seen this first hand on multiple occasions(Some of which have caused real trouble for the other characters), this is just him seeing what he wants to see. Mikono has never taken on anyones pain, in fact she's the reason the people she supposedly cares about are in pain and she knows she can end it right than and there. Yet what does she do? Runs away and avoids the pain while letting them suffer than angsting to herself about all the pain others are going through because of her. And when has Mikono connected anyone beside her initial connection? Most of the time she's causing friction between her teammates, Zessica and Amata especially, because of her indecisiveness and getting kidnapped or being useless. This is the writers fault. Despite saying she's going to connect stuff we don't see her really do any of that despite all the hype and anticipation. Everyone expected her to do something when she left Amata on a bad note to find Fudo. Yet what did she do? Become a damsel in distress again and getting captured... Again.

What Amata should have said was "Sure she leads on me, refuses to tell me how she feels about me, is a tease, is attracted to my other half, can't do anything for herself, and is the reason I was dragged on to this planet full of near death situations, where I also saw my parents die, but I still love her because.... She's a nice girl.".

The relationship is shallow and forced, you know it's an issue when they started pushing Zessica out of the way(She hasn't shown up in the last 2 episodes and there's only 1 left) because her mere presence is enough to get people to see how bad the main pair is. They could have easily given them moments without furthering it into a romantic sense if they wanted to. Even just them hanging out, even jut having fun together, and talking with Amata thinking about all the reasons why he's so in love with this girl that his friends are sacrificial pawns when it comes to her. However that requires competent writing which the writing staff has shown to lack. Instead we were served with many unsatisfying scenes between them, even the ones that weren't interupted went nowhere.

Amata is a hypocrite, fate was all fine when it was convienent and didn't get in the way of his chances with Mikono but the moment his other self started argueing over who's more fated for her he tries to pull one up on him even though they're both the same person deep down and their feelings for Mikono are the same. No matter what Amata says doesn't change that he's fated for her and just because he uses buttered up words doesn't make his love for Mikono any more relevant than Kagura's. Especially since Amata's meeting and falling in love with Mikono had everything to do with fate upon their first meeting which has been on a rerun ever since with very little progress past that stage.

At least Kagura isn't a flipflopper, and you would think he would be the flipflopper since his memories and mind were severely tampered with by Mykage, when it comes for his reasons for loving Mikono and Mikono knows where he stands when she's concerned. While Amata is changing his reasons so that he can be "Right" instead of "This is why I love her and that's final" instead we get "Wait! You're using that arguement that I would totally okay with if it was me... Which actually is me since you're me which means your arguement reinforces why I should get with her because I'm the original! Regardless I have to be the right one so I'm going to switch my reasons up so you're the one that's wrong for loving her since clearly I'm the right one in loving her for these reasons even if Destiny is totally on my side no matter what I say!".

Last edited by Destined_Fate; 2012-06-19 at 02:48.
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Old 2012-06-19, 02:38   Link #170
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Found a post by an anon, that I thought was pretty good in capturing the problem with some of the themes or morales in/of this story. No credit to me but no one to give credit to as they are all anons. I'm pretty sure this is all from one anon.
I agree with this post.

However I think that for me they suffer mostly from bad interactions/dynamics.
Have they been entertaining together, I think I could have forget those thematic nonsenses.
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Old 2012-06-19, 03:07   Link #171
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Spoiler for The oddities of Amata's list of qualities:

@GoldenLad: The main difference, for me at least, between the central trio and any other relationship, is that nebulous "fated and instant love". Take Andy/MIX vs. Amata/Mikono. Andy and MIX, as background characters, started at odd ends, had to overcome one side's disdain for the other, and then a bunch of other troubles. Amata and Mikono started off holding hands because fate willed that Amata would fall head over heals for Mikono on their fated meeting on that one day when she would go outside, didn't have to overcome any obstacle except Kagura (who appeared once per 6 episodes), and made less progress in 25 episodes than Andy and MIX in 17.

The central pair is just not as compelling as the side characters. I can actually feel that the side characters fell in love with one another for good reason, the central pairing, on the other hand, has been a lot of one-sided chasing from Amata and Kagura, and both of them start off on the same exact fated love.
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Old 2012-06-19, 03:11   Link #172
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Amata has shown he likes her getting jealous over Zessica getting close to himor being shy, which in fact she's not shy just indecisive, because it means she's actually responding to him instead of doing nothing which she does a lot og. Even if it amounts to nothing he doesn't act like it's a bad thing that she has these traits and likes that since her shyness means she might like him, her jealousy means she might like him, so even though those traits should be bad they aren't to him because it means Mikono is showing attention, in a strange way, to him since she doesn't show him attention otherwise. Thing is that Mikono and him and haven't actually been able to show real love between each other, for one reason or another, that Amata is willing to take even things that should be bad as a positive because it's better than nothing and considering how the positives he listed aren't true...
That is a tangled mess of reasoning. Seriously.

It doesn't matter that you somehow think the things Amata listed as Mikono's negatives are actually positive in his opinion (?!) and the things he listed as her positive traits are negative. Those are the reasons Amata gave, and you're not Amata. He gave those reasons because those are some of what he sees as her good and bad traits, based upon the time he has spent with her.

You were saying that he was "praising her as the perfect and pure saint worthy to be his prize" and that he doesn't have any reasons for liking her other than fate, but you have been contradicted by canon. He mentioned her bad traits and the reasons why he likes her. He did so in order to show Kagura that he loves her because of who she is and not just because of "destiny" the way Kagura does.

Aside from the matter of hand, sorry to go off topic but I feel the need to nitpick about your logic there aside from its actual content.

To attempt to refute that Amata listed Mikono's flaws and likes her for who she is, you started off saying that despite Amata presenting traits of hers as negative, he actually subjectively finds those flaws as positive, so they don't count as negative traits. But then you go on to say that as for Mikono's positive traits, those traits are objectively negatives and so don't count as positive traits. (Well, actually they're "objectively in your subjective opinion", but let's roll with it).

That's a ramshackle way of constructing an argument. Consistency is important! Almost anyone will at rationalise their argument after already having formed an opinion on other grounds, as that's a normal human trait, but it should not look that obvious. Don't just switch around between objectivity and subjectivity randomly.
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Old 2012-06-19, 03:15   Link #173
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Spoiler for some ranting about the characters:
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Old 2012-06-19, 03:31   Link #174
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Wings of the Sun is Apollonius. According to Touma he was reborn as Aquarion. It's like Sauron pouring his power into his ring. Apollo realized a wingless Shadow Angel is still a Dark Angel. Hence he needed Touma to save the Earth.

When Apollonius died by Scorpius sword (Fudo took those references away from the book in the TV/Vega universe) his spirit remained in Aquarion. Which is why we see Apollonius at the back of the cockpit of Apollo. Apollonius body disappeared.

According to an interview somebody is split between Soul, Body and Heart. When Mykage saw Zen Fudo he said his current form is ugly and asked where his real body is.

In my interpretation Fudo is the heart of Apollonius. The part that kept all the memories. Apollonius body I have a guess.

Fudo has been standing still around for 24,000 years. Crea ha been watching him the whole time. The only other immortal being in Genesis of Aquarion is Rena. Crea/Rena is likely the Body of Apollonius.

In Rena's eyes Apollo ha always been a pet. She said on their first meeting he is either the Wings of the Sun or the Beast of Darkness. It turns out he is the latter.
In episode 16 when they were being attacked by a mythological beast taking their fear of a vampire it takes Rena's form. Apollo trusting Rena calls her to stop hiding. A vision shows as Apollo is calling Pollon is howling. There is vision of Apollonius and Rena beckons the call.

Spoiler for Rena episode 16:


That vision of Apollonius has shown up before. In episode 2 Apollo panics as he feels the pain of those being abducted by Shadow Angels. Rena bites him and he takes Apollonius personality.

Much like Aquarion is split between three Vectors Apollius is split into three parts.

Aquarion, Fudo and Crea/Rena.
Your theory would have made sense if they haven't went crazy with the new plot twists.

Touma isn't even credible at this point, you mentioned he said Apollonius is Wings of the Sun and is in Aquarion but a while later he thinks Apollo is Apollonius and later realizes he is a dog

If you are right with Apollonius spirit being in Aquarion that doesn't explain why Touma snapped cause he was still with Apollonius to some degree unless 1.He didn't realize it 2.It wasn't enough for him 1 would make him look even more stupid and 2 doesn't exactly sit right

Rena/Crea being Apollonius body is something I see possible considering Mikage did mention he hid it somewhere and Fudou disguised himself as Rena at one point in the original series though I'm not sure that actually makes a good picture in everyone's minds

In any case I still don't think Apollonius spirit is what made Aquarion the Wings of the Sun not sure where I read it but Apollonius' wings being placed in a crystal in the core of Vector Sol making it the Solar Wings make more sense to me.

And look I see you're trying to make sense of all the recent plot twists but I am not going to change my mind about it, they may have started off with these plot twists in mind but it is very clear they dropped it for other ideas so showing me these same old screenshots that does foreshadow it when they have yet to discard those ideas doesn't cut it for me

The ideas were there, the foreshadowing was there and you did a good job picking them up and I don't disagree with that

But I maintain my stance that if those plot twists were to be done then they should be done in the original series and FINISH IT THERE. A lot of retconning had to be done to get these plot twists back in and the one who got it worst was Touma, are you seriously going to tell me Touma mistaking Apollonius for a dog was the original intent and planned from the beginning? So unless you think the fact they completely destroyed the final episode of the original series for me was planned stop telling me the clues were there all the time and everything makes sense!
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Old 2012-06-19, 03:34   Link #175
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Originally Posted by teelatsuki View Post
Spoiler for some ranting about the characters:
I agree 100% with you.

It's difficult to root for Amata when he pretty much acts like a one tracked mind extremist. Exactly like kagura, just sugarcoating his BS with pretty words, and unlike Kagura not having years of tortures and branwashing to excuse his behaviour.

I also laugh at how much more concerned he is about fighting Kagura than Mikono's actual feelings. Why should they ask her who she wants ? What a stupid idea ! It's all about their feelings, not hers.

Perfect and :

Mikono pays a goodbye to the dogs, the go suicide gattai with Fudo and Mykage to finally appease Touma's butthurt.

Mikono and Fudou finally do something instead of sitting on their butts.
Mykage has the Appollonius back with him, he punishes the dog (Kagura + Amata super devastated over Mikono's death), and he punishes the harlot Celiane.
I think this time Fudou needs to take responsability instead of letting a poor teenager die in his place.

Mykage gets the best end even if he doesn't deserve it. Well, one can say he deserves it for being the most consistently entertaining character and a great villain.

Last edited by Zuul; 2012-06-19 at 03:59.
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Old 2012-06-19, 04:00   Link #176
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Originally Posted by SABER60069 View Post

If you are right with Apollonius spirit being in Aquarion that doesn't explain why Touma snapped cause he was still with Apollonius to some degree unless 1.He didn't realize it 2.It wasn't enough for him 1 would make him look even more stupid and 2 doesn't exactly sit right

Rena/Crea being Apollonius body is something I see possible considering Mikage did mention he hid it somewhere and Fudou disguised himself as Rena at one point in the original series though I'm not sure that actually makes a good picture in everyone's minds

In any case I still don't think Apollonius spirit is what made Aquarion the Wings of the Sun not sure where I read it but Apollonius' wings being placed in a crystal in the core of Vector Sol making it the Solar Wings make more sense to me.
Spoiler for What Touma was Right and what he was wrong.:


From Touma's assessment. Arrogant that his feather/soul reading was flawless. He thought Apollo was just a remnant of Apollonius. A piece that reincarnated into a human.

Apollonius created Aquarion and placed a piece of his soul in it.

Touma was right on the Wings of the Sun being Aquarion. As Apollonius was in there. But not all of him. Yeah he was greedy and wanted all of Apollonius.

It turns out Apollonius never faced him ever. He just sends the reincarnation of his dog, his lover and comrade to face him.

Ok Touma is pissed that he created Mykage.

Much like Aquarion and Fudo are a pieces of Apollonius. Mykage is a piece of Touma. The worst part.
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Old 2012-06-19, 11:53   Link #177
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I'm a Zessica fan. I like her character, even after all the crap she's been given. That being said, like you guys said before, if you do take her out of the equation the AmataxMikonoxKagura relationship seems a lot more focused.

Maybe Kawamori could have saved her character for the next Macross series.

And you guys were also spot on with the whole AmataxMikono discussion.

Last edited by KleenexGhost; 2012-06-19 at 12:05.
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Old 2012-06-19, 11:56   Link #178
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The last time I saw an anime where everyone was complaining about and agreeing with each other and no one defending it, was Dragonauts.

This has got to be one of the greatest trainwrecks in anime history.
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Old 2012-06-19, 12:05   Link #179
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The last time I saw an anime where everyone was complaining about and agreeing with each other and no one defending it, was Dragonauts.

This has got to be one of the greatest trainwrecks in anime history.
Well technical wise: Visually I like the art style, and I think the music is great.

The supporting characters are well done for the most part and the mech designs are cool.
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Old 2012-06-19, 12:14   Link #180
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Well trainwrecks are supposed to look and sound so good to so many people yet contain such terrible plots that people are completely disgusted.

Dragonaut had designs that people liked, had some good potential, great seiyuu cast, a bunch of reasons that attracted people to watch it. The same goes for EVOL, they even went as much as having an hour special for the first two episodes to get people to watch it.

But it all turned out to be quite rubbish.
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