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View Poll Results: Hyouka - Episode 9 Rating
Perfect 10 12 21.05%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 20 35.09%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 12 21.05%
7 out of 10 : Good 8 14.04%
6 out of 10 : Average 4 7.02%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 1.75%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 57. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-06-18, 12:40   Link #41
SRanger
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Originally Posted by leokiko View Post
Almost fell asleep there, the drunk moeblob made me laugh so I managed to stay awake.

At least there is that sexy chick on the next epi, looking foward to it.
honestly, I doubt the future episodes are going to be anymore exciting than the past 8 :P

If you're falling asleep about every episode, Hyouka might not be for you.
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Old 2012-06-18, 13:34   Link #42
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Ah,I think I noticed something->what when wrong between the writer and the shooting section..

The blood!the writer mentioned that the blood are only used tiny bit,but they prepared a big bottle of it!and I think the broken hand aren't supposed to exist in the script,but the shooting just go ahead and make the story become a mess by adding the hand....Well,that is just a speculation of what happen to the writer

Seriously,I can't believe the writer can be sick until can't even say something about the trick at all.It is more logical that they had a fight and the writer just don't care anymore,so they asked help from oreki to have a logical conclusion of the movie~
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Old 2012-06-18, 14:37   Link #43
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Anyone else notice in the film the master key wasn't on the chain with the other keys when it was used to unlock the door?

How did they know which key to get? Also, the "blind spot" may be the right arm. How do we know that's his arm?
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Old 2012-06-18, 14:44   Link #44
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Originally Posted by SRanger View Post
honestly, I doubt the future episodes are going to be anymore exciting than the past 8 :P

If you're falling asleep about every episode, Hyouka might not be for you.
I like this show, but this mystery is stupid. Why doesn't the gang ask why CAN'T THEY ASK THE SCRPTWRITER?
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Old 2012-06-18, 14:44   Link #45
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With all of these speculations, we might need a thread dedicated to those kind of theories for the non novel readers.
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Old 2012-06-18, 19:56   Link #46
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With all of these speculations, we might need a thread dedicated to those kind of theories for the non novel readers.
I recommend Hyouka - Speculation & Theories (for first time viewers). It's been there since the launch of the sub-forum, lonely, unloved...
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Old 2012-06-18, 20:15   Link #47
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Watching episode 8 again after 9:

* KyoAni's floorplan is slightly different than the novel's, but most of the differences are concentrated in the front, far from the supposed crime scene.
* What a conundrum. Kounosu has what seems to be the best opportunity, but as the smallest girl she cannot be a serious match for Kaitou, who's the biggest and buffest guy. Heck, I don't think even two of the other party members will be enough to take him on silently and without injuries.
* There's no way all five other members were involved, because there would be no point for them to fake the discovery of the crime scene.
* Having the window be the focus of 2/3 theories, along with the apparent difficulty in opening it and getting in without Kaitou noticing, indicates it's probably not the entry point. The windows in the two rooms in the hallway are open though. (Both rooms appear visually identical, too, right down to the decay, the only difference being a spiderweb. If KyoAni is copy pasting rooms, then that would be a meta way of indicating they're not important?)
* There's still no purpose to the severed arm. There's nobody it could belong to other than Kaitou, and had to be inflicted after death. But there's not enough blood connecting it to the main pool under the body, which one would expect when an artery is severed. There's no splatter on any of the other characters either, and almost no way to clean up any that will occur (running water and cleaning supplies in a rundown building? No.).
* For that matter, what's the purpose of the murderer closing and locking the door anyway (and it's likely the murderer, because Kaitou has no reason to)? There's nobody else in that part of the theater to witness the crime anyway, and sealing the room would seem to leave more clues than just leaving it open.
* The door to the stage and the passageway behind the stage are both blocked. There's what appears to be a trapdoor between the two that's at odds with the floorplan. There's no other meaningful entryway besides the main door, but anybody who can fit through that will almost definitely attract Kaitou's attention and be too small to win a struggle.
* The murder has to occur in the short timespan during the party's separation, without uninvolved members noticing the perp's movements.
* The only enlightening things about episode 9's theories are: the unused rope; discrepancy in the amount of blood used; Hyongou was familiar with the building and did not intend for the window to be the entryway.
* The mystery is supposedly solvable even in the film's unfinished state, which would mean that the things that are not shown are not important, meaning no undocumented entryways and not the unused rope.
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Old 2012-06-18, 20:23   Link #48
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Have to say the mystery did get more complicated thanks to the staff's actions.

Have the assistant director and actors who were fine with ad lib and since the writer wasn't there we can't completely trust what was said in the film. Not to mention said assistant director wanting more drama and impact than actual mystery. Maybe that's part of the reason why the acting was so bad. Not exactly a sharp guy either.

Then have the arrogant props manager. Besides apparently thinking he could have written a better mystery he messed with things. Adding way more blood than the writer intended without even thinking as to why she wanted so little blood. Therefore the massive pool of blood can't be treated as accurate. The information about the rope was interesting, but multiple ways to look at it. Besides Houtarou got the main point that the window was too old and loud to be used. It also hits the other guy's argument since the guy would have seen the killer coming from a mile away.

The last theory was at least entertaining and the girl was less frustrating than the others. Though the bit about the blood confirms there wasn't supposed to be a lot of deaths. Sure maybe the killer turns into someone who goes around choking everyone to death, but in that case the killer wouldn't have chopped an arm off and just followed the same pattern.

The script was nice to have though. Proves the main guy wrong since the writer wanted no sign of someone having been on the grass. Also wrote up the room being blocked so wouldn't matter if it was when she had been blocked or no when she went.

Do wonder if Hongou's feelings on this whole movie will play a role in who the killer actually was. Majority decided she had to write the story, majority told her what kind of story to write, and that it had to be a movie. That's a lot of pressure to put on someone who was sick at times. On that note wonder if someone that Hongou felt represented her will end up being the killer and the motive will be resentment about having to go on that trip? In the end feel like with the first story it'll be the secret feelings that are the key to figuring this mystery out.

It was pretty entertaining to watch Chitanda go around drunk. She doesn't exactly back off normally and was just bobbing around when that script came up. Certainly saw something in that meeting log that caught her interest. Regardless I found it odd that she doesn't enjoy reading mystery novels. I mean miss "I'm curious" doesn't care for novel mysteries even though she's constantly curious about real life ones?
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Old 2012-06-18, 20:37   Link #49
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I think it would be swell if Houtarou can salvage the script and end up ending the story the way Hongou envisioned in the first place, blowing away Irisu's mind in the process and having Satoshi want his babies.

Cheers.
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Old 2012-06-18, 21:17   Link #50
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* There's still no purpose to the severed arm. There's nobody it could belong to other than Kaitou, and had to be inflicted after death. But there's not enough blood connecting it to the main pool under the body, which one would expect when an artery is severed. There's no splatter on any of the other characters either, and almost no way to clean up any that will occur (running water and cleaning supplies in a rundown building? No.).
It's safe to say at this point that we don't know the cause of death for certain. The props dept. probably screwed the pooch there. All we know about the body is that there's some blood, and the arm looks injured. For all we know, the rope might have been used for strangling, or even hanging, unlikely though either may be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
* For that matter, what's the purpose of the murderer closing and locking the door anyway (and it's likely the murderer, because Kaitou has no reason to)? There's nobody else in that part of the theater to witness the crime anyway, and sealing the room would seem to leave more clues than just leaving it open.
The thought had originally occurred to me that he may have locked himself in to flee the culprit only to die inside. You'd think he'd yell for help in that case, though.

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Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
* The door to the stage and the passageway behind the stage are both blocked. There's what appears to be a trapdoor between the two that's at odds with the floorplan.
There may be a trapdoor in the wings there that leads to the stage, but the thing I think you're referring to looks to me like either a storage box, or the entry to a dumbwaiter. If it's the latter, it would connect to the second floor. You'd have to be awfully small to fit in there, though, and you'd need a rope to use for a pulley to... to... No... That's just too... out there. That door is only in shot for like, a second, and it's probably not even a dumbwaiter.

Really, I kind of wonder if Hongou didn't just ragequit after she saw that the production crew and cast screwed up key details ruining her intended conclusion, and they brought in help to see if the Classics club could find a way to write them out of the corner. That location is said to be remote, so returning for re-takes might not be possible.

I wonder if the seventh actor might have been the detective who comes in to sort all this nonsense out.
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Old 2012-06-18, 22:47   Link #51
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It's safe to say at this point that we don't know the cause of death for certain. The props dept. probably screwed the pooch there. All we know about the body is that there's some blood, and the arm looks injured. For all we know, the rope might have been used for strangling, or even hanging, unlikely though either may be.
Production failure is definitely a possibility, but that tends to explain away everything. I'm actually thinking that the rope is for a possible second murder.

Quote:
I wonder if the seventh actor might have been the detective who comes in to sort all this nonsense out.
Probably. It's not good mystery form to make the culprit a previously unknown character, but a late intro for the detective has been done before.

There are so many oddities and impossibilities that assuming there was no substantial production screwup to make it unsolvable, I'm inclined toward the following solutions:

1) Between two and four characters are involved in the murder. In such a situation, it doesn't really matter who actually did it.

2) Serious accident (made overly severe by the props people), or Kaitou was faking it to troll the others. In other words, the victim and culprit were one. This would be too meta in more ways than one, and not very satisfying. It would explain next episode's title, though. It also would explain that Hongou ragequit after the class opposed her plot, the three amateur sleuths were trying to save face by pretending she wasn't going with this plotline, and that the rest of the class is trying to salvage the otherwise unsolvable mystery by bouncing ideas off the Classics Club as a test audience.
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Old 2012-06-18, 23:50   Link #52
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Irisu should become a regular main cast character..she can replace whats-her-face that isn't Chitanda.
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Old 2012-06-19, 00:46   Link #53
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Irisu should become a regular main cast character..she can replace whats-her-face that isn't Chitanda.
Now, now, Oreki's Holmes needs Ibara's Inspector Lestrade to play off of. Irisu is perfectly suited for the role of the haughty, but mysterious, client of this particular arc.
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Old 2012-06-19, 00:48   Link #54
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I found it odd that she doesn't enjoy reading mystery novels. I mean miss "I'm curious" doesn't care for novel mysteries even though she's constantly curious about real life ones?
Maybe kind of like a scientist who doesn't enjoy reading Sci-fi because it's (usually) unrealistic? Judging from her reaction this episode, she always notice when a solution has some flaws. She cannot enjoy mystery novel in general because its solution does not satisfy her.

Or maybe she is the opposite of most people: Over the top fictionous mystery does not interest her. The "mundane" but real one does.
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Old 2012-06-19, 11:15   Link #55
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But I just find it rather funny that some were seriously doubting this show was a mystery and were even debating what a mystery was when this show itself appears to have some pretty hardcore knowledge of the mystery genre.
Agreed.

While it's true that a couple of the mysterious in Hyouka have been lame, the rest have been pretty good, and the two multi-episode mysteries we've had so far (including the current one) have been downright fantastic.

A pretty good measure of the quality of a show's mystery element is how much it leads the viewers to speculate on it, and theorize on it, in discussion both on-line and off-line. By this measure, the current mystery in Hyouka is great, as its truly managed to intellectually engage a lot of viewers.

So far, Hyouka's approach seems to be to alternate between more 'low-intensity' episodic mysteries that are mainly there to help flesh out the main cast, and more 'high-intensity' mysteries that are mainly there to be engaging and enthralling in their own right. On the whole, I find this to be a very effective approach.


There's one additional note I want to make here, although ThereminVox has brought it up at least twice before, I think. And that note is just how incredibly good this anime is at conveying nuanced personality.

One subtle instance of this in this episode is Oreki's slightly shy smile at all of the attention aimed his way by the three theorists that pitched their theories to the Classics Club (or, more accurately, to Oreki). It's nice to see that even our male lead kuudere is capable of smiling bashfulness.

I think that one of the strengths of this show is that while you are able to find fitting archetypes for a lot of these characters, all of them sort of 'rise above' those archetypes, and aren't defined solely by them.

There was also a lot of nuance in how the three theorists were each presented. The loud manly brashness of the first, the smug intellectualism of the second, the genki girl-ism of the third - Those were all there, but the overall execution of it gave the three theorists a certain life of their own that transcends the character types they most easily fall into. Some of this is due to excellent seiyu work, some of this is no doubt due to KyoAni's attention to detail, but I do think that some of it is simply good writing.
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Old 2012-06-19, 13:40   Link #56
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Watching episode 8 again after 9:

* There's still no purpose to the severed arm. There's nobody it could belong to other than Kaitou, and had to be inflicted after death. But there's not enough blood connecting it to the main pool under the body, which one would expect when an artery is severed. There's no splatter on any of the other characters either, and almost no way to clean up any that will occur (running water and cleaning supplies in a rundown building? No.).

* For that matter, what's the purpose of the murderer closing and locking the door anyway (and it's likely the murderer, because Kaitou has no reason to)? There's nobody else in that part of the theater to witness the crime anyway, and sealing the room would seem to leave more clues than just leaving it open.

* The door to the stage and the passageway behind the stage are both blocked. There's what appears to be a trapdoor between the two that's at odds with the floorplan. There's no other meaningful entryway besides the main door, but anybody who can fit through that will almost definitely attract Kaitou's attention and be too small to win a struggle.

* The murder has to occur in the short timespan during the party's separation, without uninvolved members noticing the perp's movements.

* The only enlightening things about episode 9's theories are: the unused rope; discrepancy in the amount of blood used; Hyongou was familiar with the building and did not intend for the window to be the entryway.

* The mystery is supposedly solvable even in the film's unfinished state, which would mean that the things that are not shown are not important, meaning no undocumented entryways and not the unused rope.
Arm:
Yes, the Arm is a mystery to me too. I could actually build up a pretty solid Konousu culprit theory without any problems, but I still can't fit the arm in.

Locked room purpose:
Creating the illusion of a witch... Ohw ait wrong anime - no seriously its ujust the culprits modus operandi in order to not cast suspicion upon her as there is only one prson able to enter without being noticed - Konousu

No other ways to enter and the unused rope:
Call me self-centered, but I've found another way to both enter or leave, even if you ignore the trapüpdoor, which I don't really recognize as one, please note that my theory already includes the rope in the culprits modus operandi - the only thing I couldn't fit in was the severed arm. I actually even ignored it as it is seemingly not as important as one might think. The fact that the scriptwriter requested only a short amount of blood is actually a hint that the severed arm is a mental fart of the prop team.
If you really ask me about the arm though: It was probably the cause of death, with the key having been placed close to it after the room being locked. - if the arm wasn't that prop guys mental fart as I suspect.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...56&postcount=4

I guess I'll amend my theory for the arm so it fits my conclusion later for clarity.

Window:
I agree with you, the window was not meant as a way to enter or leave

Big boy vs small girl:
If my theory is true he was probably pretty surprised wheen she emerged from there - and even then trusted her, it is clear that the culprit is someone the victim trusted so even a small girl like kounosu could have killed him
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Old 2012-06-19, 14:15   Link #57
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Locked room purpose:
Creating the illusion of a witch... Ohw ait wrong anime - no seriously its ujust the culprits modus operandi in order to not cast suspicion upon her as there is only one prson able to enter without being noticed - Konousu
"In order to not cast suspicion upon her," Kounosu creates a situation where only she can enter the room. That's counterproductive.

Quote:
No other ways to enter and the unused rope
There's a massive problem with your theory regarding the laundry chute/dumbwaiter or whatever that thing is. Kounosu still cannot exit without a high chance of Kaitou noticing, and naturally being even more suspicious than if she had just walked in the door like any normal person would.

Quote:
Big boy vs small girl:
If my theory is true he was probably pretty surprised wheen she emerged from there - and even then trusted her, it is clear that the culprit is someone the victim trusted so even a small girl like kounosu could have killed him
It's pretty hard to trust somebody when they've just crawled through a hole and they're approaching you with a weapon (and she needs one, otherwise she has no chance). To incapacitate Kaitou as quickly as possible to prevent noise and struggling, a knife would not work unless applied to the neck or stabbed through the skull. There was no such injury to the body. Kounosu cannot possibly successfully strangle Kaitou, either. Therefore, she must have had some sort of blunt object to KO him with a strike to the back of the skull, which means she's carrying at least two weapons. Even if we discount the arm and the huge amount of blood, based on what we've seen of her script Hongou would have specified an alternate fatal wound to take into account.
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Old 2012-06-19, 17:13   Link #58
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"In order to not cast suspicion upon her," Kounosu creates a situation where only she can enter the room. That's counterproductive.


There's a massive problem with your theory regarding the laundry chute/dumbwaiter or whatever that thing is. Kounosu still cannot exit without a high chance of Kaitou noticing, and naturally being even more suspicious than if she had just walked in the door like any normal person would.


It's pretty hard to trust somebody when they've just crawled through a hole and they're approaching you with a weapon (and she needs one, otherwise she has no chance). To incapacitate Kaitou as quickly as possible to prevent noise and struggling, a knife would not work unless applied to the neck or stabbed through the skull. There was no such injury to the body. Kounosu cannot possibly successfully strangle Kaitou, either. Therefore, she must have had some sort of blunt object to KO him with a strike to the back of the skull, which means she's carrying at least two weapons. Even if we discount the arm and the huge amount of blood, based on what we've seen of her script Hongou would have specified an alternate fatal wound to take into account.
Which is wy she wasn't the one opning the door. Only two person's qualify to be the murder in this case - namely The guy who opened the door and Kounuso.
The latter got my attention when they stated in episode nine that the rope was relevant to the case in some way, before it was Katsuta. Since we never had a chance to examine whether the door was really closed it is also possible that he only pretended that it was locked in the first place.

Lets now assume the door was really closed, which does indeed only leave Kounosu, BUT just if you know about the rope.
Either way she would have trouble climbing up the chute without the rope, no matter if its a food elevator or a laundry chute.
There are several ways to enter the room but only one to leave.
(Except if you accept that thing next to the safe as a trapdoor but that would defeat the rope's purpose)
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Old 2012-06-19, 17:33   Link #59
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Which is wy she wasn't the one opning the door. Only two person's qualify to be the murder in this case - namely The guy who opened the door and Kounuso.
The latter got my attention when they stated in episode nine that the rope was relevant to the case in some way, before it was Katsuta. Since we never had a chance to examine whether the door was really closed it is also possible that he only pretended that it was locked in the first place.

Lets now assume the door was really closed, which does indeed only leave Kounosu, BUT just if you know about the rope.
Either way she would have trouble climbing up the chute without the rope, no matter if its a food elevator or a laundry chute.
There are several ways to enter the room but only one to leave.
(Except if you accept that thing next to the safe as a trapdoor but that would defeat the rope's purpose)
It cannot be the guy in yellow in any case. He was on the same side and level of the building as the girl in blue, and his movements would have been seen by her, and possibly by the guy upstairs. He cannot go to backstage right unless there's another passage unaccounted for. The possibility of him being the perp is even harder to argue than Kounosu's.

If by "that thing next to the safe" you mean the fallen door to the opening up on the wall, the wall opening looks otherwise sealed.
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Old 2012-06-19, 17:44   Link #60
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It cannot be the guy in yellow in any case. He was on the same side and level of the building as the girl in blue, and his movements would have been seen by her, and possibly by the guy upstairs. He cannot go to backstage right unless there's another passage unaccounted for. The possibility of him being the perp is even harder to argue than Kounosu's.

If by "that thing next to the safe" you mean the fallen door to the opening up on the wall, the wall opening looks otherwise sealed.
Lol there really is a hole in the wall i knew it was no trap door( would as said defeat the rope's purpose)
You good good eyes wel done , I really started thinking that it really might be a trap door leading to the promt box lol.

This does however bring us to another problem - That cute, whatever it is is now really the only valid way, other than the door to leave the room if its locked.
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