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View Poll Results: Fate/Zero - Episode 24 Rating
Perfect 10 62 48.82%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 36 28.35%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 14 11.02%
7 out of 10 : Good 4 3.15%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 2.36%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 3 2.36%
4 out of 10 : Poor 3 2.36%
3 out of 10 : Bad 2 1.57%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 127. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-06-18, 22:34   Link #221
Double_Edge
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Except I don't really get what you mean by "psychotic." Most people couldn't kill their own wife and daughter. He did. Is he psychotic for doing so? Most couldn't kill their adopted mother. He did, to prevent a zombie apocalypse. Is he psychotic for doing so?

Maybe it's just for me, but judging him for that may not be psychotic, but it's certainly sanctimonious.
I mean it with the literal definition. Just apathetically disregarding lives just to save numbers. This isn;t the only time he's done something like this. Even the apartment bombing. yeah he got the families out first, but what are they going to do now?

And again, there is a difference between saving one group over another vs saving one group and actively slaughtering the other.

Maybe psychotic isn't the right word. Heartless may be a better description, but he is definitely not right in the head.

I just do not like the writing for his character. He's just too one dimensional . He thinks too simply and like i said, in black and white. It's just hard to take him seriously with his unrealistic attitude. I feel that they were trying to make him a character that was hellbent on completing the mission but they just fell flat with him.


Roberta from black lagoon was even more one dimensional but at least they succeeded in making her badass. The Boss from Metal gear solid also prioritized the mission over everything. But she wasn't a flat character in any sense.

Maybe something will happen in the final episode but as it stands, to me, Emiya is just an unlikeable character with no substance.

EDIT: i don't know, I'm not trying to upset anyone or say they are wrong for thinking Emiya is likeable or deep. I'm just saying what i think. Also, adaptations from books leave aot of inner dialogue out and the thoughts of characters. I'm thinking maybe something got lost in the conversion.
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Last edited by Double_Edge; 2012-06-18 at 22:46.
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Old 2012-06-18, 22:58   Link #222
Ithekro
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Emiya's situations usually seems to be more of kill a small number of people or all the people die. The option to save some over the other is not generally present since the situation usually will result in everyone dying if he does nothing.

Even in the cases were he could just save some of the people and not save the others, the others still die. Sometimes it is just logical conclusion that if he personally kills some of them himself, more will not be killed later.

And by logical I mean, Mages and/or the Church comes in afterwards and kills every witness regardless of what they did or saw. Under the "Save some and everyone else dies, or kill some and the others might live because there is no incident for the mages/Church to cleanup" type rules....logic is about the only sane thing left.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. it might be cold logic, but it is the best he's got.

The more human approach, that the needs of the one, sometime outweigh the needs of the many...elude Emiya. Not because he doesn't want to save the few or the one...but because life has been such that everytime he might be able to do so, the few or the one are taken from him anyway. In this case, the few would be Iris and Illya. And Emiya did want to save them and avoid the War entirely. But the needs of the many won....until the Grail proved to be an evil trap (tricky Grail-kun). Then it was too late.
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Old 2012-06-19, 01:03   Link #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double_Edge View Post

Maybe psychotic isn't the right word. Heartless may be a better description, but he is definitely not right in the head.
if he was heartless he would have put Natalie's life above the millions of people in New York. Kiritsugu's problem is he cares too much, it isn't a case of black and white, good and evil but a weighting of the needs of many. Kiritsugu is very definition of the meaning of "selflessness." If he was a bit more selfish, he would have place more weight on his own happiness and let millions die.

in a way Kiritsugu and Saber are exactly the same. Despite their different views on war, they both place the world above themselves. Kiritsugu sacrifice his happiness and Saber her identify.


PS. it was a hotel not a apt.
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Old 2012-06-19, 01:04   Link #224
Nigale86
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Interesting fact in the animation material booklet that came with the first Bluray Boxset

It was stated when ufotable started planning fate/Zero and it's Feel

Everyone decided that Batman The Dark Knight was a good fit

But it was quite interesting and surprising that they actually used a similar setting from the movie for one of the fights

Another interesting fact is that Urobuchi Gen attended most of the planning meetings and it was actually him that wanted to deviate from the novel the most so much in fact they stated it would've been impossible to return
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Old 2012-06-19, 02:37   Link #225
Jaden
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It's so obvious in this episode that they ran out of time to portray various scenes, and there's a lot of abrupt transitions. That said, as a novel reader I'm mostly watching for fanservice, and Ufotable production quality is still pretty damn solid. So stuff like that isn't going to ruin the mood for me.

However I'm now genuinely interested in what cut content gets in the BD editions. Wonder if this is some plot to sell more of those...
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Old 2012-06-19, 02:54   Link #226
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However I'm now genuinely interested in what cut content gets in the BD editions. Wonder if this is some plot to sell more of those...
Heh heh heh, bingo.
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Old 2012-06-19, 03:11   Link #227
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Originally Posted by Double_Edge View Post
No normal person would be capable of such acts and actually carry it out.
Because a kid who was forced to watch everyone he ever knew being turned into a zombie and massacred, thus driving him to commit patricide, is totally going to grow up to become a normal person, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
Taking Waver's scene with his "grandpa" out would have been horrible. It attributed to his character. Same with Kariya.
Of course removing those scenes would have been horrible. But so was removing (so much of) Saber vs Berserker. Nobody's saying taking out those other scenes would have been absolutely ideal, because there is no entirely good choice here. But, if we try and look for the lesser of evils, there's certainly a handful of scenes that might have been more suitable to be the unfortunate "sacrificial lamb" than Saber vs Berserker. The latter's entire point as a character hinged upon those scenes. Without them he ended up having less of a role and characterization than Assassin. Not only that, it was also, for reasons I've already explained in a previous post, an absolutely character defining moment for Saber, who is supposed to be one of the main characters of the show. No matter how you look at it, there have been scenes that were more fitting to be "extra content" than those.
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Old 2012-06-19, 03:31   Link #228
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Defining perhaps, but not changing. Saber doesn't change because of this. In fact she doesn't change at all from what I can tell until probably Fate/Stay Night. Berserker gets the sad treatment, mainly because in the overall point of things...he is ultimately unimportant to the story save to keep Saber from reaching the Grail in time. Kariya had his story moments and his plot fulfilled. His ending is still sad, but not vital anymore to the plot...even his own plotline. (Least their story wasn't cut entirely.)

Saber is a "main character" only because she's Saber, from Fate/Stay Night. In terms of the plot arcs...she's rather secondary because her story really isn't here....it is in Fate/Stay Night. Her plot basically got a ten year delay because of Kerry it seems ordering her to destroy the Grail. This is Kerry's story, so if there is a need to cut due to time...the plot will favor him over Saber.
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Old 2012-06-19, 03:49   Link #229
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Do you want the quote?
I've read the translations but which quote are you referring to?
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Old 2012-06-19, 03:58   Link #230
Vicious108
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Defining perhaps, but not changing. Saber doesn't change because of this. In fact she doesn't change at all from what I can tell until probably Fate/Stay Night. Berserker gets the sad treatment, mainly because in the overall point of things...he is ultimately unimportant to the story save to keep Saber from reaching the Grail in time. Kariya had his story moments and his plot fulfilled. His ending is still sad, but not vital anymore to the plot...even his own plotline. (Least their story wasn't cut entirely.)

Saber is a "main character" only because she's Saber, from Fate/Stay Night. In terms of the plot arcs...she's rather secondary because her story really isn't here....it is in Fate/Stay Night. Her plot basically got a ten year delay because of Kerry it seems ordering her to destroy the Grail. This is Kerry's story, so if there is a need to cut due to time...the plot will favor him over Saber.
She doesn't change permanently, but she does show an unusual disregard for chivalry from that point on - which is a change - because seeing Lancelot in that miserable state (and hearing his final words which were cut) made her that much more desperate to get her hands on the Grail no matter what. Her state during her confrontation with Gilgamesh (which wasn't properly conveyed in the anime either unfortunately) is a direct result of the weight and impact of her clash with Lancelot held for her. Gilgamesh himself compares her expression to that of a rabid dog's like Berserker, which shows she has indeed changed from her usual self, even if it's just temporary.

And just because Saber's story isn't completed here doesn't mean her journey in F/Z wasn't an important chapter in it (not to mention I find her to be a better written here than in F/SN, although that's beside the point here). Regardless, when did I propose Kiritsugu be the one to have his scenes cut instead of her and why are you acting as if that's the only possibility? He wasn't even mentioned in the original post I quoted (which mentioned Waver and Kariya, who are indeed more secondary to the story than Saber).
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Old 2012-06-19, 05:58   Link #231
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Epic. Though, if only people can say screw TV stations and go an hour rather than 23 minutes on this episode...
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Old 2012-06-19, 07:23   Link #232
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^You should remove that spoiler. That scene is chronologically set after the events of this episode and will definitely be included in the next one.
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Old 2012-06-19, 14:54   Link #233
Doria
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I think the main reason I miss the Lancelot scenes aren't because they're really so compelling in and of themselves, but I think that the episode is deliberately set up to parallel Kiritsugu and Saber's characters.

She martyred herself to carry her people's ideals, while he was willing to be the martyr who carried all the world's evils. But both end up at the exact same place of disillusionment, from opposite ends. Without fully seeing the reason for the disillusionment on her side, I do agree with Endless Twilight that it hurts her characterizations in the ensuing scenes.

I do not claim to know a better way for the production teams to have structured it, but I think it's still fair to say the abbreviation hurts the episode. I will agree with others, though, that I see no way to structure the immediately surrounding episodes that would be better. Last episode felt perfectly paced to me, and I think that moving much of it would have damaged that one instead.

All that said, I watched the episode with my roommate, who has not read the novels, and he had no problems at all with the episode. The missing Lancelot stuff only bothered him after I told him about it, but a priori, was not a problem (though he mentioned the denouement of the fight "seemed abrupt").
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Old 2012-06-19, 17:31   Link #234
DragoZERO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nigale86 View Post
Interesting fact in the animation material booklet that came with the first Bluray Boxset

It was stated when ufotable started planning fate/Zero and it's Feel

Everyone decided that Batman The Dark Knight was a good fit

But it was quite interesting and surprising that they actually used a similar setting from the movie for one of the fights

Another interesting fact is that Urobuchi Gen attended most of the planning meetings and it was actually him that wanted to deviate from the novel the most so much in fact they stated it would've been impossible to return
The two boats reminded me of The Dark Knight too. But that's just coincidence.

I wonder what the next interview booklet will say about all this.
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Old 2012-06-20, 00:50   Link #235
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There were a lot of western influences in that Kotomine vs Kiritsugu fight, which is fairly unusual as the only anime, that I know of, with combat done in a similar Hollywood style, is Cowboy Bebop. The fight opens with a traditional Spaghetti Western standoff with the two combatants standing a few meters apart from each, Kiritsugu’s hand above his holster as the camera glares behind the legs of both participants, before the scene erupts into violence. I’m actually curious as to whether that was a more general reference to Western cinema or whether it was a reference to The Matrix, which is the only other movie or television show, that I know of, set during the Modern Era, with such a scene.

As much as I’ve heard people criticize the “knife scene”, I was getting major déjà vu with Neo’s first and final fight against Smith, in which one combatant attacks while the other passively parries it with a collection of side-arms. I think that this chorography and the chorography for the fight in general, were done extremely well.





And I'm really not sure if I need to explain this one:



Everyone already knows about "The Batcave".
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Old 2012-06-20, 06:06   Link #236
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I think the knife scene wasn't criticized so much for its choreography as it was for the character models of questionable quality in some of the shots:

Spoiler:


It's not a big deal with how fluidly it flows when in motion, but it'd still be nice if they could improve those a little for the BD version, like they did for some episodes in Season 1.
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Old 2012-06-20, 16:54   Link #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post


Because people die when they are killed?
No! That cannot be, there must be some more idealistic solution to all of this. This must be a misunderstanding.

This episode was EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEK

Damn grail-kun trolling hard
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Last edited by Paranoid Android; 2012-06-20 at 17:05.
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Old 2012-06-20, 19:59   Link #238
DragoZERO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post
There were a lot of western influences in that Kotomine vs Kiritsugu fight, which is fairly unusual as the only anime, that I know of, with combat done in a similar Hollywood style, is Cowboy Bebop. The fight opens with a traditional Spaghetti Western standoff with the two combatants standing a few meters apart from each, Kiritsugu’s hand above his holster as the camera glares behind the legs of both participants, before the scene erupts into violence. I’m actually curious as to whether that was a more general reference to Western cinema or whether it was a reference to The Matrix, which is the only other movie or television show, that I know of, set during the Modern Era, with such a scene.

As much as I’ve heard people criticize the “knife scene”, I was getting major déjà vu with Neo’s first and final fight against Smith, in which one combatant attacks while the other passively parries it with a collection of side-arms. I think that this chorography and the chorography for the fight in general, were done extremely well.
Spoiler for Space:


Everyone already knows about "The Batcave".
The Matrix was basically a live action anime done right. So... yeah. There were a lot of similarities to other movies throughout this series. I wonder if it's accidental or not. Sometimes that happens.
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Old 2012-06-20, 20:01   Link #239
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I remember when I watched the last Matrix movie with the fight scene between Smith and Neo and thinking they tried to rip off DBZ and failed miserably, lool.
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Old 2012-06-20, 20:06   Link #240
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^ someone obviously haven't seen the Hong Kong kongfu movies before :P
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