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Old 2012-06-20, 01:16   Link #21
broken270
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Database for Episode 8-9
Spoiler for Floor Map (thanks margafred and AC-Phoenix):

Spoiler for Items:


Spoiler for Notes:

Spoiler for Side Notes:

Spoiler for Main Question:
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Old 2012-06-20, 08:36   Link #22
AC-Phoenix
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The anime floor plan makes me ask whether Kounosu's position on my plan is really right though, because she was drawn outside.
So yes it its technically possible to pull it off like papermario13689 suggested, its abit risky though because someone else could easily come to one of the corridors. So it is possbile to do it this way - too risky though imho considering how she had no chance of doing this without taking the risk of being seen by someone other than the victim.
I'll for now stick with my chute theory, as one would probably need to know the culprits modus operandi in the marked sherlock books, which i haven't read and no time to do so either before the episode comes out. And I hate reading the outcome of a book before anything else... I'll later submit a translated floorplan from the novel's illustrations btw - no spoilers in there the novel is not as far ahead the anime to give out any cluees. (at least not the translated version)

Please also note that we don't know if the room was really locked or Katsuta just pretended that he found it locked - no one else ever checked it.


Edit:
Here is the promised floor plan - its the Novel's, so you so please ignore the 'control room' labels and replace them with waiting room in your mind.
I also took the liberty of drawing papermario's and my theory in as I have yet to hear any other theories involving the rope(See page 1 for both in more detail).
the gold somehow turned orange on the map - so ignore the color inconsistency.
Spoiler for space:


I do btw have a theory allowing to enter the right stage room from the left in the meantime, but if this is true I'm going to puke over this floor plan....


Edit --> Badnews:
Both theories are sound and very much possible, but only if you have watched the anime, becasue the Novel neither mention's the chute nor any other windows than the one in Kaito's room - so we don't know if they were opened like in the anime.
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Last edited by AC-Phoenix; 2012-06-20 at 16:45.
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Old 2012-06-21, 05:34   Link #23
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The problem here is that we have two different mysteries to solve:
- the original one as intended by Hongou
- a new one that has to make sense after the film crew messed around with the script

As mentioned before the room only has the appearance of being a closed room. There are some ways to circumvent the door being closed. The window is of course irrelevant, and Iíll ignore whatever trapdoor there could be as no such device has been made evident. Itís also likely that the master key is a red herring. The possibilities are:
- Katsuta faked the door being closed
- The key seen next to Kaitoís severed arm is not the roomís key, but the murdererís
- The murderer made a double of the keys on a previous trip (only Kounosu could have done that since sheís the one who suggested the building)
- There was no murder, and Kaito closed the room himself (quite possible in Hongouís original script; unlikely in the movie alteration unless Kaito has an unrevealed twin brother, which would break a Knox rule)

Now if murder there was, who could have done it?
- Kounousu: has it easiest since she can climb down the wall with the rope on her side of the building and enter through a window, without risking being seen. The rope is then used to climb back up.
- Katsuta and Yamanishi: have it hardest as no matter where they go through they risk being seen by another party. It would also certainly require them to be accomplices.
- Sugimura and Senoue: same as above

So either:
- Kounosu is the murderer, and she left her key in the room
- Kounosu is the murderer, and Katsuta is her accomplice
There are also possibilities which involve more of the classmates to work together, but thatís stretching it too far to be plausible meta-wise.
Making a ďKounousu killed Kaito and disguised the closed roomĒ hypothesis works quite well. Somehow it doesnít feel satisfying though; itís too obvious. Itís the sort of easy speculation Cpt. Hastings or Inspector Japp would make before being deconstructed by Poirot.


Note that a ďmystery without murderĒ is quite possible in Hongouís original script, especially if one considers her inspiration. It would help knowing if Kaitou was confirmed dead in the novel, as itís not clear from the script we were allowed to read in the anime.
It does break Van Dineís seventh rule though.
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Old 2012-06-21, 09:41   Link #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by don_Durandal View Post
The problem here is that we have two different mysteries to solve:
- the original one as intended by Hongou
- a new one that has to make sense after the film crew messed around with the script

As mentioned before the room only has the appearance of being a closed room. There are some ways to circumvent the door being closed. The window is of course irrelevant, and Iíll ignore whatever trapdoor there could be as no such device has been made evident. Itís also likely that the master key is a red herring. The possibilities are:
- Katsuta faked the door being closed
- The key seen next to Kaitoís severed arm is not the roomís key, but the murdererís
- The murderer made a double of the keys on a previous trip (only Kounosu could have done that since sheís the one who suggested the building)
- There was no murder, and Kaito closed the room himself (quite possible in Hongouís original script; unlikely in the movie alteration unless Kaito has an unrevealed twin brother, which would break a Knox rule)

Now if murder there was, who could have done it?
- Kounousu: has it easiest since she can climb down the wall with the rope on her side of the building and enter through a window, without risking being seen. The rope is then used to climb back up.
- Katsuta and Yamanishi: have it hardest as no matter where they go through they risk being seen by another party. It would also certainly require them to be accomplices.
- Sugimura and Senoue: same as above

So either:
- Kounosu is the murderer, and she left her key in the room
- Kounosu is the murderer, and Katsuta is her accomplice
There are also possibilities which involve more of the classmates to work together, but thatís stretching it too far to be plausible meta-wise.
Making a ďKounousu killed Kaito and disguised the closed roomĒ hypothesis works quite well. Somehow it doesnít feel satisfying though; itís too obvious. Itís the sort of easy speculation Cpt. Hastings or Inspector Japp would make before being deconstructed by Poirot.


Note that a ďmystery without murderĒ is quite possible in Hongouís original script, especially if one considers her inspiration. It would help knowing if Kaitou was confirmed dead in the novel, as itís not clear from the script we were allowed to read in the anime.
It does break Van Dineís seventh rule though.
Aye I'll also have to give up on my chute theory, as the novel has no chute at all.
So I'm basically back where I started out before I saw that chute.
Katsuta faked that the room was closed.

There is another option though.
That marketing girl gave Eru a book with the meeting protocoll, where they took viotes on the rmurder weapon one of them was a rope the majority however decided on a knife - with a note added in () 'Houngu has the final say' afterwards she ordered a rope.
I therefore conclude that the rope is the murder weapon, which does again point to Kounosu as the culprit since she is the only one having acess to it through her club.
Plus it would open up a possibility to murder kaitou while being the smallest girl.

Katsuta ccould have btw also used a window to get to the crime scene, namely the one in his own control room.
Oreki's arguemnt that everyone would see him is just valid as long as the culprit does not walk around the building from the front - Both Yamanishi and Sugimura wouldn't have had him in their Line of sight of he sticked close to the wall.
So basically:
Out of his own control room ---> Sticking close to the FRONTAL wall--> getting back inside other control room --> murdering Kaitou--> going back the same way he got there.

Another notable thing about Sawaguchi's note is that they were discussing how many culpirts the movie should have.
They decided for more than one killer with the same mark as above 'Houngu has the final say'
--> Violation of van Dine ---> Houngu decided for but one culpirt

No matter how you look at it - Kounosu is probably the culprit - the only question that remains is the howdunnit, since you can't use the rope for both climbing down and murdering Kaitou
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Old 2012-06-21, 21:19   Link #25
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Hey, thanks for drawing up the little theories on the map, AC-Phoenix. It really helps puts things into perspective. Since the atrium was only accessible from the left side where two others would have been exploring, my top guess would be that Kounosu used the window with the "alternative location" marker.

The weapon (or perhaps lack thereof) interests me. There are plenty of ways to kill someone instantly from behind, despite a difference in size. I find it odd how they mention that anything you need to solve the mystery is in the film itself, but then they disclose the information about the rope and Kounosu's background afterwards. Either way, Kounosu might have had the knowledge on how to kill instantly from behind, or perhaps her backpack contained more things that a skilled climber would know how to use. How about rock picks? Who says there's one rope? Stuff like that could be food for thought.

And look at me prattling on saying "Kounosu this, and Kounosu that". I'm still finding myself in an unsettling accusation when I'm blaming the quiet and mysterious girl. I can't be sure it's Kounosu, but at the moment she has the most clues leading back to her.
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Old 2012-06-22, 06:10   Link #26
AC-Phoenix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papermario13689 View Post
Hey, thanks for drawing up the little theories on the map, AC-Phoenix. It really helps puts things into perspective. Since the atrium was only accessible from the left side where two others would have been exploring, my top guess would be that Kounosu used the window with the "alternative location" marker.

The weapon (or perhaps lack thereof) interests me. There are plenty of ways to kill someone instantly from behind, despite a difference in size. I find it odd how they mention that anything you need to solve the mystery is in the film itself, but then they disclose the information about the rope and Kounosu's background afterwards. Either way, Kounosu might have had the knowledge on how to kill instantly from behind, or perhaps her backpack contained more things that a skilled climber would know how to use. How about rock picks? Who says there's one rope? Stuff like that could be food for thought.

And look at me prattling on saying "Kounosu this, and Kounosu that". I'm still finding myself in an unsettling accusation when I'm blaming the quiet and mysterious girl. I can't be sure it's Kounosu, but at the moment she has the most clues leading back to her.
I think the rope is the murder weapon.
See post above.
Question is how she got into the room then because you can't use it as both weapon and way to get down.

And don't worry Katsuta is just as suspicious as her; he could have still used his own window and walked around the front close to the wall, though very unlikely as the novel does not mention any other windows than the one on the crime scene.
Also note that the Novel floor plan is slightly different from the anime floor plan. The anime floor plan makes you wonder whether katsuta really had no chance of going there without being seen by Sugimura.
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Old 2012-06-22, 06:43   Link #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
I think the rope is the murder weapon.
See post above.
Question is how she got into the room then because you can't use it as both weapon and way to get down.

And don't worry Katsuta is just as suspicious as her; he could have still used his own window and walked around the front close to the wall, though very unlikely as the novel does not mention any other windows than the one on the crime scene.
Also note that the Novel floor plan is slightly different from the anime floor plan. The anime floor plan makes you wonder whether katsuta really had no chance of going there without being seen by Sugimura.
Do you mean by strangulation? I suppose we didn't see his neck in the film, but nobody seems to mention rope burns around the neck afterwards. At the moment, it's a mere possibility. But like I said, who said there can only be one rope? Kounosu could have one to climb down/up and another in her backpack to use as the murder weapon (if it truly was the murder weapon).

And I thought the production called for nobody to touch the grass? The murderer had to have entered without setting foot to the outside grass or have never exited to begin with. At the moment, Kounosu does seem the most suspect.
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Old 2012-06-22, 08:02   Link #28
AC-Phoenix
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Originally Posted by papermario13689 View Post
Do you mean by strangulation? I suppose we didn't see his neck in the film, but nobody seems to mention rope burns around the neck afterwards. At the moment, it's a mere possibility. But like I said, who said there can only be one rope? Kounosu could have one to climb down/up and another in her backpack to use as the murder weapon (if it truly was the murder weapon).

And I thought the production called for nobody to touch the grass? The murderer had to have entered without setting foot to the outside grass or have never exited to begin with. At the moment, Kounosu does seem the most suspect.
I hope this clears up what I'm talking about:


but yes I agree Kounosu is still the prime suspect and your theory about the key switch the most likely atm.
We still don't know how she got there though - the chute is impossible (not mentioned in novel therefore not existing)
Other windows being open were not mentioned either, you can assume that they are the same as the one on the crime scene though - not opened for several years.

Edit June 23rd:
Read the novel in the meantime - you'll read my rant in a few days :O
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Old 2012-06-23, 17:37   Link #29
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I think I understand, but I have to ask:

- You're implying that Katsuta left the control room through the window, went around from the outside and then into the room next to Kaitou's, much like Kounosu could have from above. Do correct me if I'm mistaken, but didn't they say one wasn't allowed to touch the grass? Perhaps they meant just the grass they could see in the film.

- Either way, that brings up another concern of mine. Couldn't Yamanishi be just as suspicious using your theory? That room is actually closer and wouldn't require sneaking past anyone's rooms either.
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Old 2012-06-23, 19:38   Link #30
AC-Phoenix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papermario13689 View Post
I think I understand, but I have to ask:

- You're implying that Katsuta left the control room through the window, went around from the outside and then into the room next to Kaitou's, much like Kounosu could have from above. Do correct me if I'm mistaken, but didn't they say one wasn't allowed to touch the grass? Perhaps they meant just the grass they could see in the film.

- Either way, that brings up another concern of mine. Couldn't Yamanishi be just as suspicious using your theory? That room is actually closer and wouldn't require sneaking past anyone's rooms either.
No only Katsuta could have done it like I said, because he was the one testing the door and later unlocking it - thus the only one being able to fake it.

Regarding the grass: Only the one in front of the crime scene.

rest: See the edit in my post above :/
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Old 2012-06-25, 01:40   Link #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
I hope this clears up what I'm talking about:
Is it possible that Katsuta used the rope and climbed to the ceiling of the building and then used it again to go to the control room?

I guess Kounosu would be able to do that too.

Also the blockage to the path of the left stage seemed like it could have been done by someone.
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Old 2012-06-25, 04:59   Link #32
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If you are asking if i meant that he climbed up - No i meant that he ran around the front and got to said 1st floor window.
And no, you can't climb up without being on the uppeer level first as you have to make sure that the rope is safe to use.
So the only person who could have done it atm is Kounosu.

Another thing I brought up in the EP 10 discussion thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
You know the problem is not just the rope alone, but also the amount of blood that should have been used.
It actually raises the question if the crime has really happend where the body was found.
Please watch again and take a close look at the Author's amount of blood and the one the requisition team produced in the end.
As you can see the difference is remarkable and also no longer the difference between post and ante mortem
This actually points to another place as the crime scene, which brings us back to the rope meant to not snap under a person's weight.
Who tells us that the murderer has used it in order to get to the crime scene and not to bring the body there?This does again point to Kounosu btw -> Kaitou and Kounosu planned to meat up abovve from the start, they might have even planned to murder someone else together but kounosu backstabbed him. Oh and as for how he got up to her; Of course with the rope she let down.
Its also no problem that she is small as she she only needed to support him a bit and swing him in.
Which brings something else up - Did Katsuta have a hard time opening the window because it was damaged or because is been a long time since it got opened?
Also what about the knife? You need one for the cut off arm.

Another solution would be a trap inside the room laid by Kounosu or Katsuta.

This is btw not a single bit more obnoxious than the camera man theroy, its actually more likely than the camera man theory since it involves all the clues Hongou has left behind...
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Old 2012-06-25, 15:18   Link #33
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I'm thinking that the culprit is the glasses boy sugimura. I can't explain how this theory could work though so I'll just tell you guys how it happened.
Sugimura entered the equipment room, and found a rope. He opened the window and used the rope to leave his room so that no one will notice him. Then he went to find kaitou and he attacked him. He exchange keys with the victim and locked the room, and then return to his room using the rope again. I was suspecting that he injured himself while returning to his room, the window probably have broken glass and he cut himself. That can explain why he touch the victims blood.

Oh I almost forgot. There's one thing I have to mention in here. Kounosu is the detective. It's pretty obvious so don't ask why. Just watch the video again and you'll easily figure it out.

Last edited by unsuspectingvisitor; 2012-06-25 at 15:32.
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Old 2012-06-25, 15:35   Link #34
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My first thought was that the rope was related to some kind of actualsuicide connected to the author. After all, we don't really know why the writer is ill, and it would explain why Oreki never considered the rope (because he was thinking from the film's perspective and didn't consider the outside). It's a bit of a stretch though.
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Old 2012-06-25, 19:06   Link #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor View Post
I'm thinking that the culprit is the glasses boy sugimura. I can't explain how this theory could work though so I'll just tell you guys how it happened.
Sugimura entered the equipment room, and found a rope. He opened the window and used the rope to leave his room so that no one will notice him. Then he went to find kaitou and he attacked him. He exchange keys with the victim and locked the room, and then return to his room using the rope again. I was suspecting that he injured himself while returning to his room, the window probably have broken glass and he cut himself. That can explain why he touch the victims blood.

Oh I almost forgot. There's one thing I have to mention in here. Kounosu is the detective. It's pretty obvious so don't ask why. Just watch the video again and you'll easily figure it out.
The detective is the 7th person as no person was designated as the detective. And since we already know that the camera man theory is wrong this can only mean that said person is the detective.
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Old 2012-06-25, 19:27   Link #36
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I'm kinda interested, should I give this series a try?
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Old 2012-06-25, 19:29   Link #37
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I'm kinda interested, should I give this series a try?
If you like mysteries, this is like asking if you have to eat and drink.
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Old 2012-06-25, 23:32   Link #38
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The detective is the 7th person as no person was designated as the detective. And since we already know that the camera man theory is wrong this can only mean that said person is the detective.
No I disagree. It was hinted that kounosu was the detective. It was shown a lot that she was quite knowledgable and she have great observation skill. Infact, She was the one who found the flour map of the building, and she know where to find the keys. She can also discern what the master key looks like.

I don't think that there's a 7th person though. That's just a stupid presumption of the main character.
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Old 2012-06-26, 05:39   Link #39
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Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor View Post
No I disagree. It was hinted that kounosu was the detective. It was shown a lot that she was quite knowledgable and she have great observation skill. Infact, She was the one who found the flour map of the building, and she know where to find the keys. She can also discern what the master key looks like.

I don't think that there's a 7th person though. That's just a stupid presumption of the main character.
She didin't really find it but knew where it was from start, as she was the one suggesting to go in this specidic building.
If you examine the rope they have shown us you will quickly realize that it is a rope meant for climbing. --> She is in the mountaineering club...

Ad 7th person: No he is right; hongou was looking for a 7th actor.

Plus she is the only one able to Pull this crme off using a rope atm - and Knox 7th the detective himself must not commit the crime.
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Old 2012-06-26, 07:09   Link #40
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I'm basing my statements from memory, but when Oreki concluded the mystery, he did not specify the tools and method of murder the suspect used, only how the killer is able to get into the victim's room without suspicion. There's also blood used as props, if that was the case then the murderer will have traces on blood either on them or the tool they used. Which raises a question on why there was no suspicion, even on the suspect themselves, of blood?

Which leads me to think that the rope might play a role on that somehow, but how, I can't think further than that...
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