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Old 2012-06-21, 08:12   Link #41
solidguy
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I read the chapter title like this
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Old 2012-06-21, 08:53   Link #42
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post

I liked that part. it was very ninja-like imo which doesn't happen too much in this story oddly enough. they knew they were no match for itachi's MS and they knew his choice so they just accepted their fates and found inner peace before dying. almost like seppuku but at the hands of someone else.
but they are his parents, I still think it was stupid,
parents killed and betrayed by their own son and still proud of him? thats the most stupidest thing ive ever heard....
it should have been like "why did you do this" or "How could you do this to us itachi?"

If im correct, the parents actually dont know why Itachi killed them, so why the fuck be proud of him. He is a betrayer
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Old 2012-06-21, 08:59   Link #43
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Well, they were smart people, they knew the direction things were going and that their options were indeed limited...still, I would rather see the Uchiha clan ostracized from the village entirely and either go back to their mercenary lifestyle or make a smaller village of their own.
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Old 2012-06-21, 09:49   Link #44
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I'd hardly consider finding a cleaner solution for Hiruzen than mounting a full ANBU assault "undercutting" him. And as we know from previous accounts, it's not like Hiruzen didn't know about Itachi being assigned to this. The only statement we have from anyone on how the negotiations actually went is that they failed, not that they were cut short. What I found surprising about the whole situation was that in terms of methodology, Danzou could almost be perceived as the nice one between the two of them in this chapter.
I'm always amazed by the endless ways people can interpret things no matter how straight foward they are. Let's summarize what actually happened in this chapter :
  • Shishui wanted to stop the coup d'etat but Danzou didn't trust him to do so and ripped his eye out for his own use.
  • Upon learning of the coup the Elders wants the Uchiha to be treated as traitors whereas Sarutobi tells them not to be so hasty.
  • Danzou claims they must kill them all including all the children and Sarutobi tell him not to be so callous in front of Itachi.
  • Danzou says they must attack by surprise first whereas Sarutobi refuses because the Uchiha are their comrades, explain he will find a way to resolve things without resorting to violence and order Itachi to stall for time.
  • Unbeknownst to the 3rd, Danzou goes to Itachi, tell him nothing will stop the slaughter of the Uchiha and order him to murder his entire clan in exchange for the life of his little brother.

Your take on this : Danzou is the nice one(!), Sarutobi had the same intention and knew all about this. It's quite amazing really because to me it looks like opposite day.

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but they are his parents, I still think it was stupid,
parents killed and betrayed by their own son and still proud of him? thats the most stupidest thing ive ever heard....
it should have been like "why did you do this" or "How could you do this to us itachi?"

If im correct, the parents actually dont know why Itachi killed them, so why the fuck be proud of him. He is a betrayer
Itachi is supposed to be a tragic hero taken into a downward spiral of events out of his control where he ended up having to make a choice between two terrible evils. The author is very adament to the fact that no one can blame him to the point that even his victims love him and would rather die like cattle rather than fight back. It's beautiful.
More seriously it didn't work for you which I can relate to since I also think it's plain bullshit but that's how you're supposed to take the story.
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Old 2012-06-21, 12:56   Link #45
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The author is very adament to the fact that no one can blame him to the point that even his victims love him and would rather die like cattle rather than fight back. It's beautiful.


I feel like Kishi dug himself into a hole with this whole Itachi storyline, even though he keeps trying to patch it up. Overall it was a nice farewell at least.
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Old 2012-06-21, 13:02   Link #46
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Originally Posted by yakumo-chan View Post
but they are his parents, I still think it was stupid,
parents killed and betrayed by their own son and still proud of him? thats the most stupidest thing ive ever heard....
it should have been like "why did you do this" or "How could you do this to us itachi?"
I get where you're coming from, but this isn't a normal culture we're talking about. itachi's parents were clearly thinking about honor and duty to clan or village when they died, not about personal grief. its considered honorable for warriors to die like itachi's parents did

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If im correct, the parents actually dont know why Itachi killed them, so why the fuck be proud of him. He is a betrayer
we can't know for sure, but my interpretation was that itachi had put them under tsukiomi and told them everything. to be in that position on the ground implies that itachi had already used MS on them to immobilize them. they seemed to understand very well what was going on, which is why you didn't get the reaction from them that you were looking for. perhaps mentally, they were already passed the denial and questioning stages and had come to accept their fate at their own son's hand. staging a coup was certainly not an easy choice to make and it sounds like the uchiha waited as long as they possibly could despite the ostracism. so they could have felt guilt for their actions to attack their own village (despite its necessity to them) and they could have wanted judgment like how itachi wanted it from sasuke for the massacre (despite him deeming it necessary)
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Old 2012-06-21, 15:05   Link #47
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they loved their son and very proud of him no matter what choices he made in life. even if it was against his clan. needs of many out weigh a few type thing, im sure they knew a civil war would break out into a major war.

what itachi needed to hear was that his choices was his alone and that he wouldnt be hated for it but be loved. he wanted to do the same for his brother. he wanted his bro to know that while he dislikes his path, hes still proud of him and loves him and always will.
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Old 2012-06-21, 15:18   Link #48
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Pretty sure that his parents were at least suspicious of Itachi, judging by the way things were after the police tried to arrest him. Also, Itachi's father always told Sasuke to grow up to be like his big brother but when Itachi's behavior changed he told Sasuke not to become like Itachi. When Itachi came to kill them they put 2 & 2 together and realized he was working for Konoha.
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Old 2012-06-21, 16:17   Link #49
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So how did Itachi get his mangekyou anyway? Was the whole "kill your best friend" thing all bunk?
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Old 2012-06-21, 16:23   Link #50
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He killed Shisui.
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Old 2012-06-21, 16:33   Link #51
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He killed Shisui.
Timeline-wise was there a large gap between where he was talking to the eyeless Shisui and the massacre?

I thought Itachi had the mangekyou even before that?
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Old 2012-06-21, 16:46   Link #52
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About 1.5 years.
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Old 2012-06-21, 16:53   Link #53
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I feel like Kishi dug himself into a hole with this whole Itachi storyline, even though he keeps trying to patch it up. Overall it was a nice farewell at least.
It's actually the best story line of the manga. You can attack it in many ways, but if you look at other parts of the manga you can see that it's not any worse than those in terms of plot holes. I mean look at the decision of Minato to die and leave his village and his son to their "fate". Also we can't analyse ninja's thinking using our way of thinking, we live in a very advanced and peaceful society, our thinking about the world is completely different. In ancient civilizations people believed in fate and gods and such things much more. They lived in a world full of secrets and random events which they could not explain, they could randomly die any day. I mean imagine if we didn't have our social security and health care, add to that the chance that some unknown magical creature like the kyuubi attacks or some magical warriors (ninjas) attack or that simply you run out of food and starve because nature decided that it doesn't like you. In such circumstances people try to find rational explanations, like "it's fate", there's a "savior", etc. So Minato did believe that his son is a "savior" and did something that is very stupid if we simply analyze it logically. Compared to that Itachi had much more logic behind his decisions, he did what seemed to be the best thing to do. Also Itachi was a child, he was about 12-13 years old, and raised in a crazy world where people like Danzou and his father ordered him what to do.

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Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
I thought Itachi had the mangekyou even before that?
I remember Itachi telling that he "awakened MS and Susano on that fateful day", which seems to be the day that Shisui died. I guess Shisui told him to kill him in order to gain MS. But now that Itachi's story seems to be clear, there's Shisui's story, how did he get his MS and why was he so extremely loyal to Konoha that he let Danzou take his eye. I mean if we look at how evil and ugly Danzou is then it's hard to believe that any mentally sane Uchiha would choose Danzou over his own clan. If i were in their place i would use my MS to take the lead in the clan, kill the elders and take over Konoha. Itachi did know about the plan of the elders to ambush the Uchiha so that they kill them before they begin a civil war. However thinking logically this works both ways and in a society that's based on power it would be logical that if Itachi/Shisui and Tobi take out the whole elder council and some top jounins then the logical decision of the remaining jounins is to accept the new leadership instead of going to civil war and then war against other villages. In that case Shisui or Itachi would be the 5th hokage and Naruto would be under their "protection" (just like Danzou wanted Naruto to be under his "protection").
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Old 2012-06-21, 19:43   Link #54
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and I thought the eye ball fetish went away...
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Old 2012-06-21, 19:44   Link #55
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and I thought the eye ball fetish went away...
Just be grateful its "eye" ball fetish rather than.........
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Old 2012-06-22, 01:44   Link #56
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I had a thought about the whole argument "Why the heck didn't Itachi's parents defend themselves" thing. At the point where Itachi confronts his parents, the rest of the Uchiha have already been killed. If you remember from the anime, Sasuke sees all the murdered people in the streets before he comes home to find Itachi.

Probably, by the time Itachi reveals the truth to them, everyone else is already dead, and Konoha knows that Fugaku and Mikoto are the leaders of the coup. Ergo, they are already screwed by the time Itachi finds them. At that point, either Itachi kills them or they will be executed by Konoha *cough cough, Danzo, cough cough*. I think their decision to let Itachi kill them makes a lot of sense.

Any thoughts?
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Old 2012-06-22, 03:08   Link #57
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Just be grateful its "eye" ball fetish rather than.........
No no, judging by the bromance levels I'm pretty sure there's 'that' too.
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Old 2012-06-22, 03:13   Link #58
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But now that Itachi's story seems to be clear, there's Shisui's story, how did he get his MS and why was he so extremely loyal to Konoha that he let Danzou take his eye. I mean if we look at how evil and ugly Danzou is then it's hard to believe that any mentally sane Uchiha would choose Danzou over his own clan. If i were in their place i would use my MS to take the lead in the clan, kill the elders and take over Konoha. Itachi did know about the plan of the elders to ambush the Uchiha so that they kill them before they begin a civil war. However thinking logically this works both ways and in a society that's based on power it would be logical that if Itachi/Shisui and Tobi take out the whole elder council and some top jounins then the logical decision of the remaining jounins is to accept the new leadership instead of going to civil war and then war against other villages. In that case Shisui or Itachi would be the 5th hokage and Naruto would be under their "protection" (just like Danzou wanted Naruto to be under his "protection").
Danzou has a way of being convincing, just like he told Itachi that he either kills his family in exchange for his brother, or they all die like dogs and Konoha is destroyed too. Essentially it's blackmail. I doubt if Itachi and Shisui could kill Danzou and Hiruzen at that stage anyway, and the rest of the Uchiha aren't even comparable to Madara's generation of Uchiha. No doubt Tobi would also appear to screw things up for both sides.
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Old 2012-06-22, 04:11   Link #59
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I had a thought about the whole argument "Why the heck didn't Itachi's parents defend themselves" thing. At the point where Itachi confronts his parents, the rest of the Uchiha have already been killed. If you remember from the anime, Sasuke sees all the murdered people in the streets before he comes home to find Itachi.

Probably, by the time Itachi reveals the truth to them, everyone else is already dead, and Konoha knows that Fugaku and Mikoto are the leaders of the coup. Ergo, they are already screwed by the time Itachi finds them. At that point, either Itachi kills them or they will be executed by Konoha *cough cough, Danzo, cough cough*. I think their decision to let Itachi kill them makes a lot of sense.

Any thoughts?
first of all Itachi might have caught his parents by surprise, Itachi is a top class ninja we can't expect anything less of him and even if he had engaged in an eye to eye battle with his father , itachi had mangekyou sharingan so there is no way that itachi will lose
And even though they were on wrong terms with each other , they were still his parents ,and they loved itachi, they wouldn't put up much resistance even if their son comes to kill them, besides his parents understood in what situation itachi was and they also understood that by getting themselves killed they will ensure the safety of their younger child ,sasuke.
so instead of initiating the coup and getting the family slaughtered by the konoha, they died by the hands of their son and ensure their children's safety
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Old 2012-06-22, 07:02   Link #60
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Pretty Emotional chapter, aside for the cheesiness and the cliche

What really stood out too me was how sure Danzou/Hiruzen were of Konoha's military strength. I don't know if it was just a mere tactic to act in such confidence to convince Itachi, considering how well famed the sharingran/uchiha are... Danzou doesn't have a shroud of doubt that the Uchiha would be annihilated. Shisui and Itachi must have been to only powerhouses in the clan or something.
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