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Old 2012-06-18, 15:39   Link #4081
VezSketch
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
^That's mainly because:

a) While 5th Gen Bardiche have a far better performance than AEC-Equipements it's still forced to nerf Fate's powers somewhat when she fights under the effects of the Eclipse so her attacks, while still strong and effective, aren't as powerfull as always and...
Any proof of this?

Sette and Tre > S1 Fate. That's a given, though, correct me if I'm wrong. Pretty sure I'm not. S1 Fate blocked S1 Nanoha's Divine Buster with a round shield and I think it's safe to say she could survive it without being knocked out with just her barrier jacket. Fate OHK'd both of them. Are they just absurdly more powerful in StrikerS than they used to be in?

Last edited by VezSketch; 2012-06-18 at 16:24.
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Old 2012-06-18, 20:20   Link #4082
Akiyoshi
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From here:

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Therefore, in situations of magic cancellation, the fifth generation devices can create nonfatal attacks such as shocks and stuns without relying on direct output of magical energy. Under perfect conditions, even stronger effects can be achieved.
5th Gen Bardiche allows Fate to perform decent magical attacks an effects under the effects of the Eclipse but can only reach their full potential in normal conditions.
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Old 2012-06-21, 10:26   Link #4083
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Physical attacks from the high tiers seem to be as tough as powerful spells, am I getting something wrong there?
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Old 2012-06-21, 14:11   Link #4084
Akiyoshi
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I think i don't understand your question quite well but i think what you say it's true to some degree. Belkan Knights's basic physical attacks seem to pack quite the punch, at least Signum and Vita seem to hit hard enough to cause decent damage even without magical boosts, physical attacks have their limits, tough. No matter how hard they hit the are nowhere as powefull as high-tier spells who have monstruous and wide area of damage like Excellion Buster for example.

The main difference is that direct physicall attacks work better as anti-personel damage while magical spells have a much greater variety of options.
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Old 2012-06-21, 14:37   Link #4085
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Nowhere near as powerful as Exelion Buster, yeah. Definitely wasn't talking about S Rank spells. For example, Vita was able to smash one of Reinforce's barriers without her device suffering damage like we see what happens when she tries to smash the engine of the Cradle. Zest with Full Drive cracked opened Graf Eisen (in its compact gigantform and its the full drive form in StrikerS, it should carry the same durability) with a physical hit.

Two more: Isis blocked Signum's Hiryu Issen but DeVille got her good with just one strike. DeVille isn't physically stronger than the strongest members of Section Six. And Nanoha being able to physically contend with Vivio, despite Vivio being able to break Nanoha's barriers with punches.
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Old 2012-06-21, 16:07   Link #4086
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A physical magic attack is, as it's name suggests, a physical attack powered by magic. Logically it should be able to achieve the same power, with the only limitation being that it is... well... physical, and thus often limited to the range and radius of the weapon in question. Explosions on impact do widen distance though, and increasing the size of the weapon (gigant hammer could smash a well sized apartment block) also helps.

I would not underestimate the strength of the Hucks. While it's true they don't have magic, their eclispse simulates similar effects. Including empowering physical attacks.
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Old 2012-06-22, 00:06   Link #4087
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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Two more: Isis blocked Signum's Hiryu Issen but DeVille got her good with just one strike. DeVille isn't physically stronger than the strongest members of Section Six. And Nanoha being able to physically contend with Vivio, despite Vivio being able to break Nanoha's barriers with punches.
It think i can explain those.

Isis is an explosives expert and by the looks of her blocking i doubt she blocked the attack directly with her body, maybe she have special barrier to contain explosive attacks or countered with her own explosive attack (it's known a chain of explosions can be stopped by another well placed one). The same goes for Agito tanking Silver Hammer, as it's an attack coming from a Divider i really doubt Agito could stop it just with barriers so i guess she could provoke another counter-reaction in order to block the attack.

The thing is that the Huckebein are, in fact, physically stronger than the stronger members of Section Six(Arguably Vita, Signum and Subaru). They seem to be lacking in matter of shields and barriers but you probably don't need that when you have a virtually indestructible body that can also regenerate. Deville was able to damage Erio's Strike Cannon in one swing with an unreacted Divider proving his great strenght. Veyron as well by catching and damaging Subaru's Revolver Knuckle (altough that probably has more to do with his Claw Grab). Curren and Tohma put the ice on the cake by destroying easily Strike Cannons and Fortress units xD The fact Isis actually survived having her neck snapped by a direct hit from Deville is proof of her uncanny physical durability (superior to Vita's and almost on the level of EC-Drivers themselves).

Nanoha was able to go toe to toe with Sankt Kaiser Vivio more likely due to her enormous boost from Blaster-3 who focuses on strenghening barriers around her body so she can contend with the humongous might of Vivio. It was amazing but it had consequences for Nanoha ...probably permanent.
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Old 2012-06-22, 03:23   Link #4088
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It should also be noted that Nanoha never physically attacked Vivio. Or attacked Vivio at all, really. She just kept shielding herself and binding Vivio, buying time to find Quattro.
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Old 2012-06-22, 08:28   Link #4089
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Nanoha blocked a punch from Vivio and was clashing with her, so no. She was, however, using the Blaster System.

Quote:
Isis is an explosives expert and by the looks of her blocking i doubt she blocked the attack directly with her body, maybe she have special barrier to contain explosive attacks or countered with her own explosive attack (it's known a chain of explosions can be stopped by another well placed one). The same goes for Agito tanking Silver Hammer, as it's an attack coming from a Divider i really doubt Agito could stop it just with barriers so i guess she could provoke another counter-reaction in order to block the attack.
Meaningless speculation, how about some actual supporting evidence? What you doubt isn't significant to anyone. We saw them both block the attacks and they weren't shown to do anything specific - Occam's razor dictates they just blocked them until anything brings that into doubt and I doubt anything will. It's not like they could match the firepower all of a sudden, but being capable of blocking it sits well with how the series work (Zafira blocked an AAA rank spell, the same as Hiryū Issen - they're both at least as strong as the Divine Buster was)

Quote:
The thing is that the Huckebein are, in fact, physically stronger than the stronger members of Section Six(Arguably Vita, Signum and Subaru).
Subaru? LOL. Subaru has no feats to suggest that, so that's pretty much a load of crap. As far as we know at the moment, Nanoha and Fate are far stronger than her and she'll never be close to them. Vita (she lifted a hammer hundreds of meters in size and swung it amazingly fast in under a second, the kinetic energy involved in that without factoring in the magic-enhanced attack ... and don't forget Zest broke Graf Eisen) got owned by Zest. Signum showed superiority over Cypha and had a better showing against Zest along with Fate (Jet Zanber is as powerful as Vita's gigantform, something she uses as a regular old melee attack after A's - she can one shot people who can block her Jet Zanber with her Riot forms) showing superiority over Base DeVille. Where have they proven to themselves to be stronger than the strongest members of Section Six? Curren is likely stronger than everyone, though.

Quote:
Deville was able to damage Erio's Strike Cannon in one swing with an unreacted Divider proving his great strenght.
Eh, so? Quinn also cut up Erio's Strike Cannon with an unreacted Divider, Cypha downright curb stomped her. Signum, Nanoha, Fate, or even Vita could do the same.

Quote:
Veyron as well by catching and damaging Subaru's Revolver Knuckle (altough that probably has more to do with his Claw Grab).
Not particularly impressive as Subaru has done nothing particularly impressive. The only way to somehow gauge her power (along with Teana and Erio) is through rank and scaling her with Arf and Zafira, two characters with impressive feats - they're all AA ranks.

Quote:
Curren and Tohma put the ice on the cake by destroying easily Strike Cannons and Fortress units xD
Not particularly impressive, considering Nanoha can physically contend with Thoma and wasn't trying to hurt him. Curren is likely stronger than everyone, though. She owned Vita, but Vita hasn't exactly proven she can take a S-Rank attack head on or that such a feat can be applied to her.

Quote:
The fact Isis actually survived having her neck snapped by a direct hit from Deville is proof of her uncanny physical durability (superior to Vita's and almost on the level of EC-Drivers themselves).
Not at all. That's a massive leap in logic and something you can't prove.
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Old 2012-06-22, 09:05   Link #4090
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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Nanoha blocked a punch from Vivio and was clashing with her, so no. She was, however, using the Blaster System.
Note that I used the word "attacked" not "fight." She was fighting with Vivio, yes, but she didn't attack Vivio. Much less in melee. After all, it was never her intent to attack Vivio, just to hold her off until she could rescue her. She just shielded, blocked and bound Vivio while searching for Quattro.

Regardless, I believe your point was that Nanoha can increase her physical power. Yes, she can. She did so in S1 in her fight against Fate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Not particularly impressive as Subaru has done nothing particularly impressive. The only way to somehow gauge her power (along with Teana and Erio) is through rank and scaling her with Arf and Zafira, two characters with impressive feats - they're all AA ranks.
She's the first person in the manga to directly damage a divider. Subjectivity aside of it's impressiveness, being the first to do so is a unique feat.

And I do agree with Vez that we should take the speculation to their appropriate threads. Let's stick to facts in the FAQ.
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Old 2012-06-22, 11:27   Link #4091
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Didn't Isis say that she trained the Spartan way?
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Old 2012-06-22, 11:31   Link #4092
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wonder if the "Spartan Way" include taking giant axes to the neck xD
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Old 2012-06-28, 06:30   Link #4093
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Can spells and things only shown in the 1st movie be considered canon and things considered to be possible? They did verify with Fate and Nanoha for authenticity.
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Old 2012-06-28, 09:28   Link #4094
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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Can spells and things only shown in the 1st movie be considered canon and things considered to be possible? They did verify with Fate and Nanoha for authenticity.
Only for the movie, not the series.

Not to say that it's impossible, but it's only canon for the movie.
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Old 2012-06-28, 10:43   Link #4095
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Can spells and things only shown in the 1st movie be considered canon and things considered to be possible? They did verify with Fate and Nanoha for authenticity.
There are two canons (actually, more by now, but let's not dwell on it): the TV series+mangas canon and the movies canon. The movies exist in the TV/manga universe as an autobiographical movie telling Nanoha and Fate's childhood but they are still partly fictional. Therefore, anything found in the movies that does not correspond to things in the respective TV series is not part of the main Nanoha canon.
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Old 2012-06-28, 10:45   Link #4096
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It's like fiction of the fiction xD?
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Old 2012-06-28, 11:00   Link #4097
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And people are still divided on whether or not the whole "it's a movie in the series canon" thing is true, because the evidence for it are in sound-stages typically not considered canon due to the heavy fourth-wall breaking they cause.
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Old 2012-06-28, 11:14   Link #4098
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I know what's canon and what's not canon, that wasn't the question. 1st is a movie within the Nanohaverse, i.e. using Nanoha's SLB and Fate's attacks to prove how strong they are falls under propaganda among other things. Maybe I should've worded it better, but I'm talking about if things like multiple defenser existing in canon is plausible.
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Old 2012-06-28, 11:17   Link #4099
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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
I know what's canon and what's not canon, that wasn't the question. 1st is a movie within the Nanohaverse, i.e. using Nanoha's SLB and Fate's attacks to prove how they are falls under propaganda. Maybe I should've worded it better, but I'm talking if things like multiple defenser existing in canon is plausible.
Oh that?

Yeah, that's actually canon.

The Defense Program had 4 layers of shields protecting it after all.
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Old 2012-07-08, 12:17   Link #4100
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Actually, in the manga, Nanoha did NOT, in fact, breach Yuuno's defenses...

She pierced a field that Yuuno was using to keep the Starlight Breaker Plus from being seen by normal people.

The only other time Yuuno's barrier was destroyed was because he was trying to contain Nanoha, Fate and Hayate's full destructive power.
There's another element that favors Yuuno, if he were only defending himself.

A firecracker that goes off on your open palm will only burn you, because the explosion is free. But if you clenched your fist around the explosion, it will blow your hand apart, since the force is all bottled up with no easy escape.

Yuuno would fare far better at defending himself even from an assault on all sides, as all of the pressure would be condensing his barrier from the outside rather than expanding it from the inside. An attack from just one direction would splash off his barrier, taking the path of least resistance and expending its energy harmlessly away from him.

Nanoha says that she and Raising Heart need to go all out to pierce Yuuno's defenses. Considering their level of firepower, and what they consider "all-out", that's damn tough for a guy who doesn't use a Device to multitask or boost his spellwork.

And "piercing his defenses" doesn't even mean they've beaten him yet. It doesn't even necessarily mean that they managed to *hurt* him.
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