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Old 2012-06-22, 03:36   Link #2041
speedyexpress48
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ARENA 01: Aisaka Taiga Gokō Ruri (Kuroneko) Saber Yui [Shana] Eucliwood Hellscythe Nagato Yuki
ARENA 02: [Tōsaka Rin] Victorique de Blois Shiina Minatsu Hisui Ichinose Kotomi Tsugumi Kōsaka Kirino
ARENA 03: Akiyama Mio Tsukamoto Yakumo Flower Matō Sakura Hanabishi Miki Saten Ruiko [Suzumiya Haruhi]
ARENA 04: Kohaku Teletha Testarossa Takahara Ayumi [Tainaka Ritsu] Tsukamoto Tenma Karakuri Chachamaru Uiharu Kazari
ARENA 05: Shimada Minami Shiomiya Shiori [Fear Kubrick] Suzutsuki Kanade Sanzen'in Nagi Holo Ikaros
ARENA 06: [Dalian] Yin
ARENA 07: Morishima Haruka [Hanato Kobato]
ARENA 08: [Hakamada Hinata] Tsukimiya Ayu
ARENA 09: [Ariel, Chris] Chitanda Eru, Ibara Mayaka
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Old 2012-06-22, 05:45   Link #2042
SirWence
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahasuerus View Post
Choosing between Shana and Taiga =

Love Saber to death, but moe is moe (or so they say)
And I couldnt agree more.. thats why I find it hard to believe you voted for Taiga or Shana over Saber in pure Moe - I admit theyd win hands down in a Tsun contest.

Support Saber! Though i hold little hope sigh
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Old 2012-06-22, 09:19   Link #2043
ion475
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Quote:
It'd be more interesting than seeing the same girls from last year cause they've had more exposure, I mean Iwasawa even who was 7-42 last year, is already at 5 wins showing just how much the bias is because she had exposure from last year imo. Not to mention the top 8 is almost exclusive ones from the previous year besides Sena.
Let see, her 5 wins are against Menma, Riko, Shiori, Sora, and Iris. Menma is 0-14 and is expected to be really weak. Riko came from a series where you have 1 strong girl (Aria) and the rest of the pack for the most part. Iris already lose to Riko and is a lot weaker than I thought. Sora is one of the girl that I've no clue how she can actually return. Then there's Shiori, who will get zero love unless you're a hardcore Kaminomi fan (and is already defeated by Riko also...)

Hack, Subaru is a newcomer and she beat Iwasawa already. And I don't see Iwasawa winning against Elsie (This one will be close knowing Elsie) and Haqua...

Bottom line is, Iwasawa hasn't really been beating anyone that she's not expected to beat anyway...

If anything, you can argue that the prelim is bias toward old girls and the fact that somehow girls like Sora can get into the show.

Okay, let say you remove all returning girls from Nova. That means 13 new slots. Then using prelim results and I'll fill in those 13 slots...
1 & 2 - Mami & Madoka (Madoka)
3 & 4 - Shirayuki & Reki (Aria)
5. Tomoka (RKB)
6. Ika-chan (Ika Musume)
7. Alice (Kamimemo)
8. Misaki (Kaichou wa Maid-sama)
9. Tsugumi
10. Shinobu (She would qualified for Nova if using the "Never been here" criteria)
11-13 = Mayuri? Kirika (C3)? Ayumi (Kaminomi)? Dalian? Haruka (Amagami)? Ohana (Hanasaku)?

The only difference I really see is even more Madoka girls and even more Aria girls. #5-#7 are actually way up top on my personal list (aka personal bias).

The thing is, yes, I would rather see Mami, Tomoka, Ika-chan, and Alice getting in (Instead of...cough, Iwasawa who has been hated ever since last year and Sora), but it's a fact that they didn't generate enough excitement to get out of prelim in the first place.
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Old 2012-06-22, 10:34   Link #2044
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
However there would be a nice cycle since Nova at present is only the previous two years.
It would be better if it was just the previous year, period. That would give a true newcomer a chance to be the star of her division, which in my mind is a lot more helpful than this odd idea of somehow gaining "worth" by getting to be the latest curbstomp victim of an Angel Beats! girl.

Even as somebody who has compared ISML to pro sports in the past, the comparisons do have limits.

Yes, in pro sports, it can be a good experience to go up against a top competitor so you know just how good you'll have to be in order to become the best. But that obviously doesn't apply to fictional characters that are being voted on. It's not like Akemi Homura is going to come away from a loss to Kanade, thinking "Well, that was an experience. I'll have to come better prepared with more moe missiles next time I face Kanade!"

In my experience, there's three things that can shift power levels (and hence "worth") in ISML:

1) Building up fame/notoriety through winning a lot.
2) Having a currently airing anime featuring that character in question.
3) Not having been featured in an anime in a looong time (hence gradually weakening over time).

Letting a new girl dominate a division could cause 1 for her - Getting curbsomped by Kanade won't. 2 and 3 will have their impacts regardless of division setup.


Quote:
Only the best from this Nova will move on to Stella...so it might be best to see everyone in action for more than one year to be sure they are worthy,
Degree of "worthiness" can change anyway, without a two-year ISML run. Some characters can fall out and come back. You could have somebody who's weak for two years, then a new anime makes them popular in the third year, regardless of how much they've been in ISML.


Quote:
Angel Beats this year has a massive advantage over everyone else in Nova,
And that's precisely the problem, and it's a big one, imo.


Quote:
If the entire Nova is only newbies each year, there will be years were we get basically chaff for half or more than half the entries.
We're getting plenty of chaff as it is. Some of the older girls are basically chaff (as ion475 just pointed out).

Personally, I'd rather see one of the hopelessly weak older girls (like Sora) "retired" (by possibly not making the veterans division), and give more new girls a shot.


Quote:
Those sorts of duels are fairly uninteresting and voters will ignore them if they are able to do so (and focus on Stella matches).
I strongly disagree. I'm much more interested in watching a first-time ever new girl vs. new girl match than I am in watching a highly predictable old girl vs. old girl (or weaker new girl) match.
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Old 2012-06-22, 12:02   Link #2045
ion475
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Quote:
It would be better if it was just the previous year, period. That would give a true newcomer a chance to be the star of her division, which in my mind is a lot more helpful than this odd idea of somehow gaining "worth" by getting to be the latest curbstomp victim of an Angel Beats! girl.
I do agree. But I can also argue that AB is the exception, not the norm. Take out AB and Oreimo and there goes 7 out of 13 returning girls in Nova. And the phenomenon of "Few series dominating the main season field" applied to both side (Hack, if the Fire Sisters is given just a month more in nomination, you'll have 5 Nisemonogatari girls. Then there's Clannad, around for forever and guess what? 4 girls get in this year with 3 of them that probably won't go away until god knows when. Haruhi trio is the same, of course...K-On...). At least with the current Nova format, you took out at least 10 girls right there. Problem? Just the way prelim work for the most part...

And no, Homuhomu will get curbstorm (sadly) no matter Kanade is there or not. Madoka girls never get love in ISML for whatever reason (I mean, popular anime, popular girls, but no, they're going nowhere. I tried to argue with "being in prime" but AB is way older and is still dominating)
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Old 2012-06-22, 12:26   Link #2046
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I still say two years is fine. Give they system time to fuction before you rewrite it.

Otherwise all you have is a mini 36 girl Saimoe each year and then most if not all those girls will be canned forever as it is going to take great effort to get into Stella.

At least with two years they get a potential second chance. Take Makoto as an example. Her first year was aweful. If we had had the Nova/Stella system then - don't know if she would have been able to make it into Stella the following year if it was newbie only in Nova. She did manage to get back in with the 64 girl system and surprised people by kicking ass once Railgun started airing. But under the one shot than Stella or nothing system, Makoto might have been left out, at least for a year.

Another example on the lower end would be Mie and Ushio from Clannad. Both ended up having their moe episodes right after ISML nominations and missed a year where they had potential. Both made it in later and didn't do well against the likes of Shana and Kyou, but against other newbies they could do better. Save some of those newbies were K-On.

So let us just wait to see how it works before we shoot it. Because remember that Kanade is a special case as she' been able to take out everyone in ISML. Most by a thousand or more.
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Old 2012-06-22, 12:27   Link #2047
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ion475 View Post
I do agree. But I can also argue that AB is the exception, not the norm.
AB is unusually popular, no doubt, but you may well see the same thing next year (albeit to a less severe degree) with the Hagani girls.

To go back to the "build up worth over two yeas" argument - Does anybody here really think that the Hagani girls wouldn't be cut out for the "veterans" division after just a year in ISML?

That's the other side of the argument, imo - The 2 year approach may arguably hold some girls back.

It may also prevent some interesting match-ups from ever happening in the first place (by the time the Hagani girls get into the veterans division, somebody like Shana, for example, might be riding off into the sunset).


Also, who's to say you won't get another AB! level phenomena within ISML at some point in the future? Heck, who knows, maybe Little Busters! will cause that to happen (Key characters tend to do well in ISML).

Imagine if Kanade was a first-year girl this year, but had to wait two whole years before getting to compete head-to-head (on a regular basis) with the vets.


On the whole, I really think it would be much better to have one division that's just for first-years, and another division for everybody else.


Editing in reply to Ithekro

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
I still say two years is fine.
And I still stay it's the wrong approach. One year would be better.


Quote:
Give the system time to function before you rewrite it.
The system isn't going to magically get better. It has certain inherent pros and cons vis a vis a one year system. I think that the one year system has a better set of inherent pros and cons.


Quote:
Otherwise all you have is a mini 36 girl Saimoe each year and then most if not all those girls will be canned forever as it is going to take great effort to get into Stella.
If they're never strong enough to be truly competitive in ISML (like this year's weaker returnees are), then who cares?

Mikoto would have got back in anyway. Nobody as popular as her would have been denied forever simply by the format structure.

And you're going to get the occasional goof up/scheduling issue leaving out strong girls (for a year) anyway, like we see this year with the Fire Sisters.
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Old 2012-06-22, 13:05   Link #2048
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So, now I have to watch and wait.

I was not able to successfully call in favors. I have a bad feeling about this.
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Old 2012-06-22, 13:20   Link #2049
Triple_R
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There's a few more points I wanted to add.

I don't think more casual voters even thinks about Divisions when they vote. They just vote for their favorite girls, period.

More hardcore ISML followers may think about Divisions, but they'll tend to vote on any match that has characters they know in it (unless it's too close to call for them, based on equal degrees of liking/'meh'ing for both girls). They're not going to conscientiously skip entire divisions.

And there's been plenty of first year girl vs. first year girl matches that had excellent combined vote totals. I don't see much evidence that voters care substantially less about first-year girls than they do older girls.

If you removed the weakest returning girls from both divisions, shifted over the 2nd year girls to Stella, and then filled the resulting empty slots with more new girls, I don't think it would have a significant negative impact on vote totals or fan interest. In fact, it might even grow more fan interest, as people might be more interested in getting to see who would emerge as the top girl in Nova.
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Old 2012-06-22, 14:05   Link #2050
broken270
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Spoiler for I agree with the following statements:

These are the reasons why I think we should stick with this years format for at least one more year before thinking in anything else would make it better. Like ion475 said, this year Nova division has girls like Angel Beats!, Ore no Imouto, Eucliwood, Charolette, and the like. By next year, they will be gone, and girls like Erio, Inori, and Aria can show off their true colors. I think the complaint here is that those from last year are dominating the newer girls and slowing them less potential. Considering where all of them statistically stand last year, isn't that pretty evident where they stand now compared to the newer girls. This is why I claim that if we wait one more year, we can see those girls as well as the other newcomers of next get the full potential they need while the Stella side would be ISML 2011 all over again.

This leads me to another thing that ion475 pointed out that I believe makes sense. Triple R, you stated that Nova should only be girls that appeared within one year. I fear what ion475 stated about having 4th/5th most popular girl of series coming in only to fill up space. I believe that one year just may be not enough time in the case of voting them in. You may state that two years is too much time, but I think two years is quite sufficient in that we can get to see girls like Haganai, Aria, and others to show their true worth against every other new girl here. I think the complaint is mostly going to happen for this year. Next year may have less qualms about this topic.

Upon the "Nova = girls who have not been to ISML before" idea, while yes, I agree that there may be people who would take high interest in it, myself included; however, I feel that that version of Nova would actually be more boring in terms of excitement. I think that that version would make an even finer line on where the top and bottom is (post 2011 vs everyone else). Sure, girls like Shirayuki (Aria), Ayase (Guilty Crown), and the Fire Sisters would be the exception of making noise at the top, but does one believe the same can be stated for girls like Madoka, Ika-Musume, and Ritsu? While I, too, would like to see such girls in ISML one of these days, by the end of the day, they are just not that popular as I would have liked them to be.
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Old 2012-06-22, 15:04   Link #2051
Ahasuerus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirWence View Post
And I couldnt agree more.. thats why I find it hard to believe you voted for Taiga or Shana over Saber in pure Moe - I admit theyd win hands down in a Tsun contest.

Support Saber! Though i hold little hope sigh
Welll... These are just my views: Saber was one of my first anime girls, in both series and figures, so she is very close to my heart. The same goes for Lucy/Nyuu, but their fleeting "moe-ments" pale in comparison with, say, Taiga's or Shana's. I hardly ever voted for Lucy, Revy, Ryougi Shiki or other faves. Since this is (supposed to be) a moe tourney, that's what I vote based on. I'm still trying to vote this way despite a girl's popularity or trending. But I am weakening a bit this year

Shana and Taiga are good examples of girls with personalities I don't like at first (too tsun, join Tomoyo and Kyou) but then as I get to know them and see them develop, they resemble girls who are real, flawed, vulnerable... and who might need ME, eliciting that feeling, the need to protect, which is central to moe, at least according to traditional concepts.

Saber is on a different level entirely; she's regal, dignified, beautiful... and alone. I love Saber, but as a moe girl, she doesn't measure up to my top picks *in moe*. Hey, I HATE choosing some over others; it's painful at times. But since this is a moe contest I feel obligated to vote based on moe, not who I like. Zetsubou is part and parcel LOL

If Saber had a few scenes such as Taiga's Christmas Night, or Shana's talks with Yuji's mom (for instance) it would have helped, but we're kept too far away from her, as was necessary for her character (the monarch set apart, which is one of the things that makes her so beautiful, insert the iconic image of her standing alone in that field, at the ready *swoon*). If Girl A has one moe-ment, while Girl B has ten, it's an easy choice to make for me, assuming we're basing votes on moe.

(Oddly, it's the Fate Stay/night VN that is raising Saber's moe-level for me as it's giving deeper glimpses into her character than either anime (or movie), and I've been voting more often for her as a result this year. Haven't reached the end yet though; almost there )

But if voting just based on popularity or "who's hot/not" then the choice isn't based on moe, which I thought the point of the tourney was. Honestly, I'm tired of having to "strictly" choose, but the fun of wrestling with these choices are what make it a challenge. I'm trying to loosen up my criteria this year by throwing bones to girls I don't usually vote for, but it still feels kinda false. I want to know who the most moe girl is, not who's popular!

But the nature of the beast and all that

Still, I do hope like hell that Saber can pull it off with the help of Fate/Zero's push-up in popularity; she deserves it, even if she's not the "moe-est of all"
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Old 2012-06-22, 15:13   Link #2052
Kirito
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Sorry for sounding noobish but can I ask this?

Is there a new voting poll already made or are all of you discussing the next list of participates? I'm just asking because I still don't understand how this voting and choosing stuff works...yet.

Yeah, inexperienced noob here.
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Old 2012-06-22, 15:18   Link #2053
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirito View Post
Sorry for sounding noobish but can I ask this?

Is there a new voting poll already made or are all of you discussing the next list of participates? I'm just asking because I still don't understand how this voting and choosing stuff works...yet.

Yeah, inexperienced noob here.
We're discussing stuff , though there was voting yesterday, but results won't be out for a few more hours still. And I have to agree with Ahasuerus on Saber, she just isn't as much of moe girl given her other qualities compared to others.
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Old 2012-06-22, 15:21   Link #2054
Kirito
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When does the voting take place? I always seem to miss it. What can I do to ensure that I won't miss it next time? Is the voting weekly, monthly, what? Someone please, throw me a bone here!
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Old 2012-06-22, 16:27   Link #2055
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http://www.internationalsaimoe.com/rules/

The calender there has all the match dates.
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Old 2012-06-22, 16:55   Link #2056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirito View Post
When does the voting take place? I always seem to miss it. What can I do to ensure that I won't miss it next time? Is the voting weekly, monthly, what? Someone please, throw me a bone here!
Generally ignoring breaks, it's tri-weekly(tues/thurs/sunday) for days voting happens open from 10(or was it 11?) am EST to 9:59 am EST the next day I believe.
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Old 2012-06-22, 16:57   Link #2057
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirito View Post
When does the voting take place? I always seem to miss it. What can I do to ensure that I won't miss it next time? Is the voting weekly, monthly, what? Someone please, throw me a bone here!
If you subscribe to this AS thread by email notification, the early voters will wake you up when you check your inbox. Go to the ISML site and vote, then at the confirmation screen you can copy-and-paste your votes over to here. There's also a discussion thread for each match in the ISML Forums if this one isn't enough for you

You'll find all the induction/qualifying/roster/voting/results info you could want at the ISML site linked above

Most of all, have fun
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Old 2012-06-22, 17:29   Link #2058
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broken270 View Post
These are the reasons why I think we should stick with this years format for at least one more year before thinking in anything else would make it better.
ISML should always be aiming to improve. In fact, KholdStare has done an admirable job in consistently aiming for that, and it would be a shame to see that healthy approach discontinue. ISML should always weigh the pros and cons of suggested changes against the pros and cons of the status quo.

To easily dismiss a suggested change by insisting that the status quo should be given another chance is an overly restrictive approach. Furthermore, it's an approach that may well make those of us providing suggestions/feedback feel like our ideas aren't being respected or even considered (I know that's how I currently feel on this issue, and it's obviously not a happy or encouraging place to be).

In my opinion, we should focus on the actual arguments in favor of each of the two positions (the change position vs. the status quo position), and determine from those arguments which position is likely the better one for ISML to go with. With that in mind, I will now reply to the rest of your post.


Spoiler for My reply to broken270, and a Nova Rookie of the Year proposal:
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Old 2012-06-22, 18:07   Link #2059
Ithekro
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Remember the current format is new to this year. It has not been fully tested to see what happens after a cycle. If Kanade had won the crown last year as expected, she would be in Stella by default and not interfering with Nova results. Not that a single top character can shift everyone that much.

This isn't even as change vs ststus quo argument. This is a "if you are going to change things, at least let the changes be tested before you decide to change them again" argument.

What is the point of having a system if you change it every year without seeing if the results work for all the changes? It was pretty flat out obvious that the high tier 2011 girls would dominate Nova. That was expected unless some other show came up to challenge them (Madoka was the suggested counter at the time). But since these girls had already gone against the likes of Shana they have a fanbase advantage the 2012 girls won't have. But come 2013, the 2012 girls will not be at as much a disadvantage, if they have worth. If they are not worthy they still will not make it past Nomination and the Preliminaries for those 36 slots. Have some faith in what has been crafted but not fully tested.

There will always be girls on the bottom of the list. But the list is only 36 long.
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Old 2012-06-22, 18:16   Link #2060
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirito View Post
When does the voting take place? I always seem to miss it. What can I do to ensure that I won't miss it next time? Is the voting weekly, monthly, what? Someone please, throw me a bone here!
You can also subscribe to this RSS feed, which will announce when voting starts/stops and results come out.

http://www.internationalsaimoe.com/voting/rss/
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