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Old 2012-06-22, 12:02   Link #8801
Ryus
The One Eyed King
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DmonHiro View Post
Well yeah, she controlled him perfectly. She just didn't use magic to brainwash him. She used magic to make him think her voice was Zeref's voice, but she wasn't actually IN control. She manipulated him into doing what she wanted, but Jellal was, technically, doing it of his own free will.


I said that Ultear's version was far weaker than what I'm suspecting Zeref is doing... didn't you read what I wrote? Or are you just arguing for it's own sake? If you want a debate I'm game.

Look "control" and "possession" are words with many degrees to them. I then said the two possessions (Ultear on Jellal and Zeref on Shelia (my suspicion)) are in different leagues from one another. Yet your yelling at me for something I already admitted.

Next off a philosophical question for you... "Define possession on a person's free will"

I say: Possession occurs when a person has given up their free will knowingly or unknowingly to an 3rd party, even if they believe they never did and all their choices where their own. After all our thoughts are just chemical reactions, how easy is it would it be in a series like Fairy Tail for a magic to play with them? To induce a high so strong one fully believes that what they are doing is right or a love so strong that it's worth killing over... etc...

It matter's not if Jellal was enjoying the ride, and thought that's what he wanted to do. What matters is his reaction to continue it after the possession ends and they look back on what they've done. At least that's how I view it.
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Old 2012-06-22, 12:12   Link #8802
DmonHiro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryus View Post
I say: Possession occurs when a person has given up their free will knowingly or unknowingly to an 3rd party, even if they believe they never did and all their choices where their own. After all our thoughts are just chemical reactions, how easy is it would it be in a series like Fairy Tail for a magic to play with them? To induce a high so strong one fully believes that what they are doing is right or a love so strong that it's worth killing over... etc...
Then you say wrong. Forcefully controlling someone's actions through magic, let's say, and controlling the victim's body and thoughts, that's "possession". The victim has no choice but do do what the man or entity that possessed him wants. Zolty possessed Capricorn. He took over his body, and made him do things against his will.

Manipulating someone into doing something that they wouldn't have done otherwise is not the same as possessing someone. Ultear manipulated him, she tricked him, she made him do her bidding without him ever knowing, but she did not possess him. She couldn't have, for example, made him strip naked during a council meeting and announce his plans to take over the world while moonwalking. Using magic to "induce a high so strong one fully believes that what they are doing is right or a love so strong that it's worth killing over" is still not possession. At most, it's brainwashing, making him believe what he is doing it right (and she did so that), but not possession. You need to learn what the notion means.
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Old 2012-06-22, 12:38   Link #8803
Ryus
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Well, I'm glad you're so certain... you'd fail any philosophy course, but whatever.

You see, free will would also have to be debated in that question. But clearly you know what it is and could never be manipulated...

Brainwashing is a form of possession. It goes by many many names with varying degrees including but not limited to: coercive persuasion, indoctrination, instill, mind abuse, mind control, menticide, possession, thought control, and thought reform.

You have an argument, which is fine... it's a legit view point to have. However my issue is your narrow mindedness to other legit view points on the topic. This line of conversation involves defining free will and that's something no one has ever been able to define through out all of history, it's like defining the soul... so you being the first well, sorry but my bullshit meter is going off. Don't get me wrong you have a view point on the matter that is argued well enough I suppose but it's not the only "correct" answer either.
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Old 2012-06-22, 12:50   Link #8804
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My prediction is the same way Natsu defeated Zancrow:

-Natsu depletes his own magical energy(which Wendy seems to have done)
-Allows Natsu to eat the Fire God magic. (Wendy will eat Shelia's Wind God magic)
-Natsu combines Fire Dragon & Fire God magic = Fire Dragon God Slayer technique.
(Wendy combines to form Wind Dragon God Slayer technique)
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Old 2012-06-22, 12:50   Link #8805
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I'm not arguing against your point of view. I'm arguing against your use of the word "possession", and I mean just the word itself. To possess someone, you must have absolute control over it, and Ultear did not have absoute control of Jellal.

Nvis, I don't think that can happen. The only reason that worked was because Natsu is bat-shit insane and reckless. He emptied his magic while inside an attacking magic. That's border-line insanity, according to Makarov. I don't think Wendy would do that, unless her life, or her friends life depended on it.
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Old 2012-06-22, 12:56   Link #8806
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Ryus that's a brilliant idea for the next few chapters i must say im impressed. Either way the next few chapters are going to be interesting thats all there is to say Fairy Tail outshined Naruto and bleach both BIG TIME
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Old 2012-06-22, 13:09   Link #8807
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Natsu is known for lack the brain cells necessary to activate any self-preservation instinct...even Makarov was surprised not only that Natsu did it but also that it actually worked. Wendy pulling something like Natsu did is a bit out of character for her, plus she's not the sturdy, battle type that would be able to handle the side effects. If it were Laxus or Gajeel then yea, I would be surprised if they did it but Wendy...
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Old 2012-06-22, 13:12   Link #8808
Ryus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DmonHiro View Post
I'm not arguing against your point of view. I'm arguing against your use of the word "possession", and I mean just the word itself. To possess someone, you must have absolute control over it, and Ultear did not have absoute control of Jellal.
What is so hard to get about my usage of the usage of possession? The series already has a precedent for it, Memory Control Magic and Charm Magic.

Both manipulate people to do the previously impossible as long as they don't realize about the manipulation. All I'm saying is that Ultear may have done something like this to Jellal in which case he really wasn't responsible, and Shelia could be being manipulated even more thoroughly.

At the very least Jellal's path was guided by a 3rd party with it's own agenda which is anything but free will from most points of view, even if he choose his own actions along that chosen path his choices where 'limited' to say the least along his guided path. It's like blaming an assassin robot for a murder... sure it choose what to do along the programming but at the end of the day it would carry out it's mission or die trying due to the programming. It's the programmers fault, the assassin robot was just the tool not the wielder, in this example.
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Old 2012-06-22, 14:37   Link #8809
Tempest35
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I think that possession spell was something similar to a Geass. It didn't really affect Jellal in any other way other than to make Zeref the pinnacle of what he sought instead of freedom. It could be said that it associated 'Freedom' = 'Free Zeref'. Mind you, he was a kid and was mentally exhausted due to the torture so of course the spell worked on him like a charm. Kinda scary that it was done by another kid at the time... 0.o.

For what it seemed, it was as if the spell was like a computer virus. It created a 'backdoor' into Jellal's consciousness, turning Ultear's voice into Zeref's voice and Jellal did whatever 'Zeref' told him to do. She basically made Jellal into a 'zombie terminal' and executed her '.exe' plans thru him, even allowing him to 'order' her around on her own plans to keep the lie up. It was a very elaborate manipulation but that's all I can call it - manipulation and not straight possession, in the purest sense of the word. One does not have to possess something to manipulate it.
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Old 2012-06-22, 16:25   Link #8810
kk2extreme
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Now all we need is a metal god slayer
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Old 2012-06-22, 16:54   Link #8811
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I'm thinking that most god slayers are actually somehow connected to Zeref (Zancrow being the exception) or at the very least the magic having originated from his. Although based on Orga's reaction I'm guessing he has god-slayer abilities too, so that really pokes a hole in the first theory.
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Old 2012-06-22, 17:21   Link #8812
Ryus
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Ok first off I've seen tons of "possession" movie/books/comics/manga where the "possession" wasnt total, it's totality always depends on the plot going with it so the word is a bit lose in its meaning, now moving away from that mind field.

Second I meant possession in more of the abstract, since it was a spell that controlled/directed him even when he couldn't hear Ultears voice... hence a possession since he carried it around with him and wasnt just listening to orders of someone with some voice powers who's victim would start to think on their own when not near them. In short he was carrying around this "manipulation" magic with him that put blinders on his thoughts for anything other than his orders. Now that you know why I used that word we can get away from the word but instead the concept I meant and back to the idea I put forth with it... we're starting to split hairs here. In short I said it due to the nature of the magic not being 'limited' even though Jellal wasnt made into a drooling idiot/robot due to it but others dont see it that way, whatever lets move on you now know what was meant.

Third great post Tempest35
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Old 2012-06-22, 17:25   Link #8813
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Fair enough, I guess that crazy red eye he had in the tower of paradise could have been Ultear's "hack" into his brain. Something else is bothering me though: how old was Ultear then?
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Old 2012-06-22, 17:34   Link #8814
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When Ultear returned home she as a little kid she saw Ul with Gray and Lyon, so I'd say about there age (well Lyon's age only now )
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Old 2012-06-22, 18:19   Link #8815
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Interesting. Not much to say other than what people have already said. But I will toss my hat in the ring and say that Wendy will remember what Natsu did, and duplicate it. It may seem a bit out of character for her normally, but Mashima is setting up the possibility here. She has said she doesn't like fighting, but doesn't want to let Elfman and the guild down. I think she'll at least attempt it, even if she doesn't succeed.

And there is something off about Chelia, that I bit Lamia Scale doesn't even know. I think Ryus is right that something is going on here (you don't just find Lost magic of a God Slayer level anywhere), so we'll wait and see.

Anyway, she should be able to eat more air and get charged up again. And Wendy should have at least one more attack; didn't she get two new ones?

Lastly, I can't see Mashima allowing Wendy to lose here. She needs to win a good fight, since she really hasn't had anything on her own. A loss here would be devastating for her, and continue to put her into the "helpless little girl" category. She needs to show why she's a dragon slayer.

Although, Wendy winning by doing the same thing Natsu did, would be a bit too repetitive, which is why I think like Ryus, in that something more will happen here. But I at least expect Wendy to attempt it.
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Old 2012-06-22, 18:48   Link #8816
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That was a cool fight. Sky Drill is cool. Wonder why Wendy is in danger.
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Old 2012-06-22, 18:49   Link #8817
Randrak42
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Windy can get her win later on when she finally masters the second secret technique.
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Old 2012-06-22, 19:45   Link #8818
Bonta Kun
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This fight seems almost too unfair for Wendy, not only is she getting beat and Chelia brushing off her attacks like nothing, Wendy can't even compare breast sizes!

But don't worry Wendy, I think your alot cuter!
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Old 2012-06-22, 20:03   Link #8819
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it'd be funny if Jellal interfered the loli-fight, thinking Chelia is under Zeref influence, gets his cover blown away... then found out Zeref has nothing to do with Chelia and that Zeref is somewhere else instead.
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Old 2012-06-22, 20:48   Link #8820
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I don't think Chelia is under any Zeref influence. I think she herself doesn't understand the roots of the legend of her own power.
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