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Old 2012-06-22, 23:35   Link #2081
RegalStar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Unpredictability is inherently exciting. Does anybody here honestly think differently?
I do. (And I'm not a fantasy player any more since I'm marking it now.) Unpredictability between top level characters are fine, but I don't particularly care about whether the current rank #25 can actually beat current rank #27 in a straight up match because they're not going to affect the necklaces or the tiara, other than for the sake of SDO calculation. In fact, the difference of strength between just about everyone below around Erio and above Yuno (who will almost surely go 0-35) are pretty volatile, and matches between close ranked characters there could go any way, yet not a lot of people seem particularly excited about them.
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Old 2012-06-22, 23:40   Link #2082
Rajura
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I just wanna see Holo in another exhibition or an actual necklace match... come on guys help me help her.

Please!

I'm on call, and then this... A sucky day indeed. :[

Oh how the despair is setting-in.
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Old 2012-06-23, 00:24   Link #2083
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Congratz to Kuroneko , though I am happy to see Shana get such a high vote% for this. Other results were ok besides Holo and Chitanda/Ibara(they both moe ) losing.
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Old 2012-06-23, 00:42   Link #2084
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Hoping for a Yuki win was a stretch, but Kuroneko is fine too.
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Old 2012-06-23, 01:04   Link #2085
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I can agree with the concept of a newbie being put into Nova if they have not faced the regular round robin before. Even if they are from an existing series that is in Stella. I was surprised a little to see Hecete is Stella with Shana after all these years of Shana being alone. There are only two newbies in Stella this year.
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Old 2012-06-23, 03:11   Link #2086
KholdStare
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
I can agree with the concept of a newbie being put into Nova if they have not faced the regular round robin before. Even if they are from an existing series that is in Stella. I was surprised a little to see Hecete is Stella with Shana after all these years of Shana being alone. There are only two newbies in Stella this year.
Interesting point about Shinobu and Hecate. We are looking into this for next year.
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Old 2012-06-23, 04:26   Link #2087
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Damn, glad my vote helped Kuroneko. Sweet pic too. Good day. Not surprised either that a number of KugiRie fans dropped Taiga the moment Shana got a whiff of victory.

So surprisingly (or not) 3 of the 4 jeweleries have gone to Nova characters. Too bad Holo didn't get the Amethyst Brooch though.
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Old 2012-06-23, 07:13   Link #2088
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RegalStar View Post
I do. (And I'm not a fantasy player any more since I'm marking it now.) Unpredictability between top level characters are fine,
So do you like unpredictability between the top level characters more than predictability between the top level characters? If so, then you probably do find unpredictability inherently exciting... as long as it's over a match that matters to you (obviously you're not going to care about matches that don't matter to you, period).

The newbie approach (as outlined by Sackett) would create more unpredictability amongst the top level characters too.

The reason for this is that newbies don't have well-established strength levels yet, whereas girls in their 2nd year in ISML tend to have this (the only thing that usually shifts this is a currently airing anime featuring one of the top girls - so Eucliwood is now stronger and can make things more exciting, but the other top girls in Nova all have fairly static strength levels).

So when two of Aria, Erio, Inori, and the Haganai girls go head-to-head, there's some real doubt as to who's going to win the match. But Kanade vs. Charlotte, or Kuroneko vs. Yuri or Yui, is very predictable. So by having those 2nd year girls in Nova, you make the top level more predictable as well.

From the highest tier to the lowest tier, Nova would be more unpredictable if it was only ISML newbies in it. And that would be of great benefit to Nova, imo.


When you consider all the benefits that come with the Nova = Newbie approach (many of which Sackett lined out very compellingly, imo), and when you consider all the inherent structural weaknesses of the current approach (as Sackett and I have both pointed out), it honestly seems very clear to me which approach would be the better one for ISML to go with.

Well, unless people here really want the next Kanade to languish pointlessly in Nova for two whole years, likely never getting to compete head-to-head with strong and popular vets while she's at her peak...
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Old 2012-06-23, 10:21   Link #2089
broken270
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Very nice poster for both Ruri and Ikaros.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
So basically, we all know Kuroneko isn't the strongest out there, but the Shana/Taiga split made it happen. The question is, will Shana and Taiga yield the last 3 necklaces to Mikoto, Eucliwood, and Yuki?
While certainly possible, at one point, there will come a time when Taiga and Shana will battle it out together. meaning one of them will be by themselves by the time the necklace round comes. Then there is SDO to care about...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rajura View Post
I just wanna see Holo in another exhibition or an actual necklace match... come on guys help me help her.
Sadly, the only other time she is going to be in an exhibition match is in the tag team division with Craft and win the match before becoming one of the seven girls involved in the longer exhibition match.
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Old 2012-06-23, 10:23   Link #2090
RegalStar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
So do you like unpredictability between the top level characters more than predictability between the top level characters?
The only unpredictability I find to be truly exciting are between characters who are top level across everyone, nova or stella or whatever. Putting the middle pile of Nova this year on top by eliminating everyone above them is artificial.
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Old 2012-06-23, 10:45   Link #2091
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RegalStar View Post
The only unpredictability I find to be truly exciting are between characters who are top level across everyone, nova or stella or whatever. Putting the middle pile of Nova this year on top by eliminating everyone above them is artificial.
How would anybody know if it's artificial or not? We only know it this year because those 2nd Year Girls are there in Nova. Without them being there, we wouldn't know for sure how strong newbies are against ISML veterans (well, we'd know a little bit because of a couple ISML 2011 Exhibition matches, IIRC, but that would tell us only very little).

This would make the first few Necklace matches that much more exciting, imo, because we'd get to see our first real tests of new girl strength against veteran strength. But it would be a seven-way test, which can give skewed results, so people would have fun interpreting the results of those first few Necklace matches, and wondering what it might mean about the strengths of the new girls in it. I think it would be a fantastic year-long narrative.

Instead, what we have this year (so far) are Necklace matches that could have just as well happened last year. They're not bad matches, per se, but there's nothing particularly new or fresh about them.


And besides, the "more unpredictability" argument is just one argument out of many that Sackett and I have put forward in favor of a "Nova = Newbie and Stella = Veteran" format.


Edit: One more thing I want to quickly add before people raise a point that I can already see coming.

"If you had newbies vs. veterans in ISML necklace matches, the newbies would simply get killed!"

Two points in response to that:

1. This isn't necessarily true. It may well be true this year, but it might not be true next year. Again, a new Kanade or at least a new Kuroneko could arise.

2. Some of the 2nd-year Nova girls that made it into Necklace matches are getting curbstomped anyway. Yuri and Kirino both managed fewer than 1000 votes for the 2012 Aquamarine Necklace match, and Yui managed fewer than 800 votes for the 2012 Amethyst Necklace match. A total newbie could hardly do much worse...
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2012-06-23 at 11:10.
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Old 2012-06-23, 15:04   Link #2092
Eisdrache
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Regalstar vs. Triple R, two of the biggest statistics users going at each other? Awesome. Meanwhile I can put my attention on more important aspects.
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Old 2012-06-23, 15:14   Link #2093
Sackett
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Well, no decision has to be made until later. We don't have to make a decision today, but it's a good idea to get out all the ideas and thoughts, so that we can see what happens as we go on.
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Old 2012-06-23, 15:27   Link #2094
Rajura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broken270 View Post
Sadly, the only other time she is going to be in an exhibition match is in the tag team division with Craft and win the match before becoming one of the seven girls involved in the longer exhibition match.
*Sigh* Okay, then we'll have to wait and see huh?

Well, the only thing that would help at this point then is a miracle called Season III... which I know isn't happening.

Sabotage!
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Old 2012-06-23, 15:43   Link #2095
FlareKnight
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Congrats to Kuroneko. Just got enough votes to take the necklace and certainly deserved the honor. A tight competition for the top like that really does make it feel worthwhile to vote .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rajura View Post
I just wanna see Holo in another exhibition or an actual necklace match... come on guys help me help her.

Please!

I'm on call, and then this... A sucky day indeed. :[

Oh how the despair is setting-in.
I'll give her vote support anytime. Don't think there's been a matchup where I didn't give her the nod. May not have helped much, but got to do what one can .

And season 3 will happen....probably....don't destroy my dreams!
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Old 2012-06-23, 16:59   Link #2096
Team Rocket Elite
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For those interested, here are my character rankings from before Amethsyt 1 and after Amethyst 7:

Before Amethyst 1:
Spoiler for Character Ranking before Amethyst 1:

After Amethyst 7:
Spoiler for Character Ranking after Amethyst 7:
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Old 2012-06-23, 18:51   Link #2097
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisdrache View Post
Regalstar vs. Triple R, two of the biggest statistics users going at each other? Awesome. Meanwhile I can put my attention on more important aspects.
Honestly, I think that the two-year system vs. newbie/veteran system debate is very important. I don't see what aspect could be more important than that. To save space, I'm going to try to convey why this is in the spoiler space below.


Spoiler for Why it's important.:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
Well, no decision has to be made until later. We don't have to make a decision today, but it's a good idea to get out all the ideas and thoughts, so that we can see what happens as we go on.
Agreed.

If nobody else wants to discuss this further right now, then I'll drop it after this post. But I really want to convey my misgivings with the current system, because I frankly see huge flaws in it.
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Old 2012-06-23, 19:36   Link #2098
KholdStare
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@Triple_R: Remember that we were FULLY aware that Kanade would never go 1v1 with Mikoto/Shana/etc... during regular season...and that was a POSITIVE. It adds to the uncertainty of ISML...during the post-season where we would want to them battle it out for the very first time.

Now, someone will argue that it can be more "exciting" if a contestant beat another during regular season and then a reversal happens in post-season. I agree this is also a possibility for excitement. I recall we had more people going with "unpredictability during post-season", but more importantly, overall with both sides I cannot claim that "Kanade would never go 1v1 with Mikoto" is a negative, ever.

That's all I'll say on the subject since it was something that happened last year. We're not trying to interfere in this great discussion between the ISML community members, so please go on right ahead!
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Old 2012-06-23, 20:35   Link #2099
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
@Triple_R: Remember that we were FULLY aware that Kanade would never go 1v1 with Mikoto/Shana/etc... during regular season...and that was a POSITIVE. It adds to the uncertainty of ISML...during the post-season where we would want to them battle it out for the very first time.

Now, someone will argue that it can be more "exciting" if a contestant beat another during regular season and then a reversal happens in post-season. I agree this is also a possibility for excitement. I recall we had more people going with "unpredictability during post-season", but more importantly, overall with both sides I cannot claim that "Kanade would never go 1v1 with Mikoto" is a negative, ever.
Perhaps I haven't conveyed my point well-enough. Let me give it another shot.

If the current system was in effect last year, Kanade and Mikoto would never have faced each other in the regular season... correct?

Now, as it so happened, Kanade was sniped by Shana in last year's Tiara Semifinal, preventing a Tiara Finals match-up between her and Mikoto. Something like that could have conceivably happened if the current system was in effect last year... correct?

So, if you had the current system in effect last year, you might not have seen Kanade go head-to-head with Mikoto at all last year.

Now, under the same system, you would not have had Kanade facing Mikoto at all during the regular season this year.

So, the Tiara Rounds come around again, and let's say that this time Mikoto gets sniped before she can face Kanade (or maybe Kanade gets sniped again, it would have the same effect).

You would now have two full years of no Kanade vs. Mikoto matches... anywhere, regular season or post-season. Do you see what I'm saying?

Yes, you would need an highly unfortunate sequence of events for something like this to happen, but it's possible. The format should not allow for even the possibility of something like this. It just shouldn't, imo.


But putting all of this aside, keeping the next Kanade or Kuroneko in Nova for two years is just horrible in and of itself, imo. It's even worse than what we have right now with Kanade in Nova, because last year's format meant we've already seen Kanade take on each the strongest vets at least once. The next Kanade won't have that benefit.
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Old 2012-06-23, 21:16   Link #2100
exec
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ok, i'm going to butt in and say, that i'm totally against the "Nova = first year in ISML" thing.

My point is that if the point of Nova is to bring new faces to the ISML then it's enough to make it "one year old anime = Nova". if you take animes from Spring last year to winter current year, then there is no way an anime charas that were in ISML could get in, because Nomination period ends in January. And any oldies that haven't been in ISML before should just go into Stella. If chara is weak it'll be weak no mater where it participates.

More importantly ISML is about Moe, it's about charas getting support from there fans and winning matches for a whole year , i mean one thing is to get a chara to win and totally different thing is to support the chara for a whole year. Not every chara has that many dedicated fans and supporters. There are bound to be charas that lose support over time and charas that will gain support, and we don't have control over that process. That is why I don't think there is a point in making it easier for oldies to get in ISML. If they lose they lose, nothing more nothing less. ISML is about Moe winning and not Moe losing, we each have our own Moe perception that's why ISML doesn't guarantee a chara that you think is more Moe to win, it's a chara that everybody think is Moe that wins. Basically rule of the majority. And there is no point in making it so some underdog chara would face noob charas, so that maybe it would do better than with others from the same league. Is this a tournament or is this a show? Are we here to make it clear which chara is the most moe or are we here to get some random charas to fight each other for the sake of the show?
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