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Old 2012-03-09, 08:57   Link #221
WarpObscura
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The current Lyrical Twilight update has me thinking:

An AU where Chrono and Lindy never forgave the Wolkenritter. Worked with them to defeat the corrupted Defence Programme but no further. Hayate they might accept because they know it wasn't her fault, but the knights are a different matter entirely. Come StrikerS they're on Team Regius, or rather Regius is on theirs because it's personal for them unlike him. How are things different?

EDIT: Here's the quote if you need to find it:


Quote:
“I first thought it was just a coincidence. A girl in red with a hammer-shaped Device. But after your ally showed up, it stopped being so. I know you. I know what you are, and what you serve, Wolkenritter.” He said that name almost like it was a curse.

“So you…know what we are. Congrats, whoever you are.”

“My name is Chrono Harlaown. You should remember that name. Does it sound familiar?”

Vita hissed, glaring at the kid.

“No. Should it?”

That elicited a reaction. Vita coughed as the staff drove into her stomach as Chrono growled under his breath.

“You’re…hurting me. Stop it.” Vita let a little bit of a whine enter her voice.

“You can stop playing human.” Chrono’s voice was cold and pitiless. “You’re a lot more durable than you look. If you don’t surrender right now, then I’ll just keep hitting you until you do surrender. I’ll pump you so full of blades that you’ll look like a knife rack, if I have to.”
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Last edited by WarpObscura; 2012-03-10 at 06:01.
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Old 2012-03-10, 03:20   Link #222
Meltyred
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Key Board View Post
if she was infertile how did she have Alicia?

and we know Alicia wasn't grown in a tube, because Precia didn't resort to project Fate until later
Come to think of it who was the father anyway?
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Old 2012-03-10, 03:50   Link #223
Rising Dragon
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I think all we know about the father was from the novel, and that was only that Precia divorced him.
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Old 2012-03-10, 04:35   Link #224
Tiresias
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Originally Posted by Meltyred View Post
Come to think of it who was the father anyway?
Spoiler for Revelation:


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Old 2012-03-10, 04:56   Link #225
Rising Dragon
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That'd explain why she put him through a wall... :k
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Old 2012-06-22, 11:23   Link #226
Akiyoshi
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From the Q & A thread following recommendation by Keroko, i knew you said we should this to the FAQ thread by it seems we still agreeing on this so i took this to the Theories & Speculations thread instead xDU

Quote:
Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Nanoha blocked a punch from Vivio and was clashing with her, so no. She was, however, using the Blaster System.
I agree with Keroko in that Nanoha is able to enhace her physical power with magic but by herself she's probably just as strong as a well-trained human woman her age and size. I'm pretty sure speed and kinetic force can be greatly enhaced with the use of barriers and flying spells, like her Flash Impact combo she used on Fate on Season 1.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Meaningless speculation, how about some actual supporting evidence? What you doubt isn't significant to anyone. We saw them both block the attacks and they weren't shown to do anything specific - Occam's razor dictates they just blocked them until anything brings that into doubt and I doubt anything will. It's not like they could match the firepower all of a sudden, but being capable of blocking it sits well with how the series work (Zafira blocked an AAA rank spell, the same as Hiryū Issen - they're both at least as strong as the Divine Buster was)
I have doubts because we didn't saw anything, the explosion ocurred and then they appeared after the explosion so we didn't get to know how they blocked the attacks. Isis doesn't have any feats supporting she could block an attack that big just like that ...Agito is an even bigger question mark as she shouldn't suppossed to be able to block Tohma's attackas at all, so it's easy to assume she find a way to get around that that doesn't involve magical shields as we know those are useless agains EC Drivers. With Zafira, if you're talking about him blocking Chrono's Stiger Blade-Execution Shift. Yeah you robably right, except for the fact Zafira casted a special shield for that and unlike Hiryuu Issen and Divine buster, that was an attack swith ana acumulative effect on a wide spread area so it's in a sense a bit easier to protect from it than form attacks that focus their damage in one spot like the afformentioned two.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Subaru? LOL. Subaru has no feats to suggest that, so that's pretty much a load of crap. As far as we know at the moment, Nanoha and Fate are far stronger than her and she'll never be close to them.
They're only stronger than Subaru in terms of magical power, Subaru is a cyborg and unlike Nanoha or Fate she have many feats of great physical strenght. For starters, she's able to lift and throw people many feet in the air without any magic whatsoever, can punch trough concrete, steel, and whatever alloy the Gadget drones are made of, her special Cyborg Power involves making her fists to emit wild supersonic vibrations something that requires an incredibly tough body to pull off an in such a state she can even punch trough the Saint Craddle's walls (something Nanoha only achieved with a Blaster-3 Divine Buster), and don't forget what Keroko says about her new ability of braking weapons with her left hand. There's no doubt Nanoha and Fate are a lot more powerfull than Subaru in the overall scenario but physically Subaru is far stronger than them and most members of Section Six, being probably just as strong or even stronger than Vita and Signum themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Eh, so? Quinn also cut up Erio's Strike Cannon with an unreacted Divider, Cypha downright curb stomped her. Signum, Nanoha, Fate, or even Vita could do the same.
Quinn used an especial attack along with her divider sword, and attack Cypha explained in detail during their fight. Deville on the other hand damaged Erio's unit with brute streght alone. It's doubtful if Vita and Signum could "curbstomp Quinn" tough, as she's an EC Driver and her reacted divider is probably even more powerfull. Cypha can get away with that because she have more experience with EC powers as also having the power of being tough as hell and thus able to fend off Quinn's attack that will be unblockable for non EC Driver opponents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Not particularly impressive as Subaru has done nothing particularly impressive. The only way to somehow gauge her power (along with Teana and Erio) is through rank and scaling her with Arf and Zafira, two characters with impressive feats - they're all AA ranks.
Subaru's low rank came more likely from her limited fightstyle as she have mostly melee-range attacks and is unable to fly which can limit her effectiveness under certain conditions. For everything else, see the above explanation about her feats xD.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Not particularly impressive, considering Nanoha can physically contend with Thoma and wasn't trying to hurt him. Curren is likely stronger than everyone, though. She owned Vita, but Vita hasn't exactly proven she can take a S-Rank attack head on or that such a feat can be applied to her.
Correction, Fortress mode can physically contend with Tohma and Nanoah did go all out in the battle yet Tohma shruged of the damage like nothing due to his very powerfull healing factor. Once Tohma destroyed the Strike Cannon and the Fortress units(in one raid to boot) Nanoha was left totally defenseless and at his mercy being in the need to be rescued by Subaru before Tohma can deal the killing blow.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Not at all. That's a massive leap in logic and something you can't prove.
Why is that a massive leap in logic? Isis surviving a broken neck from a man who can break steel with brute strenght alone is very clear feat of durability, Isis even bleed from the attack proving that Deville wasn't lying when he said he broke her neck. That's definetely something almost everyone else on Section Six wouldn't be able to rise from without assitance and some time in the hospital. It's also a hint about Isis misterious nature.

I agree with Curren being the strongest of them all, tough xD!
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Old 2012-06-22, 11:52   Link #227
bhl88
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Wonder what happened to Teana's ribbons? Did she give them to Subaru or Rune?
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Old 2012-06-22, 12:10   Link #228
Justin_Brett
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Who's the author of that, Obscura? I think they forgot Vita's personality there for a second.
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Old 2012-06-22, 12:42   Link #229
VezSketch
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Akiyoshi, have I talked to you on another forum?

Sorry about the tl;dr, guys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
I agree with Keroko in that Nanoha is able to enhace her physical power with magic but by herself she's probably just as strong as a well-trained human woman her age and size. I'm pretty sure speed and kinetic force can be greatly enhaced with the use of barriers and flying spells, like her Flash Impact combo she used on Fate on Season 1.
Nanoha could block Subaru and Teana's attacks without her device bare-handley under a limiter. Those two are stronger now, but Nanoha's physical strength (or high-tier or mid-tier mages in general) shouldn't be underestimated. The fact she can contend with Signum and Thoma (Thoma was much stronger while fighting Nanoha than he is currently) in physical combat puts her far above Subaru in physical strength.

Quote:
I have doubts because we didn't saw anything, the explosion ocurred and then they appeared after the explosion so we didn't get to know how they blocked the attacks. Isis doesn't have any feats supporting she could block an attack that big just like that ...Agito is an even bigger question mark as she shouldn't suppossed to be able to block Tohma's attackas at all, so it's easy to assume she find a way to get around that that doesn't involve magical shields as we know those are useless agains EC Drivers. With Zafira, if you're talking about him blocking Chrono's Stiger Blade-Execution Shift. Yeah you robably right, except for the fact Zafira casted a special shield for that and unlike Hiryuu Issen and Divine buster, that was an attack swith ana acumulative effect on a wide spread area so it's in a sense a bit easier to protect from it than form attacks that focus their damage in one spot like the afformentioned two.
The fact we didn't see them do anything additional to block those attacks isn't supporting evidence towards them in fact doing so. Blocking the attacks is a feat. Zafira's barrier was just a barrier, we have nothing indicating it was "special." You have no basis to claim otherwise. While Chrono's attack wasn't focused, it still wasn't enough power to destroy his barrier and that's all that matters in this case.

Quote:
They're only stronger than Subaru in terms of magical power, Subaru is a cyborg and unlike Nanoha or Fate she have many feats of great physical strenght.
Like I said before, Nanoha is much stronger than Subaru. Fate is, too. Jet Zanber is comparable to Vita's Gigantform as shown in A's and is now used as a basic melee attack. Her riot forms of her Zanber were able to OHK Tre and Sette (these were S-Ranks ...) while under an AMF and is now something she's shown using in base (upgraded and stronger forms). Zest was able to break Graf Eisen in a compact gigantform (it should carry the same durability, but not power) and knocked Vita out of unison, knocking out Rein II. Her device was not damaged while hitting Reinforce's barrier in A's (this is something that's been estimated to be hundreds of meters and over millions of tons due to how big Reinforce's body was, Vita swung it to reach the Defense System in a fraction of a second. Being able to do that makes her ordinary physical attacks with a more compact Graf Eisen strong as hell - Vita in A's is definitely not as strong as Fate, Signum, Nanoha, and other high tier characters are currently. And Subaru is as strong as Vita never. That's the single most impressive direct physical feat we can scale in the series.).

Quote:
For starters, she's able to lift and throw people many feet in the air without any magic whatsoever, can punch trough concrete, steel, and whatever alloy the Gadget drones are made of, her special Cyborg Power involves making her fists to emit wild supersonic vibrations something that requires an incredibly tough body to pull off an in such a state she can even punch trough the Saint Craddle's walls (something Nanoha only achieved with a Blaster-3 Divine Buster)
Nothing impressive - the little girls in Vivid have more impressive feats that can be scaled to Subaru in StrikerS, like Einhalt destroying Miura's golem's fist with her physical strength, and then later destroying the entire golem. The Golem's made of rock and tens of meters in height. Rio's lift and toss of this rock (just eyeballing shows it's more than a hundred tons). Hari's breaking of said rock. Nanoha under a limiter was stronger than Subaru was during the events of StrikerS, anyway. And everyone and their mother could cleave through Gadget Drones like butter (best displayed by Nanoha, Fate, and Signum, actually - they did it much easier than people like Ginga and Subaru did). Also, Divine Buster was used to reach Quattro down below in the Cradle while under an AMF, its usage doesn't mean anything and can't be used as an argument to suggest Nanoha couldn't break the walls of the Cradle like Subaru.

Quote:
, and don't forget what Keroko says about her new ability of braking weapons with her left hand. There's no doubt Nanoha and Fate are a lot more powerfull than Subaru in the overall scenario but physically Subaru is far stronger than them and most members of Section Six, being probably just as strong or even stronger than Vita and Signum themselves.
Sword Break is impressive, but not that much. Subaru is strong but not that strong.

Quote:
Quinn used an especial attack along with her divider sword, and attack Cypha explained in detail during their fight.
Also note Quinn didn't even scratch Cypha with the same method, Fate left Cypha with damage (Signum was damaging Cypha with several hits) and without getting hit in a fight. One attack from Cypha went through Quinn. Fate is much stronger than Quinn just like Cypha. It's also notable Fate was the only one on her side with the upper hand against her opponent in their tag match on Esquad, lol.

Quote:
Deville on the other hand damaged Erio's unit with brute streght alone.
Yeah, but then you have Thoma cleaving through Nanoha's Fortress Shields and she was fighting with him without going all out (she wasn't trying to beat him down, wasn't using her more powerful spells, no blaster bits or system, etc. No way she was operating with full power). Base DeVille was not on par with Fate (that would also suggest he could match a Reacted Cypha) and because of his quick transformation, we don't how he would've fared in a fight with her.

Quote:
It's doubtful if Vita and Signum could "curbstomp Quinn" tough, as she's an EC Driver and her reacted divider is probably even more powerfull.
They would.

Quote:
Cypha can get away with that because she have more experience with EC powers as also having the power of being tough as hell and thus able to fend off Quinn's attack that will be unblockable for non EC Driver opponents.
Non EC Driver opponents can block them ... as we've seen. Not being able to block an attack because of anti-magic also says nothing.

Quote:
Subaru's low rank came more likely from her limited fightstyle as she have mostly melee-range attacks and is unable to fly which can limit her effectiveness under certain conditions. For everything else, see the above explanation about her feats xD.
Yeah. Being able to be scaled as powerful as Arf is impressive because of Arf's feat on the Garden of Time when she blasts a hole (since the Garden of Time has been estimated to be massive, the size of the rocks she made fly in a fraction of a second were pretty big. Kinetic energy and all) to escape Precia.

Quote:
Correction, Fortress mode can physically contend with Tohma and Nanoah did go all out in the battle yet Tohma shruged of the damage like nothing due to his very powerfull healing factor. Once Tohma destroyed the Strike Cannon and the Fortress units(in one raid to boot) Nanoha was left totally defenseless and at his mercy being in the need to be rescued by Subaru before Tohma can deal the killing blow.
Nanoha wasn't operating with full power like I mentioned above and the intent wasn't to defeat Thoma in combat. Thoma did shrug off the damage but the attacks she used on him can't be compared to spells like Strike Stars, Exelion Buster, SLB, etc. I do have to say it was impressive he could withstand the heat of a plasma beam, though. Subaru saving Nanoha doesn't make her anymore impressive, Thoma would've destroyed her.

Quote:
Why is that a massive leap in logic? Isis surviving a broken neck from a man who can break steel with brute strenght alone is very clear feat of durability, Isis even bleed from the attack proving that Deville wasn't lying when he said he broke her neck. That's definetely something almost everyone else on Section Six wouldn't be able to rise from without assitance and some time in the hospital. It's also a hint about Isis misterious nature.
Breaking steel isn't impressive in the Nanoha universe and Base DeVille could not break the necks of everyone in Section Six, he hasn't even been proven to be as strong as the more powerful members.

Quote:
I agree with Curren being the strongest of them all, tough xD!
She's probably fight in chapter 40 in like 2 years.
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Old 2012-06-22, 13:16   Link #230
bhl88
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Corrected: She removed it before the SSX....... I saw a picture.
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Old 2012-06-22, 13:48   Link #231
Akiyoshi
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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Akiyoshi, have I talked to you on another forum?
I don't know but i think this will be the beginning of a loong friendship xDDD!!

I'll have a field day with this post xD!

Quote:
Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Nanoha could block Subaru and Teana's attacks without her device bare-handley under a limiter. Those two are stronger now, but Nanoha's physical strength (or high-tier or mid-tier mages in general) shouldn't be underestimated. The fact she can contend with Signum and Thoma (Thoma was much stronger while fighting Nanoha than he is currently) in physical combat puts her far above Subaru in physical strength.
Nanoha's hand was glowing, she wasn't blocking Subaru's hand with mere physical strenght in any way, she battle with Signum using RH's and barriers as support and battled Tohma while assisted by a moving floating mini-fortress, hardly feats of raw physical strenght xDU If Nanoha attempted to block Subaru's punches withouth using magic she'll probably end with broken fingers at best xDU

Quote:
Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
The fact we didn't see them do anything additional to block those attacks isn't supporting evidence towards them in fact doing so. Blocking the attacks is a feat.
It's indeed a feat, the fact is that we don't have evidence about the kind of feat as we didn't see how they blocked the attacks xD. Isis have some excuse but Agito doeasn't there's nothing there to sugguest she should be even able to tank Tohma's Silver Hammer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Zafira's barrier was just a barrier, we have nothing indicating it was "special." You have no basis to claim otherwise. While Chrono's attack wasn't focused, it still wasn't enough power to destroy his barrier and that's all that matters in this case.
It is a special shield, in fact, it's called wheel protection and is pretty powerfull to deflect attacks, some of Chrono's blades amnage to go directly into Zafira's arm, tough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Like I said before, Nanoha is much stronger than Subaru. Fate is, too. Jet Zanber is comparable to Vita's Gigantform as shown in A's and is now used as a basic melee attack. Her riot forms of her Zanber were able to OHK Tre and Sette (these were S-Ranks ...) while under an AMF and is now something she's shown using in base (upgraded and stronger forms). Zest was able to break Graf Eisen in a compact gigantform (it should carry the same durability, but not power) and knocked Vita out of unison, knocking out Rein II. Her device was not damaged while hitting Reinforce's barrier in A's (this is something that's been estimated to be hundreds of meters and over millions of tons due to how big Reinforce's body was, Vita swung it to reach the Defense System in a fraction of a second. Being able to do that makes her ordinary physical attacks with a more compact Graf Eisen strong as hell - Vita in A's is definitely not as strong as Fate, Signum, Nanoha, and other high tier characters are currently. And Subaru is as strong as Vita never. That's the single most impressive direct physical feat we can scale in the series.).
And all of that they was achieved at their ultimate states of power (Fate's Shin Sonic form, Vita's finisher attack, Zest's limit break etc...) and putting all of their magical and physical power togheter. Also Fate's sowrd lacks weight becuase it's a lightblade which actually makes sense cause it works well with her high-speed fightstyle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Nothing impressive - the little girls in Vivid have more impressive feats that can be scaled to Subaru in StrikerS, like Einhalt destroying Corona's golem's fist with her physical strength, and then later destroying the entire golem. The Golem's made of rock and tens of meters in height. Rio's lift and toss of this rock (just eyeballing shows it's more than a hundred tons). Hari's breaking of said rock.
The ViVid girls are truly impressive but there's also somejustification. Einhart didn't break the golem with strenght alone, she caste and used a technique of her school of magically enhaced martial arts xDU As for Rio's case, i bet she enhaces her physical strenght somehow ...if not, then she's probably also physically stronger than most Section Six members. As no one of them have such a feat of Raw physical strenght. Until seeing further confirmation i'll agree on Rio being stronger than Subaru since i haven't see har doing something like that yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Nanoha under a limiter was stronger than Subaru was during the events of StrikerS, anyway. And everyone and their mother could cleave through Gadget Drones like butter (best displayed by Nanoha, Fate, and Signum, actually - they did it much easier than people like Ginga and Subaru did). Also, Divine Buster was used to reach Quattro down below in the Cradle while under an AMF, its usage doesn't mean anything and can't be used as an argument to suggest Nanoha couldn't break the walls of the Cradle like Subaru.
Stronger overall, but not physically. The people cleaving gadgets drones does wielding devices who shoot or do enhaced meele attacks, Subaru is the only one who consistently rush trough them with punches and kicks, something no one else besides Ginga does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Sword Break is impressive, but not that much. Subaru is strong but not that strong.
Let's take into account that, for Sword Break to work Subaru first must hold still the blade in question. She has been able to stop flat the attacks of two VERY physically strong adversaries with the grip of her hand. And in an age where everyone is falling down like flies due to the Eclipse leaving their shields and barriers useless, Subaru is the only one who received equipement specifically designed to keep her as a cross-range fistfighter. That's some great confidence on her strenght and durability compared with everyone else who received upgrades that allow them to save face and keep some distance from EC Drivers on the battlefield (Strike Cannon and Ochstan beign guns, Fortrss mode, Signum's shooting shield, War Hammer's long plasma pile, etc).



Quote:
Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Also note Quinn didn't even scratch Cypha with the same method, Fate left Cypha with damage (Signum was damaging Cypha with several hits) and without getting hit in a fight. One attack from Cypha went through Quinn. Fate is much stronger than Quinn just like Cypha. It's also notable Fate was the only one on her side with the upper hand against her opponent in their tag match on Esquad, lol.
Because of one of Cypha's powers is specifically to be hard as hell. She also understand very well hoe EC energy works so she might be able to counter the effect of Quinn's attack (Cypha was explaining the nature of the attack as she seems to disperse some energy near the attackzone on her neck).

Quinn is able to cut trough AEC-Equipement like nothing so that's a REALLY bad omen for Signum if she tries to fight her.

I wonder when Fate got an "upper hand in battle" xDU. So far she has been fought Cypha who gives her an even fight and Deville who managed to hold her at bay without breaking a sweat once he reacted. Well, you can say she got an "upped hand" on the Bible of the Silver Cross with that surprise Jet Zamber to the face xD

Quote:
Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Yeah, but then you have Thoma cleaving through Nanoha's Fortress Shields and she was fighting with him without going all out (she wasn't trying to beat him down, wasn't using her more powerful spells, no blaster bits or system, etc. No way she was operating with full power). Base DeVille was not on par with Fate (that would also suggest he could match a Reacted Cypha) and because of his quick transformation, we don't how he would've fared in a fight with her.
The reason why Nanoha didn't used blaster system, blaster bits, or her other array of attack it's simply because she know they're useless against Tohma ...or any other EC Driver for that matter. Cypha's trashing of Signum left clearly stated that pure magic based attacks doesn't have ANY effect on an EC Driver whatsoever. Divine Buster, Strike Stars Assault, Excelion buster and other attacks are nothing more than a colorful pink flashlight show under Eclipse conditions. Nanoha fought using the attacks of her AEC-Weaponry, attacks that, unlike her usual magic, lack a "stun" setting, Strike Cannon's and Fortress Attacks provoke very real damage, damage that fortunately Tohma was able to shrug off due to a powerfull regeneration power.

I can't see why you say Deville is lacking in physicall strenght when we saw him fending off Fate's attacks without problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
They would.
With properly upgraded Graf Eisen and Laevatein maybe. But their AEC-Equipements don't have the resillence required to withstand Quinn's attacks. Both are also ignorant of how Quinn's attacks work which culd make them victims of grievous harm at the beginning of the fight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Non EC Driver opponents can block them ... as we've seen. Not being able to block an attack because of anti-magic also says nothing.
The only thing that bolqued Quinn's attack besides an EC-Driver was Caro's fortress shield which got promtly destroyed for it's troubles xDU

Quote:
Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Yeah. Being able to be scaled as powerful as Arf is impressive because of Arf's feat on the Garden of Time when she blasts a hole (since the Garden of Time has been estimated to be massive, the size of the rocks she made fly in a fraction of a second were pretty big. Kinetic energy and all) to escape Precia.
Nothing against Arf, cause i think she's awesome. But Subaru is probably more powerfull than her on the overall scale ...saves for the lack of flight powers. Suabru have short range but incredible destructive power. Her Divine Buster attack is a very powerrfull antipersonel attack and her attacks enhaced with her I.S. "Oscillating Breaker" become devastating to anything they touch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Nanoha wasn't operating with full power like I mentioned above and the intent wasn't to defeat Thoma in combat. Thoma did shrug off the damage but the attacks she used on him can't be compared to spells like Strike Stars, Exelion Buster, SLB, etc. I do have to say it was impressive he could withstand the heat of a plasma beam, though. Subaru saving Nanoha doesn't make her anymore impressive, Thoma would've destroyed her.
As i've said all the spells you've mentioned are utterly useless against any EC Driver by their mere nature as "spells" xDU Eclipse power don't block magical attacks, it nullyfies them, regardless of how powerfull those are. If you want to comment about Hayate's Heimdall, the attack was only effective because Hayate was using magic to gather physical mass and achieve a physical effect. Most Nanoha's attacks lacks such property, the only cannon attack of that nature she have is Stadust Fall which isn't very powerfull and cannot be performed while fighting Tohma over the ocean anyway xDU

Tohma do probably had been destroyed Subaru at the end but at the moment she still had better fighting chances against him than Nanoha or Vita.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Breaking steel isn't impressive in the Nanoha universe and Base DeVille could not break the necks of everyone in Section Six, he hasn't even been proven to be as strong as the more powerful members.
Most characters who break steel do it aided by magic or other enhacing effect, character like Devile and Subaru can do that with raw physical strenght. I really doubt Vita could punch trough steel, much less Nanoha or Fate.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
She's probably fight in chapter 40 in like 2 years.
Heh, when Curren appears, butts are kicked, no questions xD
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Old 2012-06-22, 15:07   Link #232
VezSketch
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
I don't know but i think this will be the beginning of a loong friendship xDDD!!

I'll have a field day with this post xD!
Oh, thought I did.

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Nanoha's hand was glowing, she wasn't blocking Subaru's hand with mere physical strenght in any way, she battle with Signum using RH's and barriers as support and battled Tohma while assisted by a moving floating mini-fortress, hardly feats of raw physical strenght xDU If Nanoha attempted to block Subaru's punches withouth using magic she'll probably end with broken fingers at best xDU
It's accepted mages' strength are augmented with magic (it's why they're so physically impressive in the first place and the source of their power. Eclipse Drivers' strength are augmented by energy, too), Nanoha's hand glowing doesn't mean anything. She specifically disables her device and catches both of their attacks (Teana's blade made her hand bleed). Although we don't know the details of this specific fight, Nanoha is shown being to go into close combat with Signum in that panel. Thoma was going at Nanoha physically and she was capable of warding off his attacks - she may have been using the Fortress, but they're mana driven equipment.

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It's indeed a feat, the fact is that we don't have evidence about the kind of feat as we didn't see how they blocked the attacks xD. Isis have some excuse but Agito doeasn't there's nothing there to sugguest she should be even able to tank Tohma's Silver Hammer.
Agito didn't tank it, she was damaged. She presumably threw up a shield, too.

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It is a special shield, in fact, it's called wheel protection and is pretty powerfull to deflect attacks, some of Chrono's blades amnage to go directly into Zafira's arm, tough.
I'm aware of the name and it in no way makes it a special shield. Only a few blades made it past his shield.

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And all of that they was achieved at their ultimate states of power (Fate's Shin Sonic form, Vita's finisher attack, Zest's limit break etc...) and putting all of their magical and physical power togheter.
Fate was in her Shin Sonic form, yeah. She was still under an AMF when she accomplished the feat, though. And she now uses more powerful variants. Vita's move in A's is not her finisher attack, she has demonstrated stronger ones. Full Drive is only using the most powerful form of a device. They were not putting their power together to accomplish the feats I cited. Vita was able to lift and swing something estimated to be over millions of tons in a fraction a second, the strength of her regular physical attacks with a compact Graf Eisen would be much stronger than the feats weaker characters have accomplished.

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Also Fate's sowrd lacks weight becuase it's a lightblade which actually makes sense cause it works well with her high-speed fightstyle.
Her sword clearly has weight, but I don't really see your point in mentioning this. My point is high tier mages' melee attacks are stronger than Subaru's. No idea why you're bringing up "raw physical strength" when it wasn't the point.

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The ViVid girls are truly impressive but there's also somejustification. Einhart didn't break the golem with strenght alone, she caste and used a technique of her school of magically enhaced martial arts xDU
She firstly stops the Golem's fist attack with one hand, catches it and then throws it back at the Golem, that's all she did. Said fist attack destroys the Golem. Every mage's strength is augmented by magic.

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As for Rio's case, i bet she enhaces her physical strenght somehow ...if not, then she's probably also physically stronger than most Section Six members. As no one of them have such a feat of Raw physical strenght. Until seeing further confirmation i'll agree on Rio being stronger than Subaru since i haven't see har doing something like that yet.
What? The little girls participating in Vivid aren't that powerful, where are you getting that from? And no, she is not stronger than Section Six members. Subaru is far stronger than Rio, meaning Rio's feat can be applied to her. Rio isn't stronger. And of course her physical strength is enhanced by magic - everyone's is.

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Stronger overall, but not physically. The people cleaving gadgets drones does wielding devices who shoot or do enhaced meele attacks, Subaru is the only one who consistently rush trough them with punches and kicks, something no one else besides Ginga does.
Of course they're wielding devices, I never said they weren't - that wasn't the point of the discussion. Ginga and Subaru also wield devices and their strength is augmented by magic. They're still physical attacks.

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Let's take into account that, for Sword Break to work Subaru first must hold still the blade in question. She has been able to stop flat the attacks of two VERY physically strong adversaries with the grip of her hand. And in an age where everyone is falling down like flies due to the Eclipse leaving their shields and barriers useless, Subaru is the only one who received equipement specifically designed to keep her as a cross-range fistfighter. That's some great confidence on her strenght and durability compared with everyone else who received upgrades that allow them to save face and keep some distance from EC Drivers on the battlefield (Strike Cannon and Ochstan beign guns, Fortrss mode, Signum's shooting shield, War Hammer's long plasma pile, etc).
This has no relevance in the comparison of the strength of the characters. Subaru's entire style is physical ...

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Because of one of Cypha's powers is specifically to be hard as hell.
Yes, Cypha is durable, yet Fate and Signum were able to cut her while Quinn couldn't. Fate and Signum can match Cypha in close combat, Cypha cut Quinn down with one hit. Esclipse Drivers are not absurdly more powerful than everyone else, it's their anti magic for the most part.

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She also understand very well hoe EC energy works so she might be able to counter the effect of Quinn's attack (Cypha was explaining the nature of the attack as she seems to disperse some energy near the attackzone on her neck).
This is baseless speculation.

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Quinn is able to cut trough AEC-Equipement like nothing so that's a REALLY bad omen for Signum if she tries to fight her.
AEC-Equipment is magic driven, being able to cut through Erio's doesn't mean she could do the same to Signum's. She's far more powerful. Feats show Signum can end Quinn in a similar manner as Cypha did.

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I wonder when Fate got an "upper hand in battle" xDU. So far she has been fought Cypha who gives her an even fight and Deville who managed to hold her at bay without breaking a sweat once he reacted.
Cypha did not damage Fate in their fight and DeVille was not shown "not breaking a sweat." That's simply you making it sound more impressive than it was shown. We do not see much of their fight at all after he reacted and Fate was shown besting him in his base form.

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The reason why Nanoha didn't used blaster system, blaster bits, or her other array of attack it's simply because she know they're useless against Tohma ...or any other EC Driver for that matter.
The reasons don't matter - the fact is she didn't use them (something you just said was true), meaning she wasn't operating under full power as the AEC weaponry are not (and hasn't been proven to be) as powerful and was therefore handicapped. She was also attempting to disable him, very much like the fight with Vivio on the Cradle.

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Nanoha fought using the attacks of her AEC-Weaponry, attacks that, unlike her usual magic, lack a "stun" setting, Strike Cannon's and Fortress Attacks provoke very real damage, damage that fortunately Tohma was able to shrug off due to a powerfull regeneration power.
His regeneration wasn't the reason why he shrugged them off, they failed to do any significant damage.

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I can't see why you say Deville is lacking in physicall strenght when we saw him fending off Fate's attacks without problem.
Only a reacted DeVille was shown to be able to fend off Fate's attacks. He's not lacking in strength, Base DeVille just isn't as powerful as a few other characters can be proven to be.

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With properly upgraded Graf Eisen and Laevatein maybe. But their AEC-Equipements don't have the resillence required to withstand Quinn's attacks. Both are also ignorant of how Quinn's attacks work which culd make them victims of grievous harm at the beginning of the fight.
Not really. Being able to break AEC Equipment doesn't mean she would be able to break any and everyone's.

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The only thing that bolqued Quinn's attack besides an EC-Driver was Caro's fortress shield which got promtly destroyed for it's troubles xDU
Caro is surely as powerful as Vita and Signum, lol.

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Nothing against Arf, cause i think she's awesome. But Subaru is probably more powerfull than her on the overall scale ...saves for the lack of flight powers. Suabru have short range but incredible destructive power. Her Divine Buster attack is a very powerrfull antipersonel attack and her attacks enhaced with her I.S. "Oscillating Breaker" become devastating to anything they touch.
Arf's feat is more impressive (The Garden of Time is huge, Arthra has been estimated to be more than a kilometer in size) than anything that can be scaled to Subaru in StrikerS before becoming an AA rank mage, she's possibly stronger than Arf currently but that's pretty impossible to know for sure. Not that I'm saying Arf's stronger.

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As i've said all the spells you've mentioned are utterly useless against any EC Driver by their mere nature as "spells" xDU Eclipse power don't block magical attacks, it nullyfies them, regardless of how powerfull those are.
I'm aware, which is why they can't be said to be able to take the damage those attacks can give out because they nullify them due to their nature ...

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If you want to comment about Hayate's Heimdall, the attack was only effective because Hayate was using magic to gather physical mass and achieve a physical effect. Most Nanoha's attacks lacks such property, the only cannon attack of that nature she have is Stadust Fall which isn't very powerfull and cannot be performed while fighting Tohma over the ocean anyway xDU
Uh, what? Nanoha's attacks can generate physical damage (physical damage is done with magic by moving the molecules that make up the target - magic can kill, clearly), it's just that Eclipse Driver nullify by breaking the bonds of magic. AEC Equipment just instantly coverts the magical energy into physical effects, so they can't do that. My point was you can't compare the attacks she dealt to Thoma to her more powerful attacks without reason.

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Tohma do probably had been destroyed Subaru at the end but at the moment she still had better fighting chances against him than Nanoha or Vita.
Huh? Subaru did have better fighting chances than a Nanoha without anti eclipse weaponry and a knocked out Vita, yeah. Nothing suggests she could keep up with Thoma, especially breaking his device with an ability fine-tuned to do just that.

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Most characters who break steel do it aided by magic or other enhacing effect, character like Devile and Subaru can do that with raw physical strenght. I really doubt Vita could punch trough steel, much less Nanoha or Fate.
You are aware everyone's strength is augmented by a type of energy when you say "raw physical strength", right? Subaru can not be proven to be as powerful as the other members.

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Heh, when Curren appears, butts are kicked, no questions xD
More than likely.

Last edited by VezSketch; 2012-06-22 at 15:56. Reason: Grammar ... other stuff
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Old 2012-06-22, 22:57   Link #233
WarpObscura
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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
Who's the author of that, Obscura? I think they forgot Vita's personality there for a second.
... Why're you dragging me into this? What did I do??

... If you're talking about Lyrical Twilight, it's a MLPFIM crossover where Twilight gets Raising Heart instead of Nanoha. Here's the chapter, though you should start from the first "season" for context.
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Old 2012-06-23, 00:10   Link #234
Justin_Brett
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...because you probably knew who it was by? I wasn't trying to say you suck or anything, sorry.

And oh. That story. Yeah that would explain it.
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Old 2012-06-23, 01:07   Link #235
Akiyoshi
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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
It's accepted mages' strength are augmented with magic (it's why they're so physically impressive in the first place and the source of their power. Eclipse Drivers' strength are augmented by energy, too), Nanoha's hand glowing doesn't mean anything. She specifically disables her device and catches both of their attacks (Teana's blade made her hand bleed). Although we don't know the details of this specific fight, Nanoha is shown being to go into close combat with Signum in that panel. Thoma was going at Nanoha physically and she was capable of warding off his attacks - she may have been using the Fortress, but they're mana driven equipment.
Nanoha's hand was protected by a magical barrier which is what allowed her to safely catch Subaru's fist (and by the record i really doubt Subaru was attacking Nanoha seriously, she'll be like the last person in the world who would want to hurt her xDU). Teana was very serious in her intention and her magical knife was more likely made with the goal to pierce barriers which could explain why Nanoha's hand was bleeding. EC Drivers are very different, while they can enhace the power of their attacks their bodies are naturally enhaced so their raw physical strenght and resillence rises far beyond that of normal humans and other human-like beings (Fate, Wolkenritter, familiars). Nanoha was fighting Signum in a magical battle while using Raising Heart so her resillence and physical attacks are also magically enhaced.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Agito didn't tank it, she was damaged. She presumably threw up a shield, too.
That's no excuse either, EC powered attacks are suppossed to pierce any conventional shield spell like the ones Agito cast. By force, Agito should done something else or different in order to block Tohma's Silver Hammer. Cypha easily blasted her previously with an arguably less powerfull EC powered beam attack.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
I'm aware of the name and it in no way makes it a special shield. Only a few blades made it past his shield.
It work different than your regular Round Shield or Panzerschild, so it's special.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Fate was in her Shin Sonic form, yeah. She was still under an AMF when she accomplished the feat, though. And she now uses more powerful variants. Vita's move in A's is not her finisher attack, she has demonstrated stronger ones. Full Drive is only using the most powerful form of a device. They were not putting their power together to accomplish the feats I cited. Vita was able to lift and swing something estimated to be over millions of tons in a fraction a second, the strength of her regular physical attacks with a compact Graf Eisen would be much stronger than the feats weaker characters have accomplished.
And? Subaru did arguably equal feats of strenght inside the craddle, in fact she demonstrated how powerfull she is by punching trough Craddle walls without any magic whatsoever because the AMF was at 100% depowering everyone, even powerhouses like Nanoha and Hayate. About Vita and Graf Eisen, their limit break seems to be something they developed over the course of the years, and the attack she used against the book seems to be the strongest she had at the time. In fact, it seemed to be even stronger than the one she used against the Cradle's engine, but she lacked space and was being affected by AMF at the time so i guess that was the reason why she didn't pulled off that.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Her sword clearly has weight, but I don't really see your point in mentioning this. My point is high tier mages' melee attacks are stronger than Subaru's. No idea why you're bringing up "raw physical strength" when it wasn't the point.
We weren't talking about characters physical strenght then? If that the case then i'll give you mroe credit as Fate and other melee specialists have powerfull melee attacks. But that doesn't count as "physical strenght" because that only counts for the natural strenght of their bodies. I'm pretty sure Subaru can own nearly everyone in Section Six on arm wrestling or a non-magical fistfight xD

As i've mentioned Nanoha is a mere human, her physical strenght without magic is probably just slightly above average due to military training and good shape. Nothing impressive aside of that. At least Fate is an arguably enhaced clone that will justify some impressive physical feats.

Subaru's attacks only lack range in comparission with the top tier but, their destructive capacity is eaqual, if not stronger, than some of the attacks used by the top tier characters. Specially the ones performed whil in Cyborg mode.

As for Bardiche's zamber mode it's a magical blade made of light, that doesn't sound very "heavy" to me xDU It's very resillent, no doubt about that but it seems to be very lightweight.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
She firstly stops the Golem's fist attack with one hand, catches it and then throws it back at the Golem, that's all she did. Said fist attack destroys the Golem. Every mage's strength is augmented by magic.
Just when they fight, normal Einhart doesn't seem to be as powerfull, a fact even Nove pointed out early in the series. She even was very impressed when she saw an untransformed Miura breaking a wooden pole with a kick without magic. Breaking wood with a kick is in fact a very impressive feat for a normal human being like Miura and Einhart and it was also actual lampshading of how monstruous Miura's melee attacks will become when enhaced by magic. So no, while it's true magic enhaces physical attacks that doesn't make it eaqual to acharacter's "physical strenght".

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
What? The little girls participating in Vivid aren't that powerful, where are you getting that from? And no, she is not stronger than Section Six members. Subaru is far stronger than Rio, meaning Rio's feat can be applied to her. Rio isn't stronger. And of course her physical strength is enhanced by magic - everyone's is.
Now you're contradicting yourself. You first said Nanoha and Fate are stronger than Subaru due to the latter's lack of feats. Then Rio pulled of a feat never achieved by anyone else and you immediately discredit her. No one else in the series has shown been able to brake concrete and grab a giant chunk of it with their bare hands. Not Subaru and certainly neither Nanoha, Fate or other members of Section Six. Everyone was impressed by Rio's enormous strenght at the moment, so it's safe to assume that's something Nanoha can't pull off even with her magically enhaced strenght, not because Nanoha is "weaker" but because Nanoha's magic is not applied that way and probably her body would suffer from doing that as well.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Of course they're wielding devices, I never said they weren't - that wasn't the point of the discussion. Ginga and Subaru also wield devices and their strength is augmented by magic. They're still physical attacks.
Subaru and Ginga doesn't need magic enhacements for strenght, in fact their equipement is mostly made to control their strenght rather than enhacing it. Subaru's cyborg mode was so darn powerful that her Equipement actually failed to catch up to her pwoer and promtly breaks, needing Shari to upgrade the device to be able to withstand Subaru's might. The same with Ginga, Scaglietti kidnapped her and enhaced her to full Cyborg potential tranforming her into a much stronger opponent (albeit more limited since she was only using the Ginga Drill Breaker xDU).

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
This has no relevance in the comparison of the strength of the characters. Subaru's entire style is physical...
I think it does, the Huckebein showed to be able to take down pwoerhouses like Signum with surprisingly ease. And most of the new equipement was made with defensive and/or long range purpouses in mind ....except Subaru's. She's not only very strong but also very durable and resillent, able to keep moving and fighting even while holding greivous harm on her body, something only determinators with very durable bodies like Vita can pull off. The Divide Zero Eclipse knocked almost everyone in a two warship radius and everyone inside the ship ...except Cypha and Subaru. Cypha is a super-tough, eclipse driver and Subaru is a super tough type zero combat cyborg. Fate even suffered cardiac arrest.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Yes, Cypha is durable, yet Fate and Signum were able to cut her while Quinn couldn't. Fate and Signum can match Cypha in close combat, Cypha cut Quinn down with one hit. Esclipse Drivers are not absurdly more powerful than everyone else, it's their anti magic for the most part.
Fate barely scratched her (i laugh at the concept of people calling some scratches as "having the upper hand" the fight was too short for someone even ganing any sort of upper hand xDU). Signum cut and arm but the first time it required enormous effort form her part and the second time she was using equipement specifically designed to do exactly that. Cypha was pretty smug at blocking Quinn's unreacted attack but she wasn't so confident once Quinn reacted so she decided to defeat her quickly and take away her divider.

EC Driver are, in fact, absurdly more powerfull than everyone else, it's the entire point of the series and the reason why the heroes has been failing so hard for over two years against them. Ultimate attacks blocked, previous high-tier characters defeated easily/quickly and the AEC-Equipement failing again and again to deal significant damage and getting constantly destroyed, even those specifically made for heavy defensive purpouses like the Fortress unit and Signum's shooting shield. EC Drivers are tougher, stronger and more violent than any previous character of the series which give them an great edge on the battlefield.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
This is baseless speculation.
Cypha in fact, allowed Quinn to hit her knowing perfectly her attack will fail, so she can teach Tohma a lesson about EC powered attacks. Or Cypha was smug enough to think she's immune to Quinn's attacks, or she really knew exactly what she's doing and knew exactly how to make Quinn's attack uneffective (my money is on the second guessing xD).

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
AEC-Equipment is magic driven, being able to cut through Erio's doesn't mean she could do the same to Signum's. She's far more powerful. Feats show Signum can end Quinn in a similar manner as Cypha did.
Correction, AEC-Equipement is magic powered, the only difference between users is the raw mana they can process which will determinate how quickly the battery will charge. The resillence of each device isn't directly related to the user. Curren destroyed two Strike Cannons from different wielders of very different levels (Vita and Erio) with barely an effort. Tohma did the same to Nanoha's unit and the fortress shields. Cypha also break Signum's shield barehanded.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Cypha did not damage Fate in their fight and DeVille was not shown "not breaking a sweat." That's simply you making it sound more impressive than it was shown. We do not see much of their fight at all after he reacted and Fate was shown besting him in his base form.
Cypha didn't damaged Fate because she didn't have time to and probably because Fate is just that good of a fencer, remember Cypha had serious troubles with Signum's speed, and Fate being even faster will mean she'll be an even more difficult target to hit. The same way, Deville escaped his bout with Fate completely unscatched, he even took the luxury of leaving the fight without giving a heck about the blonde swordswoman.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
The reasons don't matter - the fact is she didn't use them (something you just said was true), meaning she wasn't operating under full power as the AEC weaponry are not (and hasn't been proven to be) as powerful and was therefore handicapped. She was also attempting to disable him, very much like the fight with Vivio on the Cradle.
I agree with you on this. AEC-Equipement is nowhere as powerfull as the usual devices and the attacks produced by those are more likely weaker than the original powerset of the old cast, saldy that powerset were left useless in the face of Eclipse (except Fate's thanks to Bardiche's 5th Gen upgrade). It's very difficult and quite annoying to measure the strenght of old characters inc omparission to the Huckebein because they are denied to fight them with their true strenght roght from the beginning. It's very jarring.

The thing with Nanoha's fight agaisnt Tohma is that he's immuned to binds and Nanoha's new weapons can't do "non-lethal" attacks so the only way to "disable" Tohma is to blast the crap out of him ...which doesn't work because he's just that strong xDU.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
His regeneration wasn't the reason why he shrugged them off, they failed to do any significant damage.
A combination of both, the attacks aren't as powerfull as Nanoha's usual arsenal but Fortis pointed she do managed to harm tohma but didn't matter at the end because he quickly restored the damage anyway.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Only a reacted DeVille was shown to be able to fend off Fate's attacks. He's not lacking in strength, Base DeVille just isn't as powerful as a few other characters can be proven to be.
Base Deville is at least as strong or stronger than thepowered-up forwards (except maybe Subaru) and arguably at the same level of strenght as the base captains.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Not really. Being able to break AEC Equipment doesn't mean she would be able to break any and everyone's.
Quite the contrary, Quinn destroyed Strike Cannon's and fortress shields alike with ease. Carter Grendel managed to destroy a War Hammer the same way. Cypha crushed Signum's AEC-Shield. The irony comes with two of those equipements are specifically made with the intention of withstand strong attacks. That doesn't talk well about their resillence xDU.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Caro is surely as powerful as Vita and Signum, lol.
No, but her AEC-Equipement is just as strong (if not stronger as it's a fortress unit designed for heavy defense).

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
I'm aware, which is why they can't be said to be able to take the damage those attacks can give out because they nullify them due to their nature ...
Also agreed.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Uh, what? Nanoha's attacks can generate physical damage (physical damage is done with magic by moving the molecules that make up the target - magic can kill, clearly), it's just that Eclipse Driver nullify by breaking the bonds of magic. AEC Equipment just instantly coverts the magical energy into physical effects, so they can't do that. My point was you can't compare the attacks she dealt to Thoma to her more powerful attacks without reason.
You yourself answered the question xD Physical damage is not the same as a physical effect. In a sense, almost ALL spells deal physical damage cause that's the main purpouse for most of them xDU Nanoha's spells deal physical damage trough magical energy. Hayate's heimdall only uses magic to gather physicall mass, change it's shape and throw it to achieve a physicall effect. Another example is Isis magic which only controls and mix chemicals to produce chemical reactions, some of them responsible of very real physical effects like explosions and the like.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Huh? Subaru did have better fighting chances than a Nanoha without anti eclipse weaponry and a knocked out Vita, yeah. Nothing suggests she could keep up with Thoma, especially breaking his device with an ability fine-tuned to do just that.
With a stronger body, a device who can channel non-magical attacks and the only AEC-Equipement who does it's job well. I think she could stand against Tohma for some time. I never said she'll defeat him, just that her chances to fight him are better than Nanoha's at the time xD

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
You are aware everyone's strength is augmented by a type of energy when you say "raw physical strength", right? Subaru can not be proven to be as powerful as the other members.
The difference between magically enhaced melee attacks and "physical strenght" was already expalined above xD

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
More than likely.
Curren is Invincible xD
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Old 2012-06-23, 08:14   Link #236
WarpObscura
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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
...because you probably knew who it was by? I wasn't trying to say you suck or anything, sorry.

And oh. That story. Yeah that would explain it.
None taken.

But what do you mean by "that story"? Why would it "explain it"?
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Old 2012-06-23, 09:55   Link #237
VezSketch
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Nanoha's hand was protected by a magical barrier which is what allowed her to safely catch Subaru's fist (and by the record i really doubt Subaru was attacking Nanoha seriously, she'll be like the last person in the world who would want to hurt her xDU).
She caught her first in her hand (you know, augmented strength) with ease, a simple barrier would not allow you to do that. There's no getting around that with your speculation, it's a fact.

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EC Drivers are very different, while they can enhace the power of their attacks their bodies are naturally enhaced so their raw physical strenght and resillence rises far beyond that of normal humans and other human-like beings (Fate, Wolkenritter, familiars). Nanoha was fighting Signum in a magical battle while using Raising Heart so her resillence and physical attacks are also magically enhaced.
Everyone has their strength augmented by energy and their devices .... No one's talking about "raw physical strength" other than you. If both Nanoha and Subaru were using NO MAGIC whatsoever, of course Subaru would be stronger - she's a damned cyborg.

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That's no excuse either, EC powered attacks are suppossed to pierce any conventional shield spell like the ones Agito cast.
Do you have any idea what you're talking about? Just because they have anti magic doesn't mean you can't defend from their bombardments.

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Cypha easily blasted her previously with an arguably less powerfull EC powered beam attack.
Or maybe Cypha's blast was stronger ... Occam's razor and all.

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It work different than your regular Round Shield or Panzerschild, so it's special.
No, simply because it differs from the MOST BASIC defensive spells doesn't make it special i.e. Nanoha's round shield can take far damage than Zafira's flimsy shield. "It works differently, therefore it's special", that's not even a logical argument.

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And? Subaru did arguably equal feats of strenght inside the craddle, in fact she demonstrated how powerfull she is by punching trough Craddle walls without any magic whatsoever because the AMF was at 100% depowering everyone, even powerhouses like Nanoha and Hayate.
If we were talking about them without magic, you would have a point. Bad news is we aren't, so you don't have a point. Subaru is stronger than a regular human without magic. That was never the argument, so stop mentioning it.

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About Vita and Graf Eisen, their limit break seems to be something they developed over the course of the years, and the attack she used against the book seems to be the strongest she had at the time.
I'm not talking about Gigantschlag itself - enlarging her device and swinging it is not Gigantschlag, she further enhances it with magic and thus that's the attack. She can make Graf Eisen that big without using Gigantschlag. I'm talking about the sheer size and kinetic energy her gigantform would hold at that size and being swung that fast. And her ability to lift and swing a hammer over a million tons with ease.

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In fact, it seemed to be even stronger than the one she used against the Cradle's engine, but she lacked space and was being affected by AMF at the time so i guess that was the reason why she didn't pulled off that.
Don't care if it seemed to be stronger, there's no proof it is. The fact that her device was being damaged is proof the attacks were stronger.

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We weren't talking about characters physical strenght then? If that the case then i'll give you mroe credit as Fate and other melee specialists have powerfull melee attacks. But that doesn't count as "physical strenght" because that only counts for the natural strenght of their bodies. I'm pretty sure Subaru can own nearly everyone in Section Six on arm wrestling or a non-magical fistfight xD
It kind of does count as physical strength, Vita isn't as strong as others in Force and she was able to lift over millions of tons with ease. Cypha destroy a mountain sized iceberg and turned it into bits with one slash. Subaru can't do that, meaning she'd lose in arm wrestling repeatedly. In a non-magical fist fight ...

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As i've mentioned Nanoha is a mere human, her physical strenght without magic is probably just slightly above average due to military training and good shape. Nothing impressive aside of that. At least Fate is an arguably enhaced clone that will justify some impressive physical feats.
No shit. Sorry, couldn't resist.

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Subaru's attacks only lack range in comparission with the top tier but, their destructive capacity is eaqual, if not stronger, than some of the attacks used by the top tier characters. Specially the ones performed whil in Cyborg mode.
Nope, they aren't. Going by feats and acceptable powerscaling, S1 Nanoha would kill Subaru with a single Divine Buster or two (two would be overkill and her DB shits on Subaru's). The same Divine Buster that went through Garden of Time (something estimated to be kilometers in size, the dust it generated and the hole indicates the volume both Thunder Smasher and Divine Buster went through was pulverized). It's an attack that's capable of destroying a city (the AOE variant of it also covered tens of kilometers when used, Fate was able to block Divine Buster in S1 and Nanoha took a strongest attack). And both Thunder Smasher and Divine Buster went through Garden of Time in a fraction of a second (making them several multiple times the minimum of hypersonic), being extremely fast. S1 Fate was able to dodge and react to Nanoha's DB with ease and was easier than dodging Nanoha herself. Subaru would get blitzed, too.

I'm also not pulling numbers out of my ass, if you wanted to know. I'm kind of downplaying. Only Subaru's strongest attack can be scaled from Arf's blast, it's the safest assumption and Subaru doesn't have any other options because she's relatively weak. Her Divine Buster is stronger than Nanoha's weakest attacks, yeah. Obviously. Nanoha and others are so beyond them in terms of feats it isn't even funny. There's like a giant discrepancy and it's probably why people loathe StrikerS so much.

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Just when they fight, normal Einhart doesn't seem to be as powerfull, a fact even Nove pointed out early in the series. She even was very impressed when she saw an untransformed Miura breaking a wooden pole with a kick without magic. Breaking wood with a kick is in fact a very impressive feat for a normal human being like Miura and Einhart and it was also actual lampshading of how monstruous Miura's melee attacks will become when enhaced by magic. So no, while it's true magic enhaces physical attacks that doesn't make it eaqual to acharacter's "physical strenght".
Uh, what's your point? No one's talking about breaking wood and I'm already aware of everything you just said. The more impressive things are done because their strength is augmented by magic, that was my entire point.

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Now you're contradicting yourself. You first said Nanoha and Fate are stronger than Subaru due to the latter's lack of feats. Then Rio pulled of a feat never achieved by anyone else and you immediately discredit her.
Firstly, I'm not contradicting myself. Secondly, Rio is a 10 year old girl, she is not as strong as Subaru and claiming otherwise would truly be idiotic. Thirdly, I've already mentioned physical feats far superior (Vita's hammer lift and swing, Cypha destroying a mountain sized iceberg, etc.) to Rio's that can be scaled to Nanoha, Fate, and others. If you're seriously debating a loli in Vivid is anywhere near as strong as even Subaru, I think we're done here.

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No one else in the series has shown been able to brake concrete and grab a giant chunk of it with their bare hands.
There's a thing called powerscaling - if a weaker character can accomplish it, a stronger character can do the same. Without powerscaling, everyone in StrikerS can pretty much only hope to destroy a steel wall with their attacks. Please tell me I don't have to explain something this simple.

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Subaru and Ginga doesn't need magic enhacements for strenght, in fact their equipement is mostly made to control their strenght rather than enhacing it.
Their devices enhance their magic, therefore enhancing their strength. Get out of here with that mess.
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I think it does, the Huckebein showed to be able to take down pwoerhouses like Signum with surprisingly ease.
With anti-magic .... ANY MAGE GETTING HIT BY CYPHA WOULD'VE BEEN TOAST. I have no idea what your problem with Signum is, but that's just common sense.

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The Divide Zero Eclipse knocked almost everyone in a two warship radius and everyone inside the ship ...except Cypha and Subaru. Cypha is a super-tough, eclipse driver and Subaru is a super tough type zero combat cyborg. Fate even suffered cardiac arrest.
.... That shit also had Hayate kneeling down on the ground. Subaru must be beastly ... Sorry, I thought we were just typing out non-sequiturs. C'mon, Subaru is a combat cyborg.

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Fate barely scratched her (i laugh at the concept of people calling some scratches as "having the upper hand" the fight was too short for someone even ganing any sort of upper hand xDU).
Fate damaged her, was clearly blocking her attacks, and wasn't hit once in the entire fight. IF that isn't the upper hand, I have no clue what it is. And please, don't answer that. I'm not arguing semantics with you, that's the last thing I'm doing ....

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Cypha was pretty smug at blocking Quinn's unreacted attack but she wasn't so confident once Quinn reacted so she decided to defeat her quickly and take away her divider.
And yet she defeated her with ease. Stop bringing up insignificant shit, my friend. These posts are long enough.

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EC Driver are, in fact, absurdly more powerfull than everyone else, it's the entire point of the series and the reason why the heroes has been failing so hard for over two years against them.
Nope, it's due to the nature of their regeneration and anti-magic in their reacted forms that make them "absurdly powerful." Unreacted, Signum was clearly superior to Cypha. They are not significant stronger than S+ Rank mages and this has been shown in fights.

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The resillence of each device isn't directly related to the user.
Magical driven devices that are protected by magic doesn't relate to the user? Makes pretty sense.

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Curren destroyed two Strike Cannons from different wielders of very different levels (Vita and Erio) with barely an effort. Tohma did the same to Nanoha's unit and the fortress shields. Cypha also break Signum's shield barehanded.
Curren is much stronger than Vita (a quick tip in powerscaling, this would mean she could replicate Vita's giant hammer lift feat) and Erio, yeah. And you should be well aware Thoma (again, when he was fighting Nanoha > him currently), Curren, and a Reacted Cypha are the Eclipse Drivers with the best showings.

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Cypha didn't damaged Fate because she didn't have time to and probably because Fate is just that good of a fencer, remember Cypha had serious troubles with Signum's speed, and Fate being even faster will mean she'll be an even more difficult target to hit.
What's your point? I never said Cypha couldn't damage Fate (if I did, that would mean Signum couldn't damage Fate). And only a unreacted Cypha had a problem with Signum's speed and that was just barely.

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The same way, Deville escaped his bout with Fate completely unscatched, he even took the luxury of leaving the fight without giving a heck about the blonde swordswoman.
So what? Fate left without a scratch and we haven't seen DeVille in the series since because he's an insignificant spec of trash. See, look at what I did there.

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I agree with you on this. AEC-Equipement is nowhere as powerfull as the usual devices and the attacks produced by those are more likely weaker than the original powerset of the old cast, saldy that powerset were left useless in the face of Eclipse (except Fate's thanks to Bardiche's 5th Gen upgrade). It's very difficult and quite annoying to measure the strenght of old characters inc omparission to the Huckebein because they are denied to fight them with their true strenght roght from the beginning. It's very jarring.
Yep. Cypha's fight with Signum was good, though. She showed some durability.

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Base Deville is at least as strong or stronger than thepowered-up forwards (except maybe Subaru) and arguably at the same level of strenght as the base captains.
Nope, as far as we know, he's far stronger than Subaru and he's surely around Fate's level.

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Quite the contrary, Quinn destroyed Strike Cannon's and fortress shields alike with ease.
You are aware they're protected by magic?

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Carter Grendel managed to destroy a War Hammer the same way.
Yeah, I bet he would break Vita's War Hammer, too ...

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Cypha crushed Signum's AEC-Shield. The irony comes with two of those equipements are specifically made with the intention of withstand strong attacks. That doesn't talk well about their resillence xDU.
Cypha's one of the strongest characters in the series.

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No, but her AEC-Equipement is just as strong (if not stronger as it's a fortress unit designed for heavy defense).
It isn't and wouldn't make any sense.

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You yourself answered the question xD Physical damage is not the same as a physical effect. In a sense, almost ALL spells deal physical damage cause that's the main purpouse for most of them xDU
Physical damage = physical effect. What are you going on about? The breaking of the bonds just doesn't allow the magic to do that.

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With a stronger body, a device who can channel non-magical attacks and the only AEC-Equipement who does it's job well. I think she could stand against Tohma for some time. I never said she'll defeat him, just that her chances to fight him are better than Nanoha's at the time xD
Subaru wouldn't stand a chance against Thoma.

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The difference between magically enhaced melee attacks and "physical strenght" was already expalined above xD
Physical strength is physical strength. No one was talking "raw physical strength", as in no magic, and I have no idea why it was brought up.
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Old 2012-06-23, 11:13   Link #238
Keroko
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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
She caught her first in her hand (you know, augmented strength) with ease, a simple barrier would not allow you to do that. There's no getting around that with your speculation, it's a fact.
The field-type defensive spell allow for this, and is far more likely given Nanoha's skill with defensive magic.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
It kind of does count as physical strength, Vita isn't as strong as others in Force and she was able to lift over millions of tons with ease. Cypha destroy a mountain sized iceberg and turned it into bits with one slash. Subaru can't do that, meaning she'd lose in arm wrestling repeatedly. In a non-magical fist fight ...
Flawed argument, given that magical slash attacks and magical endurance are far from the same thing. Subaru's physical strength has more caveats than this. Cyborg + magic X rank = different answer then you would get if you would do human + magic X rank.

As a cyborg, Subaru has a raw physical strength that rivals Nove, who has an equivalent of a AAA rank in physical strength. Without magic. Now add Subaru's AA magic rank on to that, and Subaru will push at least into the S-rank when it comes to physical strength.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Magical driven devices that are protected by magic doesn't relate to the user? Makes pretty sense.
He's got a partial point that devices can be designed for offense, speed, support or defense. Beyond that... well, yeah. Giving Raising Heart to a random TSAB smuck is not going to do much.

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
Curren is much stronger than Vita (a quick tip in powerscaling, this would mean she could replicate Vita's giant hammer lift feat) and Erio, yeah. And you should be well aware Thoma (again, when he was fighting Nanoha > him currently), Curren, and a Reacted Cypha are the Eclipse Drivers with the best showings.
I would not go this far. The difference between using energy for magic attacks and using energy for physical enhancement is as far apart is running is from punching. Being good at one does not automatically make you good at the other. Case in point: Hayate. Shit-tons of mana, chain-nuke spells that make Nanoha shuffle her feet, sucks worse than Caro in melee. Reason? No aptitude for it.

Just because Curren is stronger than Vita in ranged piercing attacks does not mean she can replicate her hammer lift. That's physical strength and endurance.
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Old 2012-06-23, 11:58   Link #239
VezSketch
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
The field-type defensive spell allow for this, and is far more likely given Nanoha's skill with defensive magic.
Field magic would not allow someone to catch the fist of someone who's physically superior to them. It simply surrounds the user with protection, it doesn't augment the strength of the user. Nanoha was not pushed back by Subaru's strength. When do we see it working like that?

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Flawed argument, given that magical slash attacks and magical endurance are far from the same thing. Subaru's physical strength has more caveats than this. Cyborg + magic X rank = different answer then you would get if you would do human + magic X rank.
Subaru was having trouble with Veyron, who has not demonstrated himself to be as strong as Cypha or DeVille.

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As a cyborg, Subaru has a raw physical strength that rivals Nove, who has an equivalent of a AAA rank in physical strength. Without magic. Now add Subaru's AA magic rank on to that, and Subaru will push at least into the S-rank when it comes to physical strength.
I remember Nove beating Subaru with ease in StrikerS? And Subaru and Nove were fighting equally in Vivid, from what I recall. That's actually pushing it comparing them to S Rank without any feats and requires flimsy powerscaling. How strong Subaru is now is kind of a mystery and the way Force is dealing with things, we probably won't find out. Not to mention Base Fate >= Tre and Sette (S+ Ranks without magic ... You're positive magic is not accounted for in the ranks the Numbers were given?) while even under an AMF.

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He's got a partial point that devices can be designed for offense, speed, support or defense. Beyond that... well, yeah. Giving Raising Heart to a random TSAB smuck is not going to do much.
Agreed with everything.

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I would not go this far. The difference between using energy for magic attacks and using energy for physical enhancement is as far apart is running is from punching. Being good at one does not automatically make you good at the other. Case in point: Hayate. Shit-tons of mana, chain-nuke spells that make Nanoha shuffle her feet, sucks worse than Caro in melee. Reason? No aptitude for it.
Using Hayate as an example is probably the most terrible way to prove this.

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Just because Curren is stronger than Vita in ranged piercing attacks does not mean she can replicate her hammer lift. That's physical strength and endurance.
Base Zest was capable of matching a Unison Vita and then kind of curbstomped her with his Full Drive, showing he was physically superior to her. Signum had a better showing against Zest. If someone is shown to be physically superior to Vita in striking (she has to use the same physical strength to lift and strike - endurance has little to do with it in the case), they have physically superiority to her in lifting and striking. There's no reason to believe otherwise.

It is agreed Subaru doesn't have anything to suggest she's as strong as the captains, am I right?

Last edited by VezSketch; 2012-06-23 at 12:22.
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Old 2012-06-23, 12:23   Link #240
Justin_Brett
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How does Cypha have the best Reacted showing compared to this two? You'd think that would be DeVille. Fortis might be better, too.

And Veyron had that claw thing, he wasn't grabbing Subaru with his bare hands and stopping her.

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None taken.

But what do you mean by "that story"? Why would it "explain it"?
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