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Old 2012-06-23, 17:11   Link #6321
Kaijo
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I think I finally figured it out... Aki has a real hard-on for seeing Signum and her device degraded. It's kinda like snuff porn to him!

Don't worry, Aki. In my fics, I will make sure Signum gets beat down often and regularly, and has her device broken every other chapter. Just for you!^^
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Old 2012-06-23, 17:15   Link #6322
bhl88
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lol Aki look at what you did... now everyone thinks Signum is M.
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Old 2012-06-23, 17:26   Link #6323
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I hope everyone eventually gets 5th generation versions of their devices. That's obviously happening, right? ... Right?
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Old 2012-06-23, 17:46   Link #6324
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Given how new weapons keep pouring in left and right? Yeah, probably.
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Old 2012-06-23, 17:57   Link #6325
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Schwertkreuz is hard to upgrade though
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Old 2012-06-23, 17:59   Link #6326
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The upgrade gives it an easier-to-pronounce name.
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Old 2012-06-23, 18:05   Link #6327
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Doubt it. They'd probably add a number XD (Schwertkreuzwei or something)
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Old 2012-06-23, 19:00   Link #6328
Justin_Brett
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I hope everyone eventually gets 5th generation versions of their devices. That's obviously happening, right? ... Right?
I actually hope not, because that would mean this entire subplot of Section Six needing to use different equipment was a waste of time.

Signum at least should get one, though, for thematic reasons.
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Old 2012-06-24, 11:40   Link #6329
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Well, it took me a bit more than i tought to come back but i'm here as promised. I see you guys had your fun with my previous posts so it's my turn now xD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
They are different, yes, but that doesn't automatically stop Signum from being a mage, with all the "because magic" that comes with it.
Which actually have very few to do with the functions of the AEC-Equipements. The other models already pointed very clearly the limitations AEC-equips have in comparission with actual devices. The AEC lack proper A.I., are manual for the most part, can't alter they mass like almost all devices do (Raising Heart's modes, Bardiche Zamber, Graf Eisen size changing abilities, Laevatein's chainsword lenght, etc...) not to mention the lacking of a "standby form" that allows for easy carry. The damage output is also lesser in most cases (AEC-Cleaver supported Karyuu Issen barely filled a bridge, comapre that with the one supported by Laevatein that covered probably over a mile radius with heavy destructive power).

The AEC's only shine because of Eclipse, whose Devices are in severe disadvantage against. In any other scenario the original devices are far superior to their AEC cunterparts. Proficiency with magical shields and barriers proved several times to be a great and dinamyc way to rise your defenses and even twist opponent attacks in a practical, fast way. The actual need of physical shields is a step back in the proficiency of the cast in battle. If Signum didn't used a shield in the past was simply because it was completely unnecessary. Shame on the plot for forcing the cast to take such limited options.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Can't link. Stuff's still raw, and forum policies means mods go "rawr" if I do. It's the page after the title page that has Caro riding on Fried. A lot of sword clashes going on there. And lots of chances? Cypha scored one glancing blow. One. Superficial and fully ignorable. That's less hits compared to the previous fight. Not more. Created an opening that ended with a chopped arm for Cypha too.
Because Laevatein breaks, compare. Using AEC-claver she's more open to hits, with Laevatein Signum is basically untouchable (at least by Cypha). Instead of giving her a weapon that makes her more vulnerable, why they don't simply upgrade Laevatein and retain the effectiveness of Signum's swordfight style? Or if replacing it for an AEC is unavoidable, why such a drastic change? Don't change something that works well already. Laevatein did a marvelous job against Cypha until it broke, just made something similar that can resist EC attacks and Signum will be ready to curbstomp people like always.

So ok, AEC-Cleaver have superior durability than base Laevatein, granted. Laevatein's DESIGN is still superior.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
And what kind of logic do you use that makes you say these swings are wider than what she usually does? Hell, if anything these swings are closer. I think you're wearing a heavy pair of nostalgia goggles here Aki.
Look the movie trailer and tell me those aren't fluid and powerfull strikes xD! And yeah, before you go "bleh, movie isn't cannon" Signum do had used Laevatien proficiently before, namely in her fights against Fate who is, you know, the fastest fighter in the series. I really doubt Signum would be even being able to keep up with her if her proficiency with Laevatein were as bad as you implied. Quite the contrary, i think Signum will be at a considerable disadvantage fighting someone like Fate with her AEC-Equipement.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
As for the scabbard being "effective" in swordfights... yeah. No. Just.... no. Scabbards are hollow, made out of materials not designed for swordfights, have no grips, no handguards, can easily be disarmed or outright destroyed.... they're improvised weaponry, and completely inferior to a tool actually designed for the purpose. If you ignore the entire arsenal samurai have (what? You thought a katana was the only thing they had?) samurai rarely rely on shields because the katana was mainly wielded as a two-handed weapon. And in the cases where they do need a side-arm, they carry a wakizashi. A weapon designed to be a side-arm, and thereby infinitely more reliable than a scabbard.
First you call me a fool for bringing using the world "real" and then try to slam me with a lesson of how real scabbards work xDU We're talking about Laevatein's magical Scabbard who works as a scabbard, a shield and even a second sword of sorts, all thanks to Signum and Laevatein's combined proficiency with defensive spells.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I have watched the chapter again. watch it every time I type here to double-check. I see a solid position with several slashes. That implies a high maneuverability of the sword to switch it's direction without moving position.
I guess it's in the eye of the beholder because what i've seen was a cornered Signum unable to do anything else than parrying, shooting and launch a linear slash, rinse and repeat. Quite different from their previous fight where Signum was swift, dinamyc and yeah, gracefull. Fencing around the battlefield and even ambushing Cypha. Quick and Agressive, insted to be clogged at the defensive.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
But yes, let's check the StrikerS manga again. First move, shiden issen. An iaido... with a straight blade. Uh, no. That'd lose effectiveness. Straight blades don't work like that. Only done because the creators are more familiar with samurai, and only works because of "because it does." Yeah, it's cool and effective plotwise, since you seem to enjoy hammering on the AEC weapons from a realistic point of view I fully intend to do the same. If nothing else, it might show you just how pointless it is to judge weapons in a magical girl show in a realistic way.
Yeah it works basically "because of magic", something AEC-equipements are uncapable of xDU. They work by themselves only using magic as a powersource. there's not much difference between Erio or Lily using a Strike Canno aside of the way the move with it.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Anyway, moving on. Slangenform. Lolmagic, followed by a scabbard block of one tiny shot which almost destroys the scabbard in the process. Deary me, if only she had a buckler or something.... Clash clash clash, vaguely drawn so no real juicy things here powering up and... what's this? A giant, two handed swing with an arc that goes almost 270 degrees? Truly, such "short and agile" swings this sword has. Got trapped, tanked the BEAM'O'DOOM! and fired an ARROW'O'DOOM in return, which got dodged. One last slash which we don't get to see, and fight's over.
The scabbard was enhaced with defensive magic, if that attack managed to damage the scabbard it will be a bad omen for the physical shield who will be barely stronger than Signum's original arm plates (that look cooler, by the way xD). As i've mentioned above, Signum's magical defenses are top tier and probably more durable than the buckler against non-EC powered attacks.

Again the only reason the AEC is needed is because plot says so xDU.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
So, in the end. Was the fight cool? Hell yes! Also, screw that draw bullshit. Signum was clearly in a better condition than eye-spinning, barely-forming-a-coherent-sentence Nanoha. Was the fight... better? More skilled? No, not really. Slow, giant arc swings, improvised weaponry, walking straight into the trap of a known snare-and-nuker? Yeah it looks cool and awesome, and don't get me wrong I love the fight. But to objectively call this fight better? Ehh... no. She basically did everything in the StrikerS chapter you accuse her of doing here.
Yet it worked better on that chapter. To Signum's defense Nanoha haven't shown before that "bind shield" spell, so maybe Nanoha indeed took Signum by surprise with that. As much as i love Signum i gave kudos to Nanoha when i saw that because she discovered an effective way to deal with a clear superior meele fighter, also kudos for Signum's magical defenses beign strong enough to tank a devastating new beam attack pointblank (good luck trying to block that with the "buckler" xDU), the barrier produced by the buckler shield under Agito's command didn't even lasted one single panel and in fact was one of the openings for Cypha to deal damage xDU. the first time Signum and Cypha fought it was clearly depicted Cypha won merely trough power, not skill, because she was hopelessly outmatched in that department. Kudos for Signum to still be able to fend off Cypha on their second fight while using such uncomfortable weaponry but by the looks of it, she's still getting used to it ans was clearly a more effective swordfighter while holding Laevatein.

and well i already answered the last part of that post so let's move on...

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Funny how that answer only works when it's in your favor.
What works for Keroko, works for me xD!

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
If a sword breaks in combat against another sword, it is not a superior sword. This isn't rocket science, and certainly not something new either. Raising heart and bardiche both got broken, then they were upgraded. Not just with cartridges, but reinforced frames as well.
Even if the broken sword did a better job than the newer one despite lack of durability? Well, it has been explained above already xD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
In short: "they changed it, now it sucks."
Give me some credit, i did research to make sure my claims aren't baseless. Unfortunately it will be impossble to get a duel between Laevatein and AEC-Cleaver to see what's the better weapon and the most suited to Signum's true fightstyle and spirit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I think I finally figured it out... Aki has a real hard-on for seeing Signum and her device degraded. It's kinda like snuff porn to him!
Only for lame Laevatein-wannabe imitations xD!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Don't worry, Aki. In my fics, I will make sure Signum gets beat down often and regularly, and has her device broken every other chapter. Just for you!^^
I'd love to see that ugly AEC-Clever & Shield being broken again and again, so thanks Kaijo xD

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Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
lol Aki look at what you did... now everyone thinks Signum is M.
Please, you're saying it as if that were something new. Seems to be the general conception of Signum here from a long time ago xDU All i did was opening a window for them to chat about that again xDU

Quote:
Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
I hope everyone eventually gets 5th generation versions of their devices. That's obviously happening, right? ... Right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Given how new weapons keep pouring in left and right? Yeah, probably.
I also hope for that. someone proposed a theory a couple of years ago about the AEC-Equipements beign only an experiment to test future upgrades to their real devices. We know already this isn't true but maybe the TSAB wises up and takes the results of the AEC to enahce the other devices just like they did to Bardiche.

Then they'll be suited up with their original powers for the final battle xD!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
Schwertkreuz is hard to upgrade though
Yup, i theorized the reason Hayate hasn't received an upgrade or AEC-Equipement yet is because it's simply a too difficult task to pull off just like that. Hayate's current Schertkrewz was created after 8 failed attempts of duplicating the original and was very hard to make a device that fits Hayate's magical nature which will make the applycation of the 5th Gen upgrade a dangerous step, they might end up destroying Schertkrewz ans thus leaving commander Hayate weapon-less. Maybe AEC-Equipements aren't suited to deal with Hayate's raw magical output yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
I actually hope not, because that would mean this entire subplot of Section Six needing to use different equipment was a waste of time.
It can be handwaved with the above theories. I just hope to see the old awesome device cast back in action xD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
Signum at least should get one, though, for thematic reasons.
According to the english translation of Ch. 20 Teana said Laevatein got installed countermeasures against Eclipse. So at the very least it will be cool if on their final encounter Cypha actually destroys Signum's AEC-Equipement so she neds up drawing Laevatein and ends up frying the tar out of her, true Signum style xD!
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Old 2012-06-24, 12:24   Link #6330
Keroko
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Yes, because using a karyuu issen that covers a mile radius is an excellent choice of attack in the middle of a city. -_- Mages are capable of narrowing the focus for their attacks without sacrificing power, y'know.

And I am quite aware that devices have functionality the AEC aren't capable of, thank you. Just as I'm aware that this does not go for all devices either. The swiss army knife has always been an advantage of the main casts devices, and indeed one the AEC lacks. Also, there's a great variety of situations in the series prior where Signum would have benefited from a shield, so regardless of your "I hate shields!" attitude, claiming that it is a step back is a falsehood. Magic can be cast without swords and wands as well, I guess that means all devices could just be reduced to necklaces and bracelets? It's circular logic, Aki. And it doesn't work.

But if you so desperately want me to compare, I will. And here's what I see: Long, wide cuts that leave Signum open as hell. You know, the kinds you keep complaining about, only twice as big. Also fun detail, Signum "dominating" was against an unreacted Cypha. That's like saying Signum was "dominating" an untransformed mage. Cute, but hardly comparable. And it cracked against an unreacted Cypha as well. Nope, not seeing the superiority here.

I looked at the movie trailers, and even putting aside that the movies have a habit of cranking the powerscale up to 11 (seriously, movie 1 nanoha and Fate blow S1 Nanoha and Fate out of the water in all aspects) I stand by my claim. I still see the long, wide swings. Swings which you yourself claim are so terrible with the AEC. Yes, they are a bit faster than A's in this trailer, but I still fail to see how these swings are... superior to the fight in the manga. And what logic you use to come to that conclusion.

And I warned you, didn't I? I warned you not to get me started on actual weapon use. But no, you decide to slam the AEC on realism. Fine. But you don't get to claim the grass is only green on your side. You slam the AEC on realism standpoints, I slam laevateine on realism standpoints. Fair's fair. No double standards.

If you want to use "but magic" as an excuse, stop ignoring that Signum is still a mage regardless of her equipment and that the AEC uses magical technobable to do what they do. Signum can still enhance her EAC equipment with magic, because that's a magical skill, as defined in the StrikerS manga.

And Aki? I've stopped giving you credit. Your bias shines through every single post and gets worse the deeper we get into a discussion. You ignore evidence, use double standards and hyperbole with what you present as valid, and even completely changed stances on an issue just to avoid admitting you were wrong, and then tried to keep acting as if that was always your opinion!

No Aki, credit is something I can no longer give you.
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Old 2012-06-24, 12:38   Link #6331
VezSketch
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
(seriously, movie 1 nanoha and Fate blow S1 Nanoha and Fate out of the water in all aspects
I used to think the same, but this actually isn't true - flashier, yes. Stronger, no. Divine Buster and Thunder Smasher went through Garden of Time and pulverized the volume of rock (majority of the material destroyed, estimations have GoT being enormous - kilometers in size - and it dwarfs Arthra), Divine Buster AOE variant also covered tens of kilometers and it's no stronger than the narrow beam version. Those feats mean those attacks have more than enough power to destroy a city. I just wanted to point that out.

Kinda going off topic, though. S1 and S2 just kind of have ridiculous feats happening.
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Old 2012-06-24, 13:22   Link #6332
Akiyoshi
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Yes, because using a karyuu issen that covers a mile radius is an excellent choice of attack in the middle of a city. -_- Mages are capable of narrowing the focus for their attacks without sacrificing power, y'know.
Wonder if that apply to AEC-Equipement as well xDU

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
And I am quite aware that devices have functionality the AEC aren't capable of, thank you. Just as I'm aware that this does not go for all devices either. The swiss army knife has always been an advantage of the main casts devices, and indeed one the AEC lacks. Also, there's a great variety of situations in the series prior where Signum would have benefited from a shield, so regardless of your "I hate shields!" attitude, claiming that it is a step back is a falsehood. Magic can be cast without swords and wands as well, I guess that means all devices could just be reduced to necklaces and bracelets? It's circular logic, Aki. And it doesn't work.
That would be true if Signum was a bombardement mage or able to cast an energy sword entirely made of magic, and so far, we know that's not the case. Panzerschild and Panzergeist can cover very efficiently whatever need for a shield Signum might have while fighting any non-EC Driver opponent. Demonstrated several times with great proficency, part as of why she was renowed as a lightning bruiser was the fact she's fast, strong AND durable.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
But if you so desperately want me to compare, I will. And here's what I see: Long, wide cuts that leave Signum open as hell. You know, the kinds you keep complaining about, only twice as big. Also fun detail, Signum "dominating" was against an unreacted Cypha. That's like saying Signum was "dominating" an untransformed mage. Cute, but hardly comparable. And it cracked against an unreacted Cypha as well. Nope, not seeing the superiority here.
Lol, i wonder what's the oppoesite of nostalgia googles because i think you're giving too much credit to the AEC-Cleaver here. I've also seen the chapter several times just to be sure and i can see the long linear slashes Signum uses against Cypha. At least she can move Laevatien more freely and can actually do something resembling to fencing instead of just hammer the cleaver against everything like she did in Ch. 24. Doing it from a standign point just depicts how limited her mobility is now in comparission with before.

Cypha's body and divider are enhaced with reacting but not her skills (unless her brain gets somehow smarter which doesn't have any evidence yet). Cypha was unable to match Signum in skill so she goes full reacted and destroyed her without any skill whatsoever. And last, an EC Driver isn't equal to an "unstranformed mage" by any means. Unreacted Dividers are very capable of offensive and powerfull attacks unlike standby form devices, Cypha was already wearing her combat clothing and her body is still very hard in that state. So no, i don't buy that argument. EC Drivers are dangerous for a reason, they're very pwoerfull even unreacted. There's a reason as of why Veryon is considered one of the most Badass members of the family.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I looked at the movie trailers, and even putting aside that the movies have a habit of cranking the powerscale up to 11 (seriously, movie 1 nanoha and Fate blow S1 Nanoha and Fate out of the water in all aspects) I stand by my claim. I still see the long, wide swings. Swings which you yourself claim are so terrible with the AEC. Yes, they are a bit faster than A's in this trailer, but I still fail to see how these swings are... superior to the fight in the manga. And what logic you use to come to that conclusion.
The fact she managed to use those same moves to fight efficiently someone clearly fast and probably more skilled than Cypha in a rapid-fire exchange of blows perhaps? I doubt AEC-Cleaver ould do such a thing, against Fate with that thing probably the better option Signum could do is to act like a Stone Wall and wait for an oportunity to smack Fate with the giant cleaver but it will require perfect timing and will be unnecesailly more difficult than fighting her using Laevatein. I'll go back to my main point. AEC-Cleaver/shield are only good for EC-Battles, for everything else: There's Laevatein xD!

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
And I warned you, didn't I? I warned you not to get me started on actual weapon use. But no, you decide to slam the AEC on realism. Fine. But you don't get to claim the grass is only green on your side. You slam the AEC on realism standpoints, I slam laevateine on realism standpoints. Fair's fair. No double standards.
Except Laevatein is not bound by the rules of realism while AEC-Cleaver is, at least to a much bigger degree. I don't deny the weapon can be used efficiently, i just say Laevatein is much more efficient and better adapted to Signum's fightstyle. Wonder if Signum ever will follow your logic and say "wow! this AEC-Equipement is so much better than Laevatein in every way", i dare Tsuzuki to make her say that.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
If you want to use "but magic" as an excuse, stop ignoring that Signum is still a mage regardless of her equipment and that the AEC uses magical technobable to do what they do. Signum can still enhance her EAC equipment with magic, because that's a magical skill, as defined in the StrikerS manga.
And i invite you to stop assuming an AEC-Equipement can be enhaced the same way as a device cause that's not true. The best thing Signum can do is to put her magical output for the device perform it's tricks faster and stronger but it does nothing for durability. At least not as a passive ability as we see Agito having to manually activate the shield's barrier function. The entire point of the series is that Magcial skills are now less useful, even with the upgrades. In fact, the only thing the upgrades help with is for their magic to be of some use at all, albeit quite nerfed from the real deal.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
And Aki? I've stopped giving you credit. Your bias shines through every single post and gets worse the deeper we get into a discussion. You ignore evidence, use double standards and hyperbole with what you present as valid, and even completely changed stances on an issue just to avoid admitting you were wrong, and then tried to keep acting as if that was always your opinion!

No Aki, credit is something I can no longer give you.
I've admitted since the beginning i'm biased towards Force and specifically towards Signum's portrayal on it (i didn't even hate Cypha now, i just see her as an annoyance) but being biased doesn't impede me from seeing details and stablishing arguments around them. I take evidence and examine it instead of swallowing it immediately as facts, then respond according to my conclussions.

I see equal insistence on you to discredit any and every single piece of info i dropped here regarding the AEC-Cleaver/shield discussion, i see you're really enamoured of shields and hold your own opinions about them so i think we could stop here, but i really enjoy debating with people who made an effort to present well-ordered arguments so if you want to continue i'll follow suit xD

You're right about one thing, tough. I'm here to express my opinion and expose my arguments over thinks i deem worthy of discussion, not to gather popularity or expect everyone to agree with my standpoint. So here are my views on the matter. Hope someone finds the reading interesting xD

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Originally Posted by VezSketch View Post
I used to think the same, but this actually isn't true - flashier, yes. Stronger, no. Divine Buster and Thunder Smasher went through Garden of Time and pulverized the volume of rock (majority of the material destroyed, estimations have GoT being enormous - kilometers in size - and it dwarfs Arthra), Divine Buster AOE variant also covered tens of kilometers and it's no stronger than the narrow beam version. Those feats mean those attacks have more than enough power to destroy a city. I just wanted to point that out.

Kinda going off topic, though. S1 and S2 just kind of have ridiculous feats happening.
I kind of agree with this. MOVIE-verse powers tend to be more flashier but are roguhly the same in power as the originals. Altough, i think Divine Buster and Thunder Smasher could only destroy a small town at best, not a full city (unless boosted by Blaster-3 perhaps xD). S1 is a very unrealiable source to scale and compare feats because the strenght of the characters keeps fluctuating from one episode to another. It's actually understandable because the series was still being defined at the moment and the staff has been deciding how to stablish the strenght of characters, we saw a more refined scale in A's. For example, the first use of Divine Buster wasn't even as an attack spell, just a long range sealing method for jewel seed that doesn't cause any damage at all (i declare the Jewel Seed-Tree episode of S1 as the most boring episode of the franchise, i almost felt asleep the first time i saw it, i swear xDU).

At the settled scale the basic Divine Buster is an excellent anti-personel spell with very strong destructive force that can also be used as an anti-structure or even anti-building attack. The bigger the power up Nanoha uses the bigger the destructive power and area becomes.
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Old 2012-06-24, 13:35   Link #6333
VezSketch
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
I kind of agree with this. MOVIE-verse powers tend to be more flashier but are roguhly the same in power as the originals. Altough, i think Divine Buster and Thunder Smasher could only destroy a small town at best, not a full city (unless boosted by Blaster-3 perhaps xD). S1 is a very unrealiable source to scale and compare feats because the strenght of the characters keeps fluctuating from one episode to another. It's actually understandable because the series was still being defined at the moment and the staff has been deciding how to stablish the strenght of characters, we saw a more refined scale in A's. For example, the first use of Divine Buster wasn't even as an attack spell, just a long range sealing method for jewel seed that doesn't cause any damage at all (i declare the Jewel Seed-Tree episode of S1 as the most boring episode of the franchise, i almost felt asleep the first time i saw it, i swear xDU).

At the settled scale the basic Divine Buster is an excellent anti-personel spell with very strong destructive force that can also be used as an anti-structure or even anti-building attack. The bigger the power up Nanoha uses the bigger the destructive power and area becomes.
You can't write off direct feats as inconsistencies because they do not mesh with your idea of a series, especially when they happened towards the end of the season. Even the kinetic energy of a blast from Arf was more than enough to destroy a small town several times over. Nanoha also sealed a energy source that supported a multi-dimensional earthquake (was Lindy helping out when she did that, or was she done?) with something that wasn't even one of her stronger attacks. AAA and above mages just happen to be ridiculously powerful.

S2 even has more ridiculous things - Chrono freezing the ocean far past the horizon (dozens of kilometers) and then the combined attacks of Hayate, Nanoha, and Fate melting that ice entirely. Then you have this, an explosion with a size comparable to TSAB headquarters that was suppressed by a barrier. That's S Rank magic (besides Eternal Coffin) ... In StrikerS, Exelion Buster could match a S+ Rank attack in an AMF without the blaster system. Small town is kind of an understatement.

Last edited by VezSketch; 2012-06-24 at 13:50.
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Old 2012-06-24, 21:37   Link #6334
Meltyred
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I haven't been reading in a long time, but according the the CH tranlation I read, Signum apparently makes Cypha run away, leaving behind a chopped arm.
So Signum wins.
Yay.
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Old 2012-06-25, 10:16   Link #6335
Akiyoshi
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I'll be wary of calling that a "victory" yet. Cypha left the field when she had the bigger advantage. That is Signum having her usefull AEC-Shield destroyed, left only with a Sword Cypha can easily dodge and counter-attack and Agito who can only annoy/distract Cypha a little on the outside, she seems to be more usefull on the inside where she can enhace Signum's raw mana output and also seems to compensate Signum's lack of durability somewhat (internal healing?). Cypha's only lost? an arm she can easily regrow.

Signum did well against Cypha, specially considering all the physical and teechnical disadvantages but the fight was left unconclusive as Signum wasn't able to achieve her goal (capturing Cypha) nor able to deal the descicive strike like Cypha did on their previous fight. Back then Cypha left the field victorious with Signum lying on a pool of her own blood, now Cypha gracefully fleed the battle almost in one piece while Signum failed her assignment ....again.

Signum more likely will have a chance to finally settle the scores with Cypha by scoring a non-ambiguous and desicive victory over her.
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Old 2012-06-25, 10:27   Link #6336
Koveras Alvane
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You see, Meltyred, delusions are like good whiskey -- they only grow stronger with age. :3
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Old 2012-06-25, 11:10   Link #6337
Keroko
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I, for one, am very curious what Aki considers a 'non-ambigious victory.'
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Old 2012-06-25, 11:11   Link #6338
Akiyoshi
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A one where the opponent is clearly defeated and in no condition to fight back ...you know, like any descicive victory xD?

You can say Signum "won" if you want but Cypha wasn't "defeated" xDU
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Old 2012-06-25, 11:36   Link #6339
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When your enemy is forced to retreat because they can't beat you, that's a defeat. Not all victories end with the enemy dead.
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Old 2012-06-25, 11:56   Link #6340
Akiyoshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
When your enemy is forced to retreat because they can't beat you, that's a defeat. Not all victories end with the enemy dead.
Except Cypha wasn't forced to retreat because of that xD. She wanted to leave the place from the beginning, it was Signum the one who jumped on her at the last moment. A chopped arm isn't a hindrance to Cypha to continue on the battle while the loss of the shooting buckler is a big one for Signum. If your opponent is in better dondition to fight than you and leaves just because they want that was hardly considered a "defeat" xD

A "loss" and a "defeat" are similar but not the same. A defeated opponent is the one who was clearly submited by the winner and who is in no condition to fight back whatsoever, be by being dead, uncouncsious or simply too beaten to continue. And Cypha still doesn't fall on that category.

As i've said you can call this a "win" by using technicisms. But is like saying one boxer is better than another just because the other was in a hurry to go to the bathroom and leaves the fight xDU. Signum "won" without actually defeating Cypha, that only happen when she manages to conquer her opponent in an decisive way that cannot be questioned.

I could call Signum a cheater herself for using equipement specifically desgned to fight Cypha's kind and ganging up on her with Agito but i refrain myself to go deeper into that train of tought because it's superfluous.
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