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Old 2012-06-22, 09:15   Link #61
james0246
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More seriously it didn't work for you which I can relate to since I also think it's plain bullshit but that's how you're supposed to take the story.
I don't mind the whole 'loving-you-despite-being-a-homicidal-maniac' schtick Kishimoto is using with Itachi and Sasuke (and the Uchiha Clan in general). It's a little trite, but still understandable. What truly annoys me, though, is the fact that Fugaku said he was "proud" of Itachi.

I see no way Fugaku could be proud of Itachi. You can love your monstrous other, but to be proud of them means you accept and potentially even support their actions. Fugaku and company were staging a revolt. They wanted something (power? freedom? Hanabi?) so desperately that they were willing to almost destroy the world (as we know it) in the process. Anyone with that mindset could never be proud of anyone that stood against them. You could potentially respect your opponents dedication or zeal (etc), but to be proud of them does not make sense.

Note, this could be a translation error, in which case I blame the translator not Kishimoto...
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Old 2012-06-22, 11:14   Link #62
Ero-Senn1n
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I had a thought about the whole argument "Why the heck didn't Itachi's parents defend themselves" thing.
Why do you think they didn't defend themseves? The mother's eyes looked like she was hit by a genjutsu and blocked like Orochimaru was.

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I doubt if Itachi and Shisui could kill Danzou and Hiruzen at that stage anyway, and the rest of the Uchiha aren't even comparable to Madara's generation of Uchiha. No doubt Tobi would also appear to screw things up for both sides.
You doubt that they can kill 4 old men but you don't doubt that Itachi can kill the whole Uchiha clan, that he can easily defeat Orochimaru with one genjutsu, that Itachi's susano's Totsuka sword can easily seal anyone's soul. Furthermore we know that Shisui could have used his eyes to manipulate both Danzou and Hiruzen to do what he wants, one MS eye jutsu for each of them. The power of Shisui's eye and Itachi's eye saved the 5 kages from Madara, the power of izanagi and izanami both could have been used against the elders. So the question is not if these two could have killed or controlled the 4 elders but why were they so loyal to these shitty elders instead of their own clan.
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Old 2012-06-22, 11:29   Link #63
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I don't mind the whole 'loving-you-despite-being-a-homicidal-maniac' schtick Kishimoto is using with Itachi and Sasuke (and the Uchiha Clan in general). It's a little trite, but still understandable. What truly annoys me, though, is the fact that Fugaku said he was "proud" of Itachi.

I see no way Fugaku could be proud of Itachi. You can love your monstrous other, but to be proud of them means you accept and potentially even support their actions. Fugaku and company were staging a revolt. They wanted something (power? freedom? Hanabi?) so desperately that they were willing to almost destroy the world (as we know it) in the process. Anyone with that mindset could never be proud of anyone that stood against them. You could potentially respect your opponents dedication or zeal (etc), but to be proud of them does not make sense.

Note, this could be a translation error, in which case I blame the translator not Kishimoto...
Heh. It wasn't what stood out the most to me (I was probably enjoying too much the fact that his dad's last wish was for Itachi to take care of Sasuke) but thinking about it you're quite right. I can see it animated already, an Evangelion end-like bit with a bunch of dead babies and relatives all around Itachi praising him and telling him they're proud of him -or trying to as blood oozes and bubbles out of their slashed throats.
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Old 2012-06-22, 13:06   Link #64
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good chapt but i just expected more of a bombshell this week. i noticed that many ppl dont talk about the fact that the coup was in many ways konohas fault, think about it . the village blamed the uchiha for the nine tails attack by madara. the uchiha as a clan had nothing to do with it, and yet they are blamed. i also sense that because madara is a uchiha its ok to blame the clan itself. what was the clan to do they saw how the village was treating them, and after they were put away so to speak, they saw the writing on the wall that sooner or later the village was comeing after them(esp after the nine tails attack .this is the ninja world we are talking about and the uchiha knew how the village deals with problems. were they to sit around and wait to be gutted, they had a right to defend themselves against a village that thought them guilty of a attack (nine tails) of which they were blameless.

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Old 2012-06-22, 13:41   Link #65
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good chapt but i just expected more of a bombshell this week. i noticed that many ppl dont talk about the fact that the coup was in many ways konohas fault, think about it . the village blamed the uchiha for the nine tails attack by madara. the uchiha as a clan had nothing to do with it, and yet they are blamed. i also sense that because madara is a uchiha its ok to blame the clan itself. what was the clan to do they saw how the village was treating them, and after they were put away so to speak, they saw the writing on the wall that sooner or later the village was comeing after them(esp after the nine tails attack .this is the ninja world we are talking about and the uchiha knew how the village deals with problems. were they to sit around and wait to be gutted, they had a right to defend themselves against a village that thought them guilty of a attack (nine tails) of which they were blameless.
The village didn't blame the Uchiha, even after the massacre the Uchiha name was praised by the villagers, and Itachi was the villain that they were trying to kill for what he did. This was a political issue, Sasuke and other commoners didn't feel anything of that, you see how the girls in Sasuke's class all wanted to be with him. And we see that they were still the police force of Konoha, that was not taken away from them. We could also say that it is a plot hole that Kishimoto doesn't show what did they exactly lose. What we know from Danzou's flashback is that there was one Uchiha among the now elders when they were young (and a fat guy, i guess it someone from Choji's clan). But in present time there is no Uchiha in the village leadership. Tobi also said that they were given the police force, and at present time it seems they still had that. Also Itachi was in the ANBU and also trusted by the elders so much that they even told him their plan of ambushing the Uchiha. That's total trust, Itachi could have told this to his clan and they could have ambushed the elders before the ANBU can act. So the whole thing is messed up if you analyze it too deeply.

You assume that the village would "gut" them, but there was no sign of that, they never knew that Itachi was spying on them and based on that the village knew about what were they planning. If the village didn't know about their plans there would be no reason to kill them. And if the village doesn't plan to kill them then why attack the village? They had no right to attack the village, they could have just left the village and offered their power to another village or take over a smaller village like Orochimaru did.
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Old 2012-06-22, 13:52   Link #66
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And if the village doesn't plan to kill them then why attack the village? They had no right to attack the village, they could have just left the village and offered their power to another village or take over a smaller village like Orochimaru did.
the uchiha founded konoha on a partnership with the senju, but all the leadership kept being mostly of senju or at least non-uchiha descent including all 5 kage and that unbalanced ratio kept getting greater to the point of the uchiha not even having a village advisor. i think the uchiha had every right to plan a coup and take back power in a village that was founded on their strength and sacrifice
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Old 2012-06-22, 14:47   Link #67
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the uchiha founded konoha on a partnership with the senju, but all the leadership kept being mostly of senju or at least non-uchiha descent including all 5 kage and that unbalanced ratio kept getting greater to the point of the uchiha not even having a village advisor. i think the uchiha had every right to plan a coup and take back power in a village that was founded on their strength and sacrifice
Personally, despite my sympathies for the Uchiha Clan, I thought the approach they took was ass-backwards and doomed from the start. There was seemingly no real discussion (beyond Sarutobi's attempt), and there was no real planning beyond 'kill all'. Kishimoto went out of his way to make the situation seem all kinds of 'shades of grey', but in the end both sides of the equation were written to be blindingly stupid (which directly limits my sympathy for either side). Where were the Uchiha that would propose a strike? Where were the Uchiha that would propose simply leaving the village? Etc. I think a far more compelling story could have been told about the Uchiha Clan deciding to simply leave the village, and Danzou deciding to kill them because of that. Sadly, this limits the potential 'shades of grey', making Konoha look even worse, so instead we get the current slap-dash effort that makes little sense and it very insulting to both the reader and the characters involved (Fugaku: "Itachi, I'm proud you're going to betray and kill me and everyone you know and love...Oh yeah, make sure to take care of Sasuke afterwards by (constantly) mentally raping him and then endlessly abusing his psyche. I know you love him after all...")
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Old 2012-06-22, 15:46   Link #68
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the uchiha founded konoha on a partnership with the senju, but all the leadership kept being mostly of senju or at least non-uchiha descent including all 5 kage and that unbalanced ratio kept getting greater to the point of the uchiha not even having a village advisor. i think the uchiha had every right to plan a coup and take back power in a village that was founded on their strength and sacrifice
The 5 kages were not Senju, the 3rd was not Senju and he ruled for most of the time. The Senju doesn't even exist any more, and i think that should be explained by Kishimoto, i mean where the hell did the leading clan disappear. Maybe the Senju were killed and the Uchiha are blamed for that also? So we don't know why the Uchiha had not village advisor, but that was also true for the Senju too, that's not an evidence of any discrimination. Also if you think about it the "will of fire" inherited from the 1st hokage cannot include something like the 2 founding clans having any more rights than the other clans. Why would the Senju or Uchiha have more rights than the Hyuuga? Such a discrimination would just alienate other great clans and weaken the village. Just because the currently leading elders had secretly weakened the Uchiha's influence over the village because they didn't trust them it doesn't mean that the Uchiha had any right to attack the village. It was a political issue that any sane person has to solve in a political way, that is talking and such, and that is what Sarutobi tried to do. But both the Uchiha leadership and Danzou were complete idiots and instead of letting time solve the problems (time = elders die, new village leaders let Uchiha back into the leadership). In any case causing a civil war and even a world war is simply stupid and it's a betrayal of the village. But we don't know the reasons yet, Kishimoto could decide to add more reason for why Itachi's father decided to revolt. One of the reasons could be that Danzou stole Shisui's eye, that's an outrageously evil act from a leader. Then there was also Tobi who probably messed up things, he surely wanted to escalate the tension between Uchiha and the village and he is smart enough to act from the shadows. He once mind controlled the mizukage too, so taking that into account we can assume he created evidence against the Uchiha to cause civil war. Itachi's flashback was mainly centered on brotherly love and Itachi's great sacrifice, so i expect the parts of the story related to Tobi will be shown in a later flashback.
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Old 2012-06-22, 17:34   Link #69
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..he ripped out his own freakin eye and didn't even flinch x_x
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Old 2012-06-22, 18:31   Link #70
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The 5 kages were not Senju, the 3rd was not Senju and he ruled for most of the time. The Senju doesn't even exist any more, and i think that should be explained by Kishimoto, i mean where the hell did the leading clan disappear.
The problem isn't that the Senju disappeared, it's that they never appareared in the first place. They obviously came as an afterthought in part 2 and were badly -or in fact not at all- implemented by the author. If it wasn't for Tobi we wouldn't even know they existed. Which obviously cause many problem story-wise.
As far as the reason for the rebellion I'm always surprised how the fact that the Uchiha were told to live in a compound at the outskirt of the village is completely overlooked as something not that important. There is a reason why population transfer is considered both a war crime and a crime against humanity now. Isolating a segment of a population is almost always the first move before pogrom and genocide. This decision alone justifies open revolt (althought there is no denying the Uchiha went about it so badly it's ridiculous).

In the other hand James I don't think just leaving was a realistic option. Without even going into the feasibility of deserting en masse Konoha it's not like they hadn't been at war with the rest of the world for generations. The idea that they had somehow a better chance in the foreign villages they had been fighting forever than in their own doesn't make much sense.
Secondly why would they leave in the first place? Konoha was their home, it makes more sense to overthrow the government screwing with you than taking your chance with your ennemies as your ex-comrades track you down.
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Old 2012-06-23, 00:21   Link #71
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Why do you think they didn't defend themseves? The mother's eyes looked like she was hit by a genjutsu and blocked like Orochimaru was.
Lol, THAT DIDN'T EVEN OCCUR TO ME! Ero Sennin for the WIN!
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Old 2012-06-23, 00:53   Link #72
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In the other hand James I don't think just leaving was a realistic option. Without even going into the feasibility of deserting en masse Konoha it's not like they hadn't been at war with the rest of the world for generations. The idea that they had somehow a better chance in the foreign villages they had been fighting forever than in their own doesn't make much sense.
Secondly why would they leave in the first place? Konoha was their home, it makes more sense to overthrow the government screwing with you than taking your chance with your ennemies as your ex-comrades track you down.
My brief rhetorical question was more a complaint/criticism of the overall thought process of the Uchiha clan (and what they could do) rather than a specific example of what the Uchiha should have done.

That being said, considering that Orochimaru was able to create his own hidden villiage seemingly overnight, I don't see what prevented the Uchiha from doing something similar. Or, maybe they could have petitioned the Daimyo to become Royal guards. Or, they could have simply gone on strike, forcing Konoha to either kill them needlessly, or actually discuss the problem (I find it hard to believe that some Yamanaka's couldn't mindfuck the Uchiha clan to find out their involvement in the Kyuubi incident...and if the Uchiha were too proud to accept this level of inquiry, then they were even bigger idiots than I imagined).

Whatever the case, the options chosen by all involved was simply asinine, and I sincerely wish that there could have been some actually discussion of the various possibilities in determining why war was the better option.
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Old 2012-06-23, 02:26   Link #73
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You doubt that they can kill 4 old men but you don't doubt that Itachi can kill the whole Uchiha clan, that he can easily defeat Orochimaru with one genjutsu, that Itachi's susano's Totsuka sword can easily seal anyone's soul. Furthermore we know that Shisui could have used his eyes to manipulate both Danzou and Hiruzen to do what he wants, one MS eye jutsu for each of them. The power of Shisui's eye and Itachi's eye saved the 5 kages from Madara, the power of izanagi and izanami both could have been used against the elders. So the question is not if these two could have killed or controlled the 4 elders but why were they so loyal to these shitty elders instead of their own clan.
This is the biggest flaw in the story imo... Itachi is probably the strongest within konoha village, even surpassing the likes of hiruzen and jiraiya.. At least based on what we've seen of their skill/power display, both of them are not a match to itachi full strength..

I don't think, if there is a civil war, uchiha clan would lose because itachi alone is already a bad ass powerful ninja.. The shitty reason of trying to protect sasuke is a farce because there is other way to do that.. Plus, leaving sasuke in a tiger den is so much for trying to protect him eh??


The only explanation here is that the whole uchiha clan is EVIL, no other reason for itachi not to side with them if they're not evil.. makes no sense..
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Old 2012-06-23, 02:43   Link #74
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This is the biggest flaw in the story imo... Itachi is probably the strongest within konoha village, even surpassing the likes of hiruzen and jiraiya.. At least based on what we've seen of their skill/power display, both of them are not a match to itachi full strength..

I don't think, if there is a civil war, uchiha clan would lose because itachi alone is already a bad ass powerful ninja.. The shitty reason of trying to protect sasuke is a farce because there is other way to do that.. Plus, leaving sasuke in a tiger den is so much for trying to protect him eh??


The only explanation here is that the whole uchiha clan is EVIL, no other reason for itachi not to side with them if they're not evil.. makes no sense..
Even if Itachi did help the uchiha and the Uchiha did win, one thing you did not take into account is the fact that the civil war would leave Kohona weakened and that could trigger a ninja war. THAT was itachi's biggest fear, not who would win or loose, but that the other villages would look at kohona's civil war as a chance to take over and thus start up a new war.
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Old 2012-06-23, 03:31   Link #75
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I can adhere the whole story in Naruto except the Uchiha massacre
Why confiding the mission to one ninja when facing an entire clan. What if that fails? The Uchiha will revolt immediately. What were Danzo thinking when taking this decision?
Balancing the survive of his brother and the massacre of the whole family, if I were Itachi, I would have fleed after kidnapping Sasuke, if what matters was Sasuke to survive.

Why would Tobi agree to kill the Uchihas? We know he is not Madara. He does not have really a reason.

Why would Itachi try to negotiate a deal with Tobi? It is a random dude he met for the first time. He is so suspicious, I would not trust him to keep his word especially letting the village safe.

Well, now it is over and there are other interesting things to know.

PS: if he killed the parents when they were kneeling down, I don't understand how the bodies are disposed like that

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Old 2012-06-23, 04:23   Link #76
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The problem isn't that the Senju disappeared, it's that they never appareared in the first place. They obviously came as an afterthought in part 2 and were badly -or in fact not at all- implemented by the author. If it wasn't for Tobi we wouldn't even know they existed. Which obviously cause many problem story-wise.
The author could defend that by saying that it happened so long ago that we have so small information about that age that he could add a lot of Senju stuff if necessary. But i agree with you, having the 1st and 2nd hokages Senju simply isn't enough. Also i didn't complain about the lack of Senju because there was also a lack of Uchiha, so that the author can't even properly explain what rights did the Uchiha lose (not counting that they were relocated to another place). When the 2nd hokage dies the 6 guys who are supposed to be the next ruling generation have 1 Uchiha but no Senju. Many chapters ago my assumption was that Tobi (who i thought was Madara) was responsible for killing the Senju, acting from the shadows in the ninja world wars. I mean why did the 1st hokage die at a young age, he beat Madara and it was explained by Madara to the current 5 kages that there's a huge difference in power level. Now we know that the 1st could even regenerate his body from wounds, so who the hell did have the power to kill him, and as kage he wasn't even fighting alone like Madara. The author made one picture of the Senju clan, the leader standing in the front is Hashirama, then we see some interestingly looking people in the back, i remember a kunoichi too. Based on that picture it seemed like Kishi is considering to create some characters and story for the Senju too. Maybe he dropped the idea...

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As far as the reason for the rebellion I'm always surprised how the fact that the Uchiha were told to live in a compound at the outskirt of the village is completely overlooked as something not that important. There is a reason why population transfer is considered both a war crime and a crime against humanity now. Isolating a segment of a population is almost always the first move before pogrom and genocide. This decision alone justifies open revolt (althought there is no denying the Uchiha went about it so badly it's ridiculous).
This should be all true, but when we see the flashbacks and the beginning of the manga, there is no sign of discrimination against the Uchiha, ordinary villagers are not aware of anything. In our world when such things happen there's also strong propaganda against the minority so that the majority population would blame them for something and hate them. And if they are not trusted they definitely couldn't bee the police force of the village.
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Old 2012-06-23, 10:51   Link #77
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Even if Itachi did help the uchiha and the Uchiha did win, one thing you did not take into account is the fact that the civil war would leave Kohona weakened and that could trigger a ninja war. THAT was itachi's biggest fear, not who would win or loose, but that the other villages would look at kohona's civil war as a chance to take over and thus start up a new war.
Konoha weakened? There are countless of times when konoha weakened, the sarutobi death, the pain invasion etc, nothing happened.. if itachi so much loves the village, he wouldn't have let that happened..

We're talking about 2 men annihilate the entire uchiha clan here, it's either those 2 men are super duper powerful or the 'uchiha clan' is super lame and the former is more likely.. it's a matter of which side they choose and the one they choose will be pretty much harmless..

if ya think konoha side would be able to put much of a fight against uchiha clan especially with itachi on their side then we see things differently..

It's easy, siding with konoha, itachi picks tobi, siding with the clan, itachi can pick orochimaru who we saw weakened konoha to a pretty bad shape himself..

if uchiha clan is trying to stage coup d etat then I fail to see how's that too evil.. they just wanted to take control and in the contrary konoha wanted to annihilate ALL OF THEM including the unknowing children.. who's evil now?? not too mention they did it in the manner of asking uchiha own clan to do it.. wow..
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Old 2012-06-23, 10:56   Link #78
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The village didn't blame the Uchiha, even after the massacre the Uchiha name was praised by the villagers, and Itachi was the villain that they were trying to kill for what he did. This was a political issue, Sasuke and other commoners didn't feel anything of that, you see how the girls in Sasuke's class all wanted to be with him. And we see that they were still the police force of Konoha, that was not taken away from them. We could also say that it is a plot hole that Kishimoto doesn't show what did they exactly lose. What we know from Danzou's flashback is that there was one Uchiha among the now elders when they were young (and a fat guy, i guess it someone from Choji's clan). But in present time there is no Uchiha in the village leadership. Tobi also said that they were given the police force, and at present time it seems they still had that. Also Itachi was in the ANBU and also trusted by the elders so much that they even told him their plan of ambushing the Uchiha. That's total trust, Itachi could have told this to his clan and they could have ambushed the elders before the ANBU can act. So the whole thing is messed up if you analyze it too deeply.

You assume that the village would "gut" them, but there was no sign of that, they never knew that Itachi was spying on them and based on that the village knew about what were they planning. If the village didn't know about their plans there would be no reason to kill them. And if the village doesn't plan to kill them then why attack the village? They had no right to attack the village, they could have just left the village and offered their power to another village or take over a smaller village like Orochimaru did.
ok as far as the uchiha being given the police force duties, that meant nothing. wasnt it stated that that was given to them as a means to spy on them, in other words it wasnt given to them out of honor and respect, also it was a cheap attempt to calm them because they were not given a place on the leadership board (thats messed up when you have a clan that hand in hand help you create the village). now about your comment about leaving the village, who does that and lives. no one esp a powerful clan like the uchiha is going to just walk out on the village, i think the reason much of the info was kept secret is for clan control. the villiage didnt want other powerful clans who down the road may feel wronged to plan a coup. it feels to me that you as a clan are just supposed to take it and not do anything(danzo all but said that to sasuke during there fight) this ideal of a all about the village and your clan be damned is not going to cut it for people like sasuke. the village has to change it views a bit or more haterd is going to be a result of it.
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Old 2012-06-23, 14:47   Link #79
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ok as far as the uchiha being given the police force duties, that meant nothing. wasnt it stated that that was given to them as a means to spy on them, in other words it wasnt given to them out of honor and respect, also it was a cheap attempt to calm them because they were not given a place on the leadership board (thats messed up when you have a clan that hand in hand help you create the village).
They were given the police force because they weren't trusted enough to be in the ANBU, that is around the hokage. Nobody spied on them. And having the police force is a nice gift anyway. The Uchiha had almost no problem with the village before the kyuubi-attack which was done by Tobi. The situation you describe was created by Tobi's and Danzou's actions.
And as i already wrote earlier there is no reason to give the Uchiha some fixed place in the leadership just because they are the Uchiha. Having priviledges like that based on which clan you are in would lead to the village breaking up. If you look at the hokage position it was never given based on what are the clan memberships, but based on merits. The elders were not Senju either. It's true that the current hokage is a Senju descendant, but she was never the first choice.

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now about your comment about leaving the village, who does that and lives. no one esp a powerful clan like the uchiha is going to just walk out on the village,
Why not, Orochimaru left the village and even had his own village (sound). These villages are not all ruled by emotional leaders, they can be quite rational when it comes to important decisions, and what village would not want the Uchiha clan to join their forces. The old tsuchikage even used the akatsuki when he needed them. There are also smaller villages that the Uchiha could have taken over. Or lets imagine the Uchiha forming an allince with the sand to crush Konoha, just like Orochimaru did. If we look at the story so far i can't remember any strong people being killed because they left the village. The village may have sent it's anbu or whatever hunter ninjas, but they usually simply die against really strong people. Konoha would have to send out an entire army to hunt down the Uchiha, but then there are enemy villages who would wait just for that.
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Old 2012-06-23, 21:18   Link #80
Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Whatever the case, the options chosen by all involved was simply asinine, and I sincerely wish that there could have been some actually discussion of the various possibilities in determining why war was the better option.
True but then that's not possible because with options come the fact that Itachi, this pristine example of a peacefull, loving and gentle man, could actually be blamed for his crazy fucked up decisions. And because he cannot possibly be blamed, the two parties have to be complete morrons who systemically made the worst possible calls for decades until they reached the point of no-return - a point that was never even reached realistically speaking which is why the author doesn't really dwelves into the specifics of the coup.

But still, the really first unforgivable (politically speaking) move came from the Elders with the transfer of the clan out of the village. That's so dumb and counter-productive that I still hope it was purposely staged by Danzou to force the issue so at least someone could be immoral but not completely devoid of intelligence. You won't see me hold my breath though.
And that's why I don't buy the blame game on the Uchiha for being eventually responsible for a future world war (and don't get me started into this so called obvious result when nothing happened after multiple Kyubi attacks, a war against the Sand, the destruction of the village or the actual coups in the Mist village to take another example). From my point of view the responsibility comes first from the systematic bad decisions of Konoha's power that be. You must have (at least) two sides to have a civil war, and if they were so concerned about its inevitability then maybe they should have thought about it sooner and if push comes to shove they could just step down. But from the look of it staying in power and keeping the Uchiha in their place was more important which make them just as guilty in the best of case.

But then this chapter just told me that had Itachi involved 5-7 years old Sasuke it all could have been avoided so yeah my mind is blown and they were pretty much all a bunch of incompetent intellectually deficient rejects.


@Ero-Sennin, there is a lack of Uchiha because they are virtually extinct whereas there is no Senju because.... Well that's the question isn't it? We don't know and that doesn't make sense.
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