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View Poll Results: Critique of Episode 37
10: Amazing... 5 17.86%
9 out of 10: Excellent... 7 25.00%
8 out of 10: Very Good... 9 32.14%
7 out of 10: Good... 3 10.71%
6 out of 10: Average... 1 3.57%
5 out of 10: Below Average... 1 3.57%
4 out of 10: Poor... 0 0%
3 out of 10: Bad... 1 3.57%
2 out of 10: Very Bad... 0 0%
1 out of 10: Torturous... 1 3.57%
Voters: 28. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-06-24, 14:04   Link #41
kakakka
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I dunno if simply putting the Vagans back to Earth will work just like that. For being away from Earth for centuries, they'll just feel alienated by the society on Earth when they just return.
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Old 2012-06-24, 14:07   Link #42
FlareKnight
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Not a bad episode for what they were trying to do. Clearly will have an impact on Kio and take him a step further. Have Flit with no sympathy wanting to wipe the Vagans out, Asemu who just wants to keep the people he cares for safe, but not harboring deep hatred and finally Kio who has seem the suffering up close. Agree it was likely the plan to have him mugged since sending a guy dressed well, looking like a tourist into a poor area is asking for trouble.

I'm glad really we got to meet people like Deen and Lu. Needed some faces for the Vagan people who weren't military. Easy to have sympathy for Lu who has little time left to live and yet wants to live as much as she can in that time. Deen who is watching his sister go and who can only believe in what Ezelcant is saying. This is where the base of the military comes from though. People living with that viewpoint about the people on Earth and willing to listen to anyone who offers them hope.

Of course at the same time the war itself is still stupid. With how easy it is to infiltrate colonies, Ezelcant could have moved his people out slowly. If they spread out to all the colonies at a moderate pace it would have been easy. Especially before he started a war that put everyone on high alert. Instead he starts this massive war, forcing people to prove that they deserve to live, and focusing on taking Earth away from the people living there.

But anyways thinking about it, shouldn't be that hard to rescue Kio. I mean if Zeheart can easily sneak into a colony with mobile suits, then how hard can it be? The Vagan grunts are often as bad as the Federation so security is probably just as bad. I mean really who would want to sneak into Mars colonies in the first place ?
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Originally Posted by Setsuna Asuka View Post
So ezelcant seems like a pretty cool guy.
Yeah, not bad for a lunatic who seems to have a kind of god complex. I mean who is he really to give trials and tests to people on Earth to find out whether they deserve to live or not. Guess those colonies he destroyed failed the test and just didn't want to live enough ?

The man is a lunatic. Think it's impossible to take anything this guy says at face value. After all the point seems to be at least to make Kio sympathize with them and at best decide to fight for them.

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Originally Posted by Gundamx View Post
Used military technology for civilian?
I don't know how technology help you to make gun and weapon can help with civilian life other than fighting...

Anyway, couldn't they (Vegan) just build colony away from Mars?
Military technology has often been converted for civilian use. It's not like using a gun for something other than shooting, but how the gun is made, the parts, internal mechanics, all the advances needed to make that better gun should have some qualities that can be converted. Maybe some of it is so advanced they can't even figure out how to use it for other uses, but it doesn't mean they can't get anything from it.

Agree though, it's not like Mars is doing them any favors so why not move further out away from the rays? Because their esteemed leader needs a suffering population to fuel his war machine?
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Old 2012-06-24, 14:42   Link #43
Liquidzero
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the thing about the vagan gov't's perspective is that war was the only option. they couldn't send refugees back to earth, the federation would destroy them and continue to cover up the mars situation. while they pulled off a pretty impressive infiltration of the earth sphere, from what it sounds like they have multiple colonies as well and a mass infiltration seems pretty difficult, try moving the population of Los Angeles somewhere else, it's not realistic. additionally, it's also a matter of human dignity, try living as a second class citizen or in a country that doesn't particularly like foreigners. there's really a lot to be said about living ignorant of the privileges one has have.
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Old 2012-06-24, 14:45   Link #44
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I dunno if simply putting the Vagans back to Earth will work just like that. For being away from Earth for centuries, they'll just feel alienated by the society on Earth when they just return.
Except Zeheart easily fell in with the crowd and was considered an outstanding student.

So it's not farfetched for them to do so. Given how extensive their infiltration of the Federation is it's not that hard to dummy up some records and move people as "refugees" into the colonies and then Earth. Especially since they had the Prime Minister in bed with him it's hard to believe it couldn't happen.

Quote:
I'm glad really we got to meet people like Deen and Lu. Needed some faces for the Vagan people who weren't military. Easy to have sympathy for Lu who has little time left to live and yet wants to live as much as she can in that time. Deen who is watching his sister go and who can only believe in what Ezelcant is saying. This is where the base of the military comes from though. People living with that viewpoint about the people on Earth and willing to listen to anyone who offers them hope.
Would going to Earth even save them? They stated that the medicine only delays the disease which is inflicted on the inhabitants. Even if they were to move to Earth they'll die anyways (granted they'll at least be back to the homeland).

Quote:
Of course at the same time the war itself is still stupid. With how easy it is to infiltrate colonies, Ezelcant could have moved his people out slowly. If they spread out to all the colonies at a moderate pace it would have been easy. Especially before he started a war that put everyone on high alert. Instead he starts this massive war, forcing people to prove that they deserve to live, and focusing on taking Earth away from the people living there.
If the whole population is dying then perhaps Ezcelant wants the Vagans to be "remembered" which is why he's always giving the Federation a chance to survive. Otherwise, it's pointless if there's no one left standing (The Vagans are going to all die regardless).

It would also explain why he rejected the Federation's olive branches.

Quote:
No, I mean respond with some of the things this thread has.

Which is what I said.
Regardless of the reason it still doesn't justify killing innocent civilians simply because they have it easy here. Especially when they don't even know about it in the first place or were involved with it.

Ezcelant was able to blackmail the higher-ups in the Federation that were responsible for their plight with Flit purging them as a result.

Quote:
the thing about the vagan gov't's perspective is that war was the only option. they couldn't send refugees back to earth, the federation would destroy them and continue to cover up the mars situation. while they pulled off a pretty impressive infiltration of the earth sphere, from what it sounds like they have multiple colonies as well and a mass infiltration seems pretty difficult, try moving the population of Los Angeles somewhere else, it's not realistic. additionally,
Given how easily they could move giant robots into major cities and near bases and had control of the upper echelons of the Federation including their factories, I find it hard to believe they couldn't move large amounts of people over a century.

Quote:
it's also a matter of human dignity, try living as a second class citizen or in a country that doesn't particularly like foreigners. there's really a lot to be said about living ignorant of the privileges one has have.
So if a kid from the Middle East who grew up in poverty came to America, he's well in his rights to judge the people living there and killing them just because?
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Old 2012-06-24, 15:07   Link #45
monster
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Would going to Earth even save them? They stated that the medicine only delays the disease which is inflicted on the inhabitants. Even if they were to move to Earth they'll die anyways (granted they'll at least be back to the homeland).
They'll probably be able to have kids who won't have the illness.
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Old 2012-06-24, 15:14   Link #46
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by FlareKnight View Post
Not a bad episode for what they were trying to do. Clearly will have an impact on Kio and take him a step further. Have Flit with no sympathy wanting to wipe the Vagans out, Asemu who just wants to keep the people he cares for safe, but not harboring deep hatred and finally Kio who has seem the suffering up close. Agree it was likely the plan to have him mugged since sending a guy dressed well, looking like a tourist into a poor area is asking for trouble.

I'm glad really we got to meet people like Deen and Lu. Needed some faces for the Vagan people who weren't military. Easy to have sympathy for Lu who has little time left to live and yet wants to live as much as she can in that time. Deen who is watching his sister go and who can only believe in what Ezelcant is saying. This is where the base of the military comes from though. People living with that viewpoint about the people on Earth and willing to listen to anyone who offers them hope.

Of course at the same time the war itself is still stupid. With how easy it is to infiltrate colonies, Ezelcant could have moved his people out slowly. If they spread out to all the colonies at a moderate pace it would have been easy. Especially before he started a war that put everyone on high alert. Instead he starts this massive war, forcing people to prove that they deserve to live, and focusing on taking Earth away from the people living there.
Heck, they could have come openly before the war even began. Sure, they'd have been refugees and it'd have sucked for a while, but at least they'd be out of the Mars Rays.

I also have problems with Ezelcant's claim Vagans become detached. When's the last time we saw someone like that? They're all pretty quick to avenge their fallen comrades. Except Desil, I guess. Or the fat guy.
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Old 2012-06-24, 15:26   Link #47
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Regarding whether or not it's easy to transfer Vagans to the Earth sphere. Would people welcome them if they found out that the Vagans are plagued by a disease? All it takes is someone in power to encourage the people to reject, isolate, or even kill Vagans out of fear. Even if the Vagans are transferred secretly, they won't be able to hide their disease forever. Then there's the increase in financial burden that may come with an increase in population.
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I also have problems with Ezelcant's claim Vagans become detached. When's the last time we saw someone like that? They're all pretty quick to avenge their fallen comrades. Except Desil, I guess. Or the fat guy.
Actually, he was very proud of the unity of the Vagans. I guess he was differentiating that from personal love towards family, friends, and loved ones. Obviously, it's not the case across the board. But what the brother was saying this episode kind of speaks to that idea.
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Old 2012-06-24, 15:31   Link #48
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Heck, they could have come openly before the war even began. Sure, they'd have been refugees and it'd have sucked for a while, but at least they'd be out of the Mars Rays.

I also have problems with Ezelcant's claim Vagans become detached. When's the last time we saw someone like that? They're all pretty quick to avenge their fallen comrades. Except Desil, I guess. Or the fat guy.
The thing is though, the Federation already left them to die and covered it up. How do the Vegans know the Federation won't just shoot down to cover up their mistake? You have to be pretty fucked up to leave millions in hostile world to die, if you can do that, you can order them blown up just as well...
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Old 2012-06-24, 15:41   Link #49
Anh_Minh
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They did it to cover up their mistakes. The next guys won't be so invested in that course of action. They just have to make their homecoming a public event that can't be ignored by the general population.
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Old 2012-06-24, 15:44   Link #50
SoldierOfDarkness
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Regarding whether or not it's easy to transfer Vagans to the Earth sphere. Would people welcome them if they found out that the Vagans are plagued by a disease? All it takes is someone in power to encourage the people to reject, isolate, or even kill Vagans out of fear. .
Except that person in power would be the Prime Minister and according to Flit he wanted to keep it a secret that it was his family that resulted in the Vagan's plight. That was part of the blackmailing part.

So who else would be there to contest it? We know that Ezeclant had a strong hold on the upper echelons of the Federation. He could've easily had moved large portions of the population over the century into the Earth sphere, take control of the the Federation and then initiate a coup. The guy's just been restraining himself because he wants the Federation to fight or at least train it like a lion.

That and his military was more than capable of taking control of the Earth sphere when Flit was just a kid before the Gundam came in.

I mean it's funny because previous spectulation pointed out the Vagans were time travellers that were trying to jump start the Federation military for an upcoming enemy that would be even more powerful down the road.
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Old 2012-06-24, 15:50   Link #51
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Except that person in power would be the Prime Minister and according to Flit he wanted to keep it a secret that it was his family that resulted in the Vagan's plight. That was part of the blackmailing part.

So who else would be there to contest it? We know that Ezeclant had a strong hold on the upper echelons of the Federation.
You don't think there would be other political rivals who would love to discredit the current Prime Minister? The fact that Flit was able to stage a "revolt" shows that the Vagans do no not have a strong hold on every part of the Earth sphere government.
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
He could've easily had moved large portions of the population over the century into the Earth sphere, take control of the the Federation and then initiate a coup. The guy's just been restraining himself because he wants the Federation to fight or at least train it like a lion.

That and his military was more than capable of taking control of the Earth sphere when Flit was just a kid before the Gundam came in.

I mean it's funny because previous spectulation pointed out the Vagans were time travellers that were trying to jump start the Federation military for an upcoming enemy that would be even more powerful down the road.
Hey, that's what I wanted to see all along.

EDIT: Not the time travel part.
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Old 2012-06-24, 15:55   Link #52
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Ezelcant's reason for the continued war is to spread the same suffering on Earth Sphere that is on Mars Sphere.

That is so idiotic. Instead of blaming themselves for their own circumstances they blame those who have nothing to do with it. Envy and greed is what permeates Vegans when it comes to Earthers.

War is just another word for robbery. Vegans commit atrocities as a justification for their suffering.

Heck one can reason they could've just sent refugee ships back to Earth. But no its warships and armies of mobile suits.

The reason for Earth Sphere's prosperity was that they finally said enough. Ceasing the constant wars that has plagued it.

But unlike Earthers Vegan never grown out of that. The only response they know is violence.
Actually, that's just part of the reasons.
As Ezelcant explained the Vagans live constantly with death. So much that they are slowly forget to care about their loved ones.

As such for Vagans take death as something cheap.
Basically, massacring thousands of people is like Tuesday to them.
They care more about the way they die than the actual fact of extinguishing them.

Yeah, the entire Vagan population is apparently pretty twisted.
Although it's not like they're malicious or even just fueled with jealousy.
Simply put, their set of values is just different.
What's more, they know their values aren't the best but they can't help it.
Hence they wish to settle on Earth.

That doesn't suddenly make the Vagans morally right but hey! Everything is the matter of perspective.

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Agree though, it's not like Mars is doing them any favors so why not move further out away from the rays? Because their esteemed leader needs a suffering population to fuel his war machine?
I doubt Ezelkant is trying to manipulate them.
So far Gundam AGE was hardly famous for its subtlety.
I say this issue with the Mars Rays is either PIS (aka error of the authors) or the Vagans merely lack space stations potent enough to sustain themselves in the outer space.
Th latter is more harder to accomplish than you'd think.
As others said, EXA-DB's technology is probably so beyond their understanding that they could hardly use it for anything besides warfare.
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Old 2012-06-24, 15:57   Link #53
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If the Vagans can hide giant robots in major cities, military bases, take control of factories, blackmail the Prime Minister and numberous other powerful figures in the Federation I don't see why they couldn't.

Especially if they had gone that route in the first place then Flit wouldn't have built the Gundam to begin with.

I consider it strange that when Flit was the Supreme Commander he had so much leeway since in shows with similar situations the "corrupt politicians" always get in the way and red tape them (ie. reduce troop deployments, screw up development of new tech, steal money etc.).

I just find Ezcelant's reason that he's testing the Federation to be....well....weird and make things more complicated than they should be.
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Old 2012-06-24, 16:05   Link #54
monster
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Especially if they had gone that route in the first place then Flit wouldn't have built the Gundam to begin with.
Indeed, but whatever. That's not the route they chose to take for the sake of the story.
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I consider it strange that when Flit was the Supreme Commander he had so much leeway since in shows with similar situations the "corrupt politicians" always get in the way and red tape them (ie. reduce troop deployments, screw up development of new tech, steal money etc.).
Of course, we later find out that supposedly Flit has been trying unsuccessfully to get the government to make more use of the AGE technology. So, I don't know how much say Flit really has.
Quote:
I just find Ezcelant's reason that he's testing the Federation to be....well....weird and make things more complicated than they should be.
It's the answer they've reached to explain the Vagans' behavior since the Vagans could potentially have won the war long ago.
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Old 2012-06-24, 16:31   Link #55
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See the problem I have with that is the Vagans are suffering from disease. They don't have a lot of time and taking an extremely long route just make things more complicated. In Ezcelant's case he's dying and to top it off his subordinates are getting ticked off and will probably bring his ultimate plans to ruin.
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Old 2012-06-24, 16:42   Link #56
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No, that one fat guy is getting ticked off because he's a dick, but even his own subordinate/spy (Fram) sees him as one. Zeheart's still loyal...
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Old 2012-06-24, 17:33   Link #57
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It's the answer they've reached to explain the Vagans' behavior since the Vagans could potentially have won the war long ago.
Ezelcant wants to make Earthers suffer as they did hence prolonging the war. Plus any decisive victory they would need the entire EXA-DB.

Sure they'd win but they would be bogged by insurgency.

From his perspective the only way to connect to the majority of humanity is suffering.

One can argue Ezelcant is delusional. His sickness isn't helping. Viewing young boys as replacement goldfish for his son and sending them to fight his war. That is what the Gallete brothers is all about.
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Old 2012-06-24, 17:35   Link #58
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they could've beat the Federation when they were still using pea shooters, long beforeFlit built the gundam.
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Old 2012-06-24, 19:08   Link #59
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This would've been a great episode if they actually brought up that the federation offered peace negotiations several times, as Flit mentioned in GEN2.

Instead, imo, the Vagan's/Ezelcant just comes off as a butthurt hardhead that wants revenge instead of caring about the Vagan people at all, most of that " SUFFERING " could've been prevented if they just had those peace negotiations or well, asked if they could return to begin with.

giving this episode a 1/10 just because its flat out dumb in so many ways that i'd rather rewatch the Fardain arc. This episode had so much potential that was wasted.

It's like saying you love someone and do everything you possible can to hurt/screw them over, then use his/her pain as motivaton to continue

Last edited by Znozzy; 2012-06-24 at 19:14. Reason: too much ranting
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Old 2012-06-24, 19:52   Link #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Would going to Earth even save them? They stated that the medicine only delays the disease which is inflicted on the inhabitants. Even if they were to move to Earth they'll die anyways (granted they'll at least be back to the homeland).
Well I think it all depends on this disease. The fact that we know nothing except it kills people is kind of annoying for the sake of speculation. I mentioned Deen alone since it's unlikely his sister can be saved even if she's moved. At best it might buy her more time. If they mentioned that all Vagans are sick I missed it, but if it's only a large percentage then Deen could be fine and moving would let him live to a normal age. Otherwise it would again give him more time. Just think it makes sense that Ezelcant can take advantage of these people since if you're dying or someone in your family is (which should cover all Vagans) then hope for a world that won't kill you or at least where your children won't be killed by "Rays" is incredibly tempting.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Heck, they could have come openly before the war even began. Sure, they'd have been refugees and it'd have sucked for a while, but at least they'd be out of the Mars Rays.

I also have problems with Ezelcant's claim Vagans become detached. When's the last time we saw someone like that? They're all pretty quick to avenge their fallen comrades. Except Desil, I guess. Or the fat guy.
True, that would also have been an option. Of course I worry that it might not have been easy. Since for the public these people 'didn't exist' strange refugees coming from a place that shouldn't have people might have caused trouble. At worst the Federation might have rounded them all up. At the very least though infiltration of small numbers in a wide area should have worked fine. Even if the sick die while there it shouldn't be overly strange. People do die all the time after all.

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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
This would've been a great episode if they actually brought up that the federation offered peace negotiations several times, as Flit mentioned in GEN2.

Instead, imo, the Vagan's/Ezelcant just comes off as a butthurt hardhead that wants revenge instead of caring about the Vagan people at all, most of that " SUFFERING " could've been prevented if they just had those peace negotiations or well, asked if they could return to begin with.

giving this episode a 1/10 just because its flat out dumb in so many ways that i'd rather rewatch the Fardain arc. This episode had so much potential that was wasted.

It's like saying you love someone and do everything you possible can to hurt/screw them over, then use his/her pain as motivaton to continue
I wish they had brought up the peace offers. If only so we could have gotten more information about what exactly they stated. Was it simply a ceasefire and both sides stay in their own areas? If the peace offers didn't include permission to return to the Earth Sphere then it's no wonder it would never be accepted. A simple cease-fire isn't going to end this conflict.
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