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View Poll Results: Hyouka - Episode 10 Rating
Perfect 10 21 30.88%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 23 33.82%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 16 23.53%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 7.35%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 2.94%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 1.47%
Voters: 68. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-06-25, 02:34   Link #21
Skane
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Damn, they weren't kidding when they said Irisu was manipulative. When you think about it... it was a succession of manipulators. Houtarou's sister was the master manipulator, who taught Irisu, who then taught Eru; and all three are pulling Houtarou's strings.

Heh.
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Old 2012-06-25, 02:38   Link #22
Leavnok
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Well.. when Oreki mentioned his solution of the cameraman and how it was done, I checked the time and immediately knew the arc wasn't going to finish with this episode..

From deductions of episode 8 and 9 this solution was basically knocked out.

First off, the ad libs of the actors - this leads to a cameraman who is not only inexperienced but has no exact orders to follow except something on the lines of "make sure you see everything noted in the script." Why this idea? That is answered in episode 9 where in Hongou's script she mentions possibly needing to record the 2 girls going to grab the key all the way, which the cameraman does not do.

You can think this is unimportant, but part of it was to show for sure that the 2 girls actually went to get the master key, and one didn't previously have it on hand.

Therefore the idea of the cameraman even seeming to exist (due to the flashlight and perceptions) can simply be explained by lack of motivation on the cameraman's part.

Second, we have the fact that there is the rope.

Third.... He for whatever reason dismisses Sugimura Jirou's ability to see the cameraman move from the camera to the masterkey, the masterkey to Kaitou's room, and Kaitou's room back to the camera. I'm sorry but time does not freeze when the camera stops rolling, Sugimura should have been in his room.

I still think my idea I had from last week is correct and seems like the most probable solution.
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Old 2012-06-25, 02:47   Link #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skane View Post
Damn, they weren't kidding when they said Irisu was manipulative. When you think about it... it was a succession of manipulators. Houtarou's sister was the master manipulator, who taught Irisu, who then taught Eru; and all three are pulling Houtarou's strings.

Heh.
At least the manipulation is accompanied by colourful scenes when Chitanda the HYPNOTOAD is doing it . He does tend to get manipulated quite a bit. Kind of funny that you see him getting used often, but in this episode it just felt worse than usual. Maybe because it was kind of isolating him. Using Irisu's own example; I think while the talented player saying it was only luck hurts the bench players, not reminding the person that they couldn't have done it without the team is just as bad. She may have just wanted Houtarou on this mystery instead of the Classics Club, but in the end it will be the Classics Club itself that solves this mystery.
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Old 2012-06-25, 03:14   Link #24
DragoonKain3
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Two things of note this episode for me...

1) Satoshi got my hopes up when he had to be dragged away. Just when I thought Mayaka is finally gonna have some alone time with Oreki, it all makes sense that Mayaka will be in school as a librarian for the summer break. Mr. Author, why must you be so logical?

(Althought I did find it a bit too convenient so we get only Oreki being the sole person with Senpai, but meh...)


2) Mayaka going to be the Watson to Oreki's Holmes? I mean, even Satoshi been hinting that she'd be good if she really put her mind to it, and here it's her who reminds Oreki about the rope.
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Old 2012-06-25, 04:41   Link #25
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Lol, Good job calling the film "What no one noticed", Oreki. Ironically, it's just some thing you didn't notice.

Don't recall it answering the "blood volume" question either though...
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Old 2012-06-25, 04:55   Link #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
Two things of note this episode for me...

1) Satoshi got my hopes up when he had to be dragged away. Just when I thought Mayaka is finally gonna have some alone time with Oreki, it all makes sense that Mayaka will be in school as a librarian for the summer break. Mr. Author, why must you be so logical?

(Althought I did find it a bit too convenient so we get only Oreki being the sole person with Senpai, but meh...)


2) Mayaka going to be the Watson to Oreki's Holmes? I mean, even Satoshi been hinting that she'd be good if she really put her mind to it, and here it's her who reminds Oreki about the rope.
Well can look at it from the positive perspective that her childhood connection with Satoshi is so strong that if he isn't around then she can't be bothered to stay . Though to be fair she did apologize for leaving at the very end.

Does seem like she's the perfect person to play that role. Chitanda didn't want to say anything (maybe because she didn't want to bring up what she saw in the log in front of the students) and Satoshi left it alone as well. Mayaka out of anyone isn't going to pull any punches when she knows he missed something.
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Old 2012-06-25, 04:57   Link #27
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Originally Posted by Leavnok View Post
First off, the ad libs of the actors - this leads to a cameraman who is not only inexperienced but has no exact orders to follow except something on the lines of "make sure you see everything noted in the script." Why this idea? That is answered in episode 9 where in Hongou's script she mentions possibly needing to record the 2 girls going to grab the key all the way, which the cameraman does not do.
You can think this is unimportant, but part of it was to show for sure that the 2 girls actually went to get the master key, and one didn't previously have it on hand.

Therefore the idea of the cameraman even seeming to exist (due to the flashlight and perceptions) can simply be explained by lack of motivation on the cameraman's part.
Good you mentioned this; I remember seeing a scene where you could actually read parts of the script, but couldn't find it again... Still the cameraman is not impossible even if they get the key. Another problem is that we don'r really know who unlocked the door, it could have very well been the camera man, you therefore don't know whether they actually got the key, which is why it would have been important to see the girls actually getting it.
The fact that maskes this impossible is Sugimura's line of sight.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Leavnok View Post
Second, we have the fact that there is the rope.

Third.... He for whatever reason dismisses Sugimura Jirou's ability to see the cameraman move from the camera to the masterkey, the masterkey to Kaitou's room, and Kaitou's room back to the camera. I'm sorry but time does not freeze when the camera stops rolling, Sugimura should have been in his room.

I still think my idea I had from last week is correct and seems like the most probable solution.
Actually Papermario and my solution are pretty possibhle as well, I do however favor papermario's theory, because mine iss only possible in the anime and was a result of an objeet being there that should have never existed in the first place(A laundry chute; was not mentioned in the novel) resulting in a wrong theory :/.
I do have another one, but it partly contradicts the window not allowed as a way to enter. While it would even explain Hongou's request for only a small portion of blood it would raise a few other questions, especially considering how small Kounosu is.
So switching keys after climbing down the side-window is the most likely solution.

One thing is sure - Kounosu is the culprit. No matter how you look at it, she is the only one who could have pulled it off.
Let the chute exist and it will lead to the lighting room
Refuse its existance (atm proven) and she could still use the side window to the control room.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
Two things of note this episode for me...

1) Satoshi got my hopes up when he had to be dragged away. Just when I thought Mayaka is finally gonna have some alone time with Oreki, it all makes sense that Mayaka will be in school as a librarian for the summer break. Mr. Author, why must you be so logical?

(Althought I did find it a bit too convenient so we get only Oreki being the sole person with Senpai, but meh...)


2) Mayaka going to be the Watson to Oreki's Holmes? I mean, even Satoshi been hinting that she'd be good if she really put her mind to it, and here it's her who reminds Oreki about the rope.
I'm pretty sure Satoshi is the Watson, Mayaka is too good at deducing. Another option would be Mayaka Watson and Satoshi Note book, then again Holmes never took notes...
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Old 2012-06-25, 05:50   Link #28
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I think what kind of took away from the ending was that you knew that Houtarou's initial conclusion wouldn't be right. Like last arc he was missing something and Chitanda wasn't satisfied. Whether she remembered the rope I'm not sure, but you could see that she wasn't happy. Whether her satisfaction is a measurement for the truth is another story, but if she's not happy then we're probably not on the right track. Though to be fair like Houtarou I forgot about the rope and how with the cameraman theory the rope doesn't matter at all.

Though really seems like everyone sensed it wasn't quite right. Satoshi only called it "not bad", Mayaka outright said the rope wasn't there, and Chitanda looked disappointed. Of course I'm sure it's a combination of that rope and what Chitanda read. Chitanda being home with a hangover (), was the key to this. Needed her out of the picture so she couldn't point out the flaws in Houtarou's theory.

Of course I actually didn't want Houtarou to solve it like this. Didn't like the feeling of him being manipulated by Irisu. Not that I don't agree he has talent and skill at solving mysteries like these, but it just felt like a dirty trick being played on him. Taking advantage of that weakness and almost self-depreciation he has (which I still think is linked to his sister being so overwhelmingly talented). If he's going to solve this want it to be a group effort.

Will say that this was the kind of darkest we've seen Satoshi. We've seen hints, but this was pretty clear. Really wonder what he thinks about Houtarou. Does he feel that frustration of seeing someone talented ignore their own ability? While I think Houtarou tried to apply the same tactic as Irisu with saying he sees more in Satoshi than Satoshi himself sees, it backfired. Maybe hearing that from someone who is talented at seeing things would be a bit painful. Regardless Satoshi is bound to have some major focus coming sooner or later.
You said everything I have for initial reaction, and exactly like I want to say it.

I didn't read this part of the novel yet, so I assumed that drunken Chitanda was added by KyoAni for comedy. How wrong I was about that. If she were to be presented, she would've told Houtarou that something felt wrong with his conclusion. I was ready to give this episode < 7 because while his explanation is kind of good enough to justify cameraman-did-it theory, it still feel like cheating to me. So I really glad when the other members reaction is strange. Maybe Houtarou's theory was part of the plan though, since the flaws that was pointed out in the show so far came from outside the movie (e.g. rope). And then we still have the whole mystery of the writer's situation itself. This arc sure is very good for me. On the note, I like the switching-off-colors effect at the end. That was great.

I'm not a big fan of how Irisu pressure Houtarou into doing it too. If we recall how Chitanda ask for his help in the café, her message of "please help me" was clear. On the contrary, as Houtarou jokingly said it himself, the way Irisu did it is more like "help me" without the "please" part. I don't like that way of asking for help. If it was me, I'd have outright refuse to help. Not because I didn't want to help, but because I didn't like how it was asked.

There's another trend going on, IMO. Just when Houtarou wanted to try a rose-colored life because Sekitani Jun tale was so bright he left his name in history, he learned that it is not a heroic story and commented that maybe his grey life isn't so bad. Chitanda perfect version of siblings relationship got crushed, and backed up again a bit. Now just as he gained some confidences in his ability, Houtarou is very closed to screw up the entire class effort by jumping to the wrong conclusion. Is this the "bitter sweetness of growing up" that was the premised of this story? The fact that your childhood's hopes and dreams got adjusted to the reality?

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Originally Posted by FlareKnight View Post
Well can look at it from the positive perspective that her childhood connection with Satoshi is so strong...
It might be your typo, but Mayaka is Houtarou's and not Satoshi's childhood friend. But she like Satoshi of course.
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Old 2012-06-25, 05:51   Link #29
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Some thoughts...

I gave a thumbs up to the "cameraman did it" idea last time around, but it's almost a bit disappointing to be right With all the discussion around the mystery though, I think maybe the character development side has been a bit overlooked - Houtarou is really starting to change here (though he's being suckered into it somewhat too). I like how they conveyed this change in Houtarou.

The original novel author certainly did give himself an interesting problem though - if you have a main character who doesn't care much about things, how do you develop good tension (or even get the readers interested for that matter)? For these 2 bigger arcs, the same method has been used - it's only towards the end that Houtarou gets properly motivated to solve the problem but if he then solves it perfectly straight away then there's no real tension. So essentially, each time Houtarou sticks his neck out, he gets shot down (to some extent) and then has to fight back. Once Houtarou changes enough then we can see something else play out.


PS Regarding the mystery itself, I think some people were overly focused on the "rules" of mystery writing (particularly detective fiction) yet the story for the film did not have a proper detective role and was also written to be a film and not a novel. More importantly, remember that Irisu got involved with this project late in the game - she says that Hongou studied the genre and "should have" followed the various rules. She does not state for certain that Hongou did in fact follow those particular rules - I dont know how well the subs conveyed this but it seems fairly clear to me in the Japanese.

It will be interesting to see what the "real" resolution is. Was Houtarou completely off? What is the real mystery behind the mystery? etc. The title for next episode mentions "the fool" - using the same word as when the group were talking about Tarot cards. So, does Eru play some major part or does Houtarou become "the fool"?
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Old 2012-06-25, 06:06   Link #30
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PS Regarding the mystery itself, I think some people were overly focused on the "rules" of mystery writing (particularly detective fiction) yet the story for the film did not have a proper detective role and was also written to be a film and not a novel. More importantly, remember that Irisu got involved with this project late in the game - she says that Hongou studied the genre and "should have" followed the various rules. She does not state for certain that Hongou did in fact follow those particular rules - I dont know how well the subs conveyed this but it seems fairly clear to me in the Japanese.
I believe that's just a figure of speech? I'll be very disappointed if the solution is that the author cheated by not follow the rules. Houtarou's explanation about the first person perspective and flashlight is kind of ok, but I still feel cheated before that was shot down.
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Old 2012-06-25, 06:49   Link #31
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Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata View Post

PS Regarding the mystery itself, I think some people were overly focused on the "rules" of mystery writing (particularly detective fiction) yet the story for the film did not have a proper detective role and was also written to be a film and not a novel. More importantly, remember that Irisu got involved with this project late in the game - she says that Hongou studied the genre and "should have" followed the various rules. She does not state for certain that Hongou did in fact follow those particular rules - I dont know how well the subs conveyed this but it seems fairly clear to me in the Japanese.

It will be interesting to see what the "real" resolution is. Was Houtarou completely off? What is the real mystery behind the mystery? etc. The title for next episode mentions "the fool" - using the same word as when the group were talking about Tarot cards. So, does Eru play some major part or does Houtarou become "the fool"?
You know the problem is not just the rope alone, but also the amount of blood that should have been used.
It actually raises the question if the crime has really happend where the body was found.
Please watch again and take a close look at the Author's amount of blood and the one the requisition team produced in the end.
As you can see the difference is remarkable and also no longer the difference between post and ante mortem
This actually points to another place as the crime scene, which brings us back to the rope meant to not snap under a person's weight.
Who tells us that the murderer has used it in order to get to the crime scene and not to bring the body there?
This does again point to Kounosu btw -> Kaitou and Kounosu planned to meat up abovve from the start, they might have even planned to murder someone else together but kounosu backstabbed him. Oh and as for how he got up to her; Of course with the rope she let down.
Its also no problem that she is small as she she only needed to support him a bit and swing him in.
Which brings something else up - Did Katsuta have a hard time opening the window because it was damaged or because is been a long time since it got opened?
Also what about the knife? You need one for the cut off arm.

Another solution would be a trap inside the room laid by Kounosu or Katsuta.

This is btw not a single bit more obnoxious than the camera man theroy, its actually more likely than the camera man theory since it involves all the clues Hongou has left behind...
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Old 2012-06-25, 07:59   Link #32
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Man, the cliffhanger ending of the episode was so dramatic and suspenseful you would think he's actually dealing with a real life murder case
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Old 2012-06-25, 09:59   Link #33
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This is the first time I find myself disappointed in Houtarou's deduction. While it was smart, it was also very lazy. His solution made for a nice twist but he completely overlooked the mystery elements including points he had raised himself (Sugimura being able to see everything that happened in the lobby), turning the story into something that isn't that much of a mystery anymore. The final twist is not all that matters in a mystery.

The mystery aside -- I thought Houtarou's conversation with Satoshi was very interesting, as they often are. Satoshi is a very intriguing character. I'm curious to learn more about him. He's obviously more than a mere side-kick.

I enjoyed Mayaka's screentime in this episode as well. She is very observant and apparently smarter than I thought she was. I'm under the impression she had already figured out the camera trick.
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Old 2012-06-25, 10:37   Link #34
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This was a pretty good episode in terms of the characterization of Satoshi, Mayaka, and Houtarou. I really am growing to like these characters, particularly Houtarou. After this episode, I'm beginning to suspect that his energy-conservation philosophy might just be a manifestation of his low self-esteem (or self-expectancy), maybe some form of self-handicapping.

As for the execution, I'd say that this show consistently outdoes itself when it comes to setting up a tense atmosphere at a moment's notice. That cliffhanger was just masterful, complete with the cold sweat.

Anyway, I'm glad that it didn't simply end there since it felt very anticlimactic. It was nowhere nearly as engaging the climax of the first arc, not to mention that the solution felt a bit half-baked. Most importantly, the whole mystery with Hongou is still unresolved (though this episode confirms that Irisu might not be as knowledgeable of Hongou's intentions as some suspected).

As for the movie mystery, I'm sure a lot of the people here would be able to relate with Haba's sullen expression.

Still, I wouldn't have guessed that Sawakiguchi's theory was the closest one to the truth. Imagine my surprise when I turned out to be mistaken. I wasn't upset in the least though since I'm a fan of this kind of "meta" mystery that preys on people's preconceived notions.

For my own amateurish take on the "real" solution, I'm guessing that Houtarou's solution was partially correct with the 7th person as the cameraman, but it was the story's resolution that was off. As such, I believe that the story was intended to end with someone hanging himself/herself, quite possibly the cameraman.
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Old 2012-06-25, 10:39   Link #35
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The movie story continues.
Looks like they only wanted Oreki to solve this case, not the Classics club.
Irisu sees him as some kind of prodigy and I must say she's right.
Oreki is talented, but also lazy.
The only thing that save him from his boring life was the Classics club.
He really is something like a Japanese version of Sherlock Holmes.
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Old 2012-06-25, 11:28   Link #36
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This is the first time I find myself disappointed in Houtarou's deduction. While it was smart, it was also very lazy. His solution made for a nice twist but he completely overlooked the mystery elements including points he had raised himself (Sugimura being able to see everything that happened in the lobby), turning the story into something that isn't that much of a mystery anymore. The final twist is not all that matters in a mystery.
Yeah, it's a "good" solution but seems not the be the "ultimate" one.

It's a bit of a curious scenario though, I must say. To me, it feels like a satisfying answer to the murder among the obvious suspects doesn't really exist - the setup just feels too vague. So I've mostly been thinking about "other" things, such as Hongou's feelings and more "thinking outside the box" type answers. But, considering that this is more a show about awkward adolescence than super detectives or overly capable characters, maybe that's ok - the movie, like the main character, is stumbling around somewhat. It can be a bit unsightly at times, but it's all part of the process.

Hopefully there's light at the end of the tunnel though, both for Houtarou and the "true" answer to the murder mystery.


Quote:
The mystery aside -- I thought Houtarou's conversation with Satoshi was very interesting, as they often are. Satoshi is a very intriguing character. I'm curious to learn more about him. He's obviously more than a mere side-kick.
The feeling I get is that Houtarou has two "foils" - Satoshi more for inner thoughts, motivations and expectations while Mayaka is mostly there to challenge his theories, to compete with him or otherwise keep him on the straight and narrow. Naturally his discussions with Satoshi tend to be a bit deeper and more personal, and give some insight into Satoshi as well. Without Satoshi, Houtarou would just be moping around with internal monologues or staring at himself in the mirror, which would be boring.


Quote:
I enjoyed Mayaka's screentime in this episode as well. She is very observant and apparently smarter than I thought she was. I'm under the impression she had already figured out the camera trick.
The way she is willing to openly challenge people is quite nice and keeps the story moving along - most of the time, it seems the others wouldn't be quite so pro-active. I wonder if Houtarou will become more assertive when dealing with others...
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Old 2012-06-25, 11:40   Link #37
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Detective Kun-Kun would have solved this 2 episodes ago.
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Old 2012-06-25, 11:42   Link #38
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WHAT A MANIPULATIVE BITCH.

Irisu-senpai should dyed her hair green.
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Old 2012-06-25, 12:48   Link #39
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Ok ... will give ep 10 a 7.5 out of 10.

I must admit that I felt very, very leery of Irisu-senpai as well. Something about her just felt "off", somehow.
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Old 2012-06-25, 13:25   Link #40
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Why all this Irisu hate? She's adorable. x3

And the gosh darn rope! And to think that Oreki was beginning to believe in his own abilities.
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