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Old 2012-06-25, 13:49   Link #29301
Asuka0NK
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Originally Posted by Lady_Bernkastel View Post
oh! now it makes sense.. then, you mean Yasu always looked like Shannon does?
But how come people just completely stopped calling her Yasu one day? the scenes from 1976 showed that sometimes they called him by the name Yasu (if I remember correctly...), but on 1986 no one refers to her even *once* as Yasu. as if there's no trace for the name (which makes you doubt whether they are really connected).
Well it's not like they just one day stopped calling her Yasu. I thought only Garashi, Sanon, and the other 2 called her Yasu because as I recall after that she is never called Yasu again. But I may be wrong.
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Old 2012-06-25, 13:53   Link #29302
Lady_Bernkastel
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Originally Posted by Asuka0NK View Post
Well it's not like they just one day stopped calling her Yasu. I thought only Garashi, Sanon, and the other 2 called her Yasu because as I recall after that she is never called Yasu again. But I may be wrong.
yeah I'm not sure either... maybe you're right and it's just those specific characters who used that name...
and then those servants left, new ones arrived, Yasu was presented to them as 'Shannon', and the name 'Yasu' just disappeared. That would make sense...
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Old 2012-06-25, 14:07   Link #29303
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Nevermind because I remember she still went by Yasu when Berune and Asune came so I think she just probably told people not to call her that once she "became" Beatrice because that is when the Yasu name stops being used and the name Shannon starts to be used.
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Old 2012-06-25, 14:41   Link #29304
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I'm siding with Wanderer here. It's likely that her name is Sayo Yasuda. Yet another one of those things that the reader really SHOULD know, since it's probably common knowledge to all the characters.
Well maybe not all the characters. Jessica acts like she doesn't know Kanon's name and so she probably would have to get him to tell her in order to know.

One would of course assume all the other servants would know Yasu's name, however. Otherwise, you know, how'd they start calling her that?
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Originally Posted by Lady_Bernkastel View Post
oh! now it makes sense.. then, you mean Yasu always looked like Shannon does?
But how come people just completely stopped calling her Yasu one day? the scenes from 1976 showed that sometimes they called him by the name Yasu (if I remember correctly...), but on 1986 no one refers to her even *once* as Yasu. as if there's no trace for the name (which makes you doubt whether they are really connected).
Taking your questions in turn:

1) No, Yasu probably doesn't look like Shannon. I'd be not the least bit surprised if she actually more closely looks like Kanon physically, particularly if she was born androgynous, hermaphroditic, or just flat-out biologically male. Shannon is a physical and behavioral ideal, and if Yasu strove to become Shannon it was most likely only in the behavioral sense. I find it highly unlikely she was stuffing her bra, unless that's just a body image issue we never got enough information on.

In the stories, that does appear to have been the case (at least if we go by Ryukishi's jokes as truth about things), but I would somewhat doubt Yasu-Prime was doing that. She was just a servant who looked different from the way she'd idealize herself to look. Either that or she was even more insecure than she already portrays herself to be, which is possible at least.

2) No one in 1986 refers to her as Yasu because none of the other Fukuin servants are on the island in 1986. Even if they do still call her that (and they may not), none of them are there to do it. One would assume she is not known by the Yasu nickname among the family, so they'd call her Shannon. Genji is a professional and would not call her Yasu anywhere anyone could see her, if he ever even calls her that at all. Gohda probably doesn't know the Fukuin servants very well and might not even know her name/nickname, so he would also call her Shannon. Nanjo and Kumasawa may know, but they have to act like they don't know because they're not "supposed" to know.

But also, all the representations of 1986 are fictional stories. The first of these written - allegedly - by Yasu herself. She's intentionally erasing herself from her own stories for a particular purpose. Thus, she doesn't want anyone calling Shannon Yasu, because in this fictional world there are two servants who represent two aspects of herself and she clearly wants them both to be happy even though she knows it isn't "really" possible. One could even argue it's authorial escapism, allowing Shannon and Kanon to both exist in some form in the story as independent personalities, even if they're the same "person" in terms of the mystery solution.

Also she's really insecure and probably doesn't mind no one noticing she's not in her own story. And part of finding the "heart" is to recognize the person who isn't there.

...But this sort of makes me wonder how stupid everyone can possibly be. I mean, surely Kanon wasn't a thing that was actually going on in real life that anybody credible among the servants believed. If you asked one of the many Fukuin servants who were still employed but not on Rokkenjima on Oct. 4-6, 1986, they would presumably tell you that in addition to Genji, there was one Fukuin servant on the island. They would know this. Or, at the very least, the way Shannon and Kanon behave would not seem "right" to them, as Shannon and Kanon are highly idealized. While Battler might not necessarily know this himself, and would have to figure it out, anybody willing to do even a tiny bit of research into the whole Rokkenjima Incident thing would have been able to talk to one of the many servants who had worked there in the early 80s.

That and, um, confirm that no such person as Kanon ever actually existed at Fukuin (which ep8 at least suggests someone may have actually done), unless Genji doctored the records. And I don't see why he would bother, since he was in control of that and probably wasn't expecting anyone to start looking into Kanon after everyone mysteriously exploded.
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Old 2012-06-25, 14:57   Link #29305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady_Bernkastel View Post
I'm going over theories, Ryu's answer, EPs, etc... and there's something I don't understand about the shkanon theory.
*I'll treat Yasu as a male for now.. instead of writing he\she everytime (lazy... lol).

one day Yasu 'created' the shannon personality on 1976 (the year he arrived at the mansion and started working). I guess that on some point, when he wanted the Shannon personality to actually 'interact' with other people, he also changed his looks and not just used the name Shannon.
Then the thing I don't get is - what, since then, everyone who lived in 1976 and knew Yasu as Yasu (e.g. Genji and more servants) just forgot about that kid ever existing? like, *poof* he just disappeared and there's a Shannon girl in the mansion?

Something doesn't make sense to me... Maybe there's something I just didn't get right.
anyone?
I think that it was only the other Fukuins who called her Yasu (it is portrayed as an insulting nickname), and they all decided to leave on the same day. (That's mentioned at one point in Episode 7.) After that, there wasn't anybody to tell the new servants about it.

The adult servants (Genji, Kumasawa) are shown as not being as petty; they probably never used that name. Family members probably only used her professional name and may never have been aware of the nickname at all.
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Old 2012-06-25, 14:59   Link #29306
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It may just be me misinterpretting the EP7 scenes, but maybe Shannon also was someone separate from Yasu who Yasu wanted to be like. If Shannon graduated with Renon's group and Yasu turned out to be a *very* great master of disguise, then it would have went something like "I thought you left Shannon." "Oh no." As far as "Yasu" goes, she never really was thought of much. She might not have even been missed.

On the other hand, we also know that "Yoshiya" was made up. I don't quite know what the name means, but is it possible that "Sayo" is just as made up?
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Old 2012-06-25, 15:11   Link #29307
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I suppose this means that according to the theory George killed Gohda and Shannon in EP2 and then killed himself?
Actually R7 answer that twilight in ther interviews.

K Still, the locked room in Natsuhi’s chamber is a special case. If Shannon actually committed suicide, there is nobody who can get rid of the weapon. If you think of Genji finalizing that, then it just happens smoothly, but…hmm *laugh*.

R7 Because we have come so far, I think I can give you an answer, though it is basically the same trick as with the well. Shannon died face down, slumped over the makeup cabinet. It’s a really simple trick. You tie the weapon to a heavy object with a string, then you throw the heavy object behind the cabinet. And then it’s the classic trick, when you commit suicide, the gun is pulled behind the cabinet towards the heavy object.

K So that’s how it went?!

R7 I thought, because you solved the riddle of the well as well, that you would get this trick without any problem. I especially wrote that she was „slumped over, face down, over the makeup cabinet“. And while the other two in the room were actually pierced by the stakes, Shannon was not. That is why you can imagine her being the last to die in that room, because there was nobody left to insert the stake into the gunwound. There was never a full inspection of that special room, so that means that the weapon was left within it.



Also another part i found very interisting about shannon

K Love is really a sufficient motive even for murder, isn’t it?!

R7 And I think people who do not know that, will sadly never understand Umineko. Because Umineko is „the story of a single girl who arrived at that point because she imagined an incident because of the love and madness in herself“, no matter how much I express that, people who don’t share that feeling will never do so. If I had to compare it, it’s similar to a kick in the crotch or menstrual pain. No matter how much more I pile up on my writing by explaining it, it won’t reach the people who don’t know the feeling. How scary must it be, to be told that your partner „wants children“, when you have a body that cannot make love. That’s why Shannon couldn’t speak honestly. Because she thought she would be hated if she were honest. But to be honest, I think if she really told him that, George would be more than happy to modify his plans for the future. But Shannon was far to scared to hear that. And if you turn this around, it means that George really wasn’t just a replacement for Battler. Maybe he was a replacement at the beginning, but at some point she began completely seeing George for the man he was. If you think about that, his comment about children, must have kept haunting her in silence.

K Then I think it is also a clue that nothing happened between them, while they were staying at the same place in Okinawa.

R7 It is a clue. To just blurt it out spontaneously was more than Shannon was ready for. „I will reveal it sometime“. Because she was so scared of herself, she couldn’t confess. If it had been because of one action that George took, she wouldn’t have had any choice, that was the balance of passivity she upheld. While she did not hide it actively, she also wouldn’t talk about it openly. Because of that thinking, going on that trip to Okinawa was an experience to her like being a carp on a high slope, „He prepared separate rooms for us *twitch*?“ *laugh*. That knightly George came all the way to Okinawa only to dare and prepare separate rooms? Shannon must have been like „What?!“. But there are many scenes like that which show how Shannon left the decision to fate. For example at the first twilight in EP1, when George was told by Hideyoshi „You should not look at this corpse!“. If he had gone in, not minding that there would be no face, he would have seen that there was no corpse. It would have meant the end of the incident. Or even if Battler had actually squeezed Shannon’s breasts, he might have noticed that they are fake. Shannon was in a state of mind that said „if it comes to light, let it“.
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Old 2012-06-25, 15:58   Link #29308
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Yeah the guy Knownomore pretty much thinks everything Ryukishi07 says is a lie so of course he thinks that is a lie.
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Old 2012-06-25, 16:22   Link #29309
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Yeah the guy Knownomore pretty much thinks everything Ryukishi07 says is a lie so of course he thinks that is a lie.
/puts on a Beato voice.

He doesn't have enough love!

Without love, the truth cannot be seen. One has to trust in the creator of a mystery game in order to solve it. There's no need to believe in any of the reds at all if everything that Ryukishi says is a lie, let alone believe that the black text fantasy scenes or interviews are conveying important information to us. If he thinks everything Ryukishi says is a lie, every bit of information that guy Knownomore's theories rely on might as well be based on nothing.

It's useless, it's all useless, isn't it?! *cackle cackle cackle*/Ahaha.wav

(I know, some of the reds are dubious, but I do think that Ryukishi likely believes them to be legit. He may be failing to give all the right info, but isn't it true what I think Virgilia said, that although a game may be made to be solved, the person setting it may have a different idea of what is and isn't possible to be guessed?)
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Old 2012-06-25, 16:29   Link #29310
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Hell, I have no trust in Ryukishi at all and I still believe he's sincere about what he thinks he intended to do with his own damn story. I just think his decisions are bad.

Besides, it's easier to believe he's shifty or incompetent with respect to contradicting the red than to believe the red is true and he's meta-trolling to an extent that defies all common sense.
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Old 2012-06-25, 16:35   Link #29311
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Well, yes. There are levels of trust. By this point, if the Shkanontrice theory isn't true to some degree at least on the gameboards, then Ryukishi is lying to the point where there's very little point in paying attention to anything he says. I'm not sure I trust Ryukishi to deliver a good solution (or even to deliver a solution at all...) but I would agree that he's sincere in his intentions and isn't trying to have everything he says be a lie.
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Old 2012-06-25, 17:24   Link #29312
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If Rosa/George theory is true, then what the hell was the point of Episode 7?

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Old 2012-06-25, 17:28   Link #29313
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exactly that is another thing that makes no sense. Who would spend their precious time writing a whole entire story that is nothing but a lie. Considering also how hard making Visual Novels is why would Ryukishi waste his time writing a lie. It doesn't make any sense.
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Old 2012-06-25, 17:39   Link #29314
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If Rose/George theory is true, then what the hell was the point of Episode 7?
Well you see because EP7 almost didn't talk about Rosa or George at all that's meant to be taken as a hint that the development for everyone else is itself evidence that we must look more closely at them!

...Yeah I got nothin'.
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Old 2012-06-25, 17:51   Link #29315
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EP7? What the hell was the point of the whole umineko.
With the Rose\George interpretation you get a story about stories just because. There is no real purpose nor a logical explanation as to why these many different fictional stories all portraying the same culprits exist.

With the standard interpretation, however, there is a precise a purpose. Each story is meant to communicate something to a precise person. In EP8 it was even stated that for Beatrice and Battler the murder mystery challenge is a way of communicating something.

Now if the purpose of the fictions was to communicate the truth of a murder, they wouldn't make much sense, because you can hardly understand the truth of a murder when the situations drastically change each different game.
But if the purpose is to communicate something that is only secondarily related to a murder mystery, then it makes sense that they are all differents. The fact that they keep changing proves that the mystery itself is not what matters, what really matters is what never changes, and that's the culprit and its reasons (plus some other details like shkanon).
And this is important because you actually a have a person (Yasu) who by mean of these fictions wants to communicate something (her love) to a precise person (Battler).
And this isn't just something that happens in the metaworld, the metaworld is like a metaphor, it needs to be based on something real before existing.

Yasu actually wanted to communicate her message through her mystery and she actually wrote those stories (the first 2 arcs plus a missing third) which had the same purpose.
And this is what Umineko is about.
Umineko is not about a culprit or two killing their family members.
Umineko is about a girl who wanted to communicate her love to a boy that she couldn't see for the last six years due to certain tragicomic circumstances. And she chose the most ineffective way to do it, because she didn't even know what she really wanted herself.
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Old 2012-06-25, 17:55   Link #29316
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...Well said, Jan-Poo.
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Old 2012-06-25, 18:04   Link #29317
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Having only read his interviews post-knowing answers, I can't actually really appreciate or recognise where trolls. Got any good examples?
Um...of the top of my head, there was this thing in the EP6 interview where he said 'I think we're going to give out a pretty merciless answer in EP7', obviously indicating at the red herring in the Tea Party, wanting to make the deception more plausible (although that herring was almost screaming 'FAKE').

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He has the most trouble with this one, and with Kanon's death in EP1. For this one, he presents 3 possibilities.
All three (except maybe for the third one) are terribly ridiculous. Letter openers? What is that, like, the small bombs' cousin? If so, where was the envelope, or a ton other stuff, including the fact that it's ridiculous?

Quote:
Indeed. His version of Rosa is even more batshit crazy than Yasu is in "the official explanation". Although you have to admit that Rosa shows more signs of mental instability than any other possible culprit. Certainly she shows a lot more signs of mental problems than Kanon and Shannon do.
Rosa doesn't have mental problems, her behavior can be explained very easily. She does love Maria, but she just can't help being reminded by her growth that she's been abandoned by the man she loved, and being pretty young it is painful to know her love life has to end for the sake of her daughter, plus her company having all sorts of trouble, and her financial difficulties, and all of that makes her go wild on Maria. Well, she's done many inexcusable things, but I think she's sane enough, she's just way too stressed.

The Yasu theory isn't as ridiculous, because it is based on a human being who had an abnormal life and difficulties understanding itself, not even having a gender as an identity, and well, in the context of Umineko and a fictional story, if you're willing to accept some far-fetching, it's acceptable.

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I honestly think he just likes to be clear and thorough. But yeah he takes things to a level far beyond what is needed.
Exactly. He's trying to impress. Being clear and thorough doesn't mean taking nine hours explaining something that could be explained just as well (if not better) in, let's say, twenty minutes at best.

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Youtube mainly like whenever I post anything even remotely ShKanon I always get one of his supporters saying to me "SHKANON ISNT RAEL IT IS A LIE BY RYUKUSHI07 DUMBASSSSSSSSSSS!!! JST WATCH KNOWNOMORES VID TO NOW TRUTH!!!" of course I am exaggerating this but you get the point. I just really hate people telling me my theory is wrong when they never even took the time to actually make a theory and just blindly obeyed someone telling them what the answer so they are huge hypocrites.
Yeah, I've seen some of that happening in YouTube, god forbid if someone dares oppose that theory. It's really sad to see how people go on and accept what seems to be the 'general concesus' or an impressive theory which seems plausible just because of the nine hours duration when the series' whole point was everyone having their own truth. Of course, disagreeing with that is perfectly understandable even for those who like Umineko, and by no means does it imply one would have to enforce it in their everyday life, but saying 'I've totally nailed Umineko' by denying it's very essence, and what is more, parroting someone else's lame theory is really pretentious to say the least.

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...But this sort of makes me wonder how stupid everyone can possibly be. I mean, surely Kanon wasn't a thing that was actually going on in real life that anybody credible among the servants believed. If you asked one of the many Fukuin servants who were still employed but not on Rokkenjima on Oct. 4-6, 1986, they would presumably tell you that in addition to Genji, there was one Fukuin servant on the island. They would know this. Or, at the very least, the way Shannon and Kanon behave would not seem "right" to them, as Shannon and Kanon are highly idealized. While Battler might not necessarily know this himself, and would have to figure it out, anybody willing to do even a tiny bit of research into the whole Rokkenjima Incident thing would have been able to talk to one of the many servants who had worked there in the early 80s.

That and, um, confirm that no such person as Kanon ever actually existed at Fukuin (which ep8 at least suggests someone may have actually done), unless Genji doctored the records. And I don't see why he would bother, since he was in control of that and probably wasn't expecting anyone to start looking into Kanon after everyone mysteriously exploded.
I think the answer to that would be the fact that Kanon didn't start working in Rokenjima with another batch of servants as it happened with Yasu in the beggining or is implied that usually happened, but went by himself (it's clearly stated when Shannon cooks him up). Well, I guess that might cause some slight misunderstandings with new servants who were just at the Fukuin house, but those could be overcomed somehow (but I really believe it's just a slight carelessness on Ryukishi's part).

Other than that, I don't see why the other Fukuin servants would be aware of what the shift program was at the day of the conference or why the should be able to tell you which servants were there or not. After all, since servants come and go and stay just for two years, I don't think there was any servant working at Rokenjima who had any means of supsecting Kanon wasn't really at the Fukuin house. It's a little careless of Ryukishi as I said above, but not a total screwup that can't work no matter what.

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Besides, it's easier to believe he's shifty or incompetent with respect to contradicting the red than to believe the red is true and he's meta-trolling to an extent that defies all common sense.
I don't think he did it out of incompetence, he just used it in a really, really dirty way which ended up rendering most of it unreliable, because it was put there just for the purpose to make things more tricky for readers.

Well, but actually, for me, and I'm speaking only for myself now, the red made things clearer when I actually figured out the Shkanon thingy. Like, oh, yeah, that right there is a trap wanting to make you think this and that, and it sort of helped become more positive that my theory was actually right.

And by the way, KnownNoMore's 'favorite' argument about the red disproving the Shkannon theory, because of the 'people' 'bodies' 'personalities' mumbo-jumbo can easily be explained in a more rational fashioned by saying that the red is Beato's chew toy, and she can do whatever she wants with it, which I think can be supported more adequately by the actual story.

But, yeah, Ryukishi is just a doujin creator. Maybe his works can be endlessly fun to read and dangerously addictive, but no, he's nowhere close to an evil genious like that.

P.S: Wow, I really type slow....So many posts were made until I finished this wall of text it makes me feel like I'm totally coming out of the blue...
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Old 2012-06-25, 18:22   Link #29318
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the most ridiculous part of his theory is explaining the Ep 6 Logic Error.
ShKanon explanation: After going into the closet Kanon "killed" himself and became Shannon
His explanation: Erika shot Kanon through the door.

Now I tried to go against him by saying. Erika never had a gun in her possession when she entered the mansion. Never is it mentioned she had a gun of any kind. He then responded saying that the Meta scene explains it because she shot him. So pretty much he violated Knox

Knox's 8th It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.

There is also one thing I am wondering. Isn't Erika a walking contradiction. She is able to say in Red she is the detective and also say she is the killer.
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Old 2012-06-25, 18:44   Link #29319
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Originally Posted by Asuka0NK View Post
the most ridiculous part of his theory is explaining the Ep 6 Logic Error.
ShKanon explanation: After going into the closet Kanon "killed" himself and became Shannon
His explanation: Erika shot Kanon through the door.
The way you're phrasing it doesn't make the official solution seem less ridiuclous, but seriously, his explanation of the logic error was the first thing of his theory I had heard, and it had me holding my stomach laughing.

Seriously, how defeated would that guy feel if confronted Renall's masterpiece of a theory explaining the logic error (see:EP6 thread)?

Quote:
Now I tried to go against him by saying. Erika never had a gun in her possession when she entered the mansion. Never is it mentioned she had a gun of any kind. He then responded saying that the Meta scene explains it because she shot him. So pretty much he violated Knox

Knox's 8th It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.
The guy didn't hesitate to render Ryukishi07 outright false in order for him to be right, did you think he'd be afraid of Knox? Come on now.

And by the way, let's say we accept that she shot him. WHY DUNNIT? Why the hell would Erika shoot Kanon in the closet? Or how did she know he was in the closet in the first place? Or where did she acquire the gun? Or how could she be sure that she wouldn't miss him since she couldn't actually see him?

The whole premise of this is ridiculous. But I guess KnownNoMore knows best than Knox and common sense.

Quote:
There is also one thing I am wondering. Isn't Erika a walking contradiction. She is able to say in Red she is the detective and also say she is the killer.
Erika doesn't make the detective proclamation in EP6, meaning she doesn't have the 'rank' of the detective for that Episode by Knox's standards. Therefore, she can be the murderer.

Now, when she makes her self introduction and says 'I'm the detective' in red, she just states something that is true about herself, Erika is a detetective, but that doesn't really apply on the game boards and doesn't need to be thought trough to much. It's just Erika being blue.
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Old 2012-06-25, 19:06   Link #29320
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All three (except maybe for the third one) are terribly ridiculous. Letter openers? What is that, like, the small bombs' cousin? If so, where was the envelope, or a ton other stuff, including the fact that it's ridiculous?
I meant that in other words they used a couple of the 7 stakes; they are in fact ornamental letter openers (IIRC...).

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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
Other than that, I don't see why the other Fukuin servants would be aware of what the shift program was at the day of the conference or why the should be able to tell you which servants were there or not. After all, since servants come and go and stay just for two years, I don't think there was any servant working at Rokenjima who had any means of supsecting Kanon wasn't really at the Fukuin house. It's a little careless of Ryukishi as I said above, but not a total screwup that can't work no matter what.
Yes, a lot of hand waving is possible when Mr. Coverup (a.k.a. Genji) is involved.

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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
The guy didn't hesitate to render Ryukishi07 outright false in order for him to be right, did you think he'd be afraid of Knox? Come on now.
He should since it's in red! I know he's aware that Erika in EP6 violates Knox's 1st and doesn't like it.
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